Guardian: Welsh town showered with EU cash votes to Leave the EU
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If the stay platform would have been built over 'we're going to make a far better deal with EU' and then withing 24 hours Cameron would have backtracked saying 'lolz, that was just for votes, we will have the same deal instead', then those right wing cnuts would have been right on asking for an another referendum.
That wouldn't make them less cnuts, but would have been almost right. For once.
You are not understanding that, by ruthless bargaining of our own, we do not have to accept levy's imposed on us, or otherwise projects worth trillions will be at risk causing massive financial implications.
Collectively we can choose to either drag the European economy into hell with us, or we can choose to be sensible and negotiate on terms mutually favorable. Our corporation would not accept carrying the cost of imposed extra expenses, and neither would our customers, but if projects have deadlines to meet which could lead to the ruin of overseas customers who are committed, the EU would be responsible. See how entangled this mes is?
Jonnymufc, who voted Leave makes detailed explanation on why he did
I've only read a couple of pages of this thread but can see the obvious strong majority remain support so thought I'd try and explain why I voted leave whilst simultaneously not being a xenophobic moron.
Sorry to begin slightly narcissisticly but a bit about me. I have a degree in law, I live in London, I'm 32 with 2 young kids, I'm Irish but have lived in England most of my life, I'm the son of immigrants, I'm reasonably off but not rich by any means. Not the typical leave voter being portrayed at present it's fair to say.
This is why I voted leave in the context of the major areas of argument:
- Immigration: I simply can't get my head around people's arguments on immigration, to be honest. I have voted leave because I believe in a fair policy that allows everyone, regardless of nationality, a fair crack at coming here. We desperately need immigration, but the point is we can choose to follow a policy which can be tailored to our needs as a country. Yes, some closet racists voted because they think 'them foreigners' will stop coming but thankfully they're utterly wrong. As a side issue to this, why did the UK not take anywhere near as many Syrian refugees as other major nations? Simply because the government had to be seen to be 'tough on immigration' when really they would have been the right people to help. I'm aware that there is every possibility we'll now enter the EEA but at least the possibility of a better system now exists.
The Economy - I'll be brief on this. The time since the result became clear has for me been a microcosm of what will ultimately happen. Short term panic and instability, followed by the underlying strength in the economy leading to recovery (the pound and FTSE have already recovered much of the ground lost initially but everyone in the remain camp keeps referring the 'worst since 1985' stat). The UK is the world's 5th largest economy, the ripple effects shown worldwide show just how much influence the country has. The isolation scaremongering simply won't happen (and again we may end up in the EEA).
Sovereignty - This is what my absolute key issue is. It's an argument that had been made and never answered satisfactorily for me. The government of the day MUST be able to make the decisions that are best for the people they govern. It's the purpose of government! I'm not saying that no decisions made by the European Commission or Council have been correct/needed. I'm not saying the UK hadn't agreed to many of the measures. However, if I and others fundamentally disagreed with an EU edict then we can do ZERO about either changing it or even influencing the decision-making process.
The EU has been so dogmatic about reform for many years and the reason for this is that it is unable to change due to the enormous consensus required for it to happen! 28 countries have to unanimously or by large majority agree (depending on the decision). The variety of vested interests inevitably results in the status quo being maintained and the institutions therefore have to wait for everyone to 'catch up' before anything can change.
The next few years will undoubtedly see massive upheaval but I genuinely believe that what will emerge will be a happier, more prosperous nation that will be a force for good. I was very torn because I see loads of good things about the EU but I'm happy with the choice made and I do believe we'll still be far more 'in' than many remainers currently believe.
Really interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
Sorry to begin slightly narcissisticly but a bit about me. I have a degree in law, I live in London, I'm 32 with 2 young kids, I'm Irish but have lived in England most of my life, I'm the son of immigrants, I'm reasonably off but not rich by any means. Not the typical leave voter being portrayed at present it's fair to say.
This is why I voted leave in the context of the major areas of argument:
- Immigration: I simply can't get my head around people's arguments on immigration, to be honest. I have voted leave because I believe in a fair policy that allows everyone, regardless of nationality, a fair crack at coming here. We desperately need immigration, but the point is we can choose to follow a policy which can be tailored to our needs as a country. Yes, some closet racists voted because they think 'them foreigners' will stop coming but thankfully they're utterly wrong. As a side issue to this, why did the UK not take anywhere near as many Syrian refugees as other major nations? Simply because the government had to be seen to be 'tough on immigration' when really they would have been the right people to help. I'm aware that there is every possibility we'll now enter the EEA but at least the possibility of a better system now exists.
The Economy - I'll be brief on this. The time since the result became clear has for me been a microcosm of what will ultimately happen. Short term panic and instability, followed by the underlying strength in the economy leading to recovery (the pound and FTSE have already recovered much of the ground lost initially but everyone in the remain camp keeps referring the 'worst since 1985' stat). The UK is the world's 5th largest economy, the ripple effects shown worldwide show just how much influence the country has. The isolation scaremongering simply won't happen (and again we may end up in the EEA).
Sovereignty - This is what my absolute key issue is. It's an argument that had been made and never answered satisfactorily for me. The government of the day MUST be able to make the decisions that are best for the people they govern. It's the purpose of government! I'm not saying that no decisions made by the European Commission or Council have been correct/needed. I'm not saying the UK hadn't agreed to many of the measures. However, if I and others fundamentally disagreed with an EU edict then we can do ZERO about either changing it or even influencing the decision-making process.
The EU has been so dogmatic about reform for many years and the reason for this is that it is unable to change due to the enormous consensus required for it to happen! 28 countries have to unanimously or by large majority agree (depending on the decision). The variety of vested interests inevitably results in the status quo being maintained and the institutions therefore have to wait for everyone to 'catch up' before anything can change.
The next few years will undoubtedly see massive upheaval but I genuinely believe that what will emerge will be a happier, more prosperous nation that will be a force for good. I was very torn because I see loads of good things about the EU but I'm happy with the choice made and I do believe we'll still be far more 'in' than many remainers currently believe.
Really interested to hear everyone's thoughts.
Scottish Parliament's consent required?
He wasn't the reason that London is as big a player as it is in the finance world. More the other way around, he was picked due to London being as big as it is and it looks like his replacement will be a Brit as well.
They'll surely oppose it right?
Ah, that's quite a bit more explicit than what I'd seen. I take it back. They evidently have lied about many things. Politics...gotta love it.
It doesn't work that way.
What if the extra expense led to the ruin of companies already committed?
Nothing like this has ever occurred before, which is why we cannot suddenly be treated like outcasts. The pressure on the EU from countries reliant on British sales/services would be so eminence, it would be devastating to so many European companies.
Exactly - London is the financial capital so it makes sense for the UK to head up EU financial regulation. We won't be involved in regulation once we leave the EU so the rules will gradually change against London's interest. Banking and financial service firms may then leave.
By the way, Lord Hill's replacement is apparently going to be Valdis Dombrovskis, who is Latvian.
Probably the best post in this thread.
And yes, you will get your own trade agreement, there will be a lot of huff and puff and chest-pounding from the EU, but ultimately you are too large, important and influental to be left out. You will end up with a deal like Norway \ Switzerland or Iceland. If pigeons on the world scene like us can achieve it, you sure as feck can.
What does that mean to a European MEP who only cares about a federal Europe?
As I said before, you are treating this like a rational economic negotiation. It isn't. Even if everyone in the Commission accepted your argument, and even if you got the deal through the European Council via qualified majority voting through the double majority procedure, you have to convince at least half the European Parliament to accept the terms of the deal. How many European MEPs do you think know anything about business, or will care about your warnings about how companies will collapse? Many of them are the type of socialists we haven't had in Britain, ever.
We're fecked.
Can't you see that this is precisely the reason we need to quit the EU?
There are countless examples of companies being hurt financially by new and unexpected government/ trade regulation. Part of the skill in managing a multinational business is trying to predict future legislative changes... that's why businesses typically want stability, because regulatory change can be costly.
People seem more interested in Damon, who I've seen quoted at least five times in this thread, than the fact Gove and Boris have suddenly gone silent and look like they are shitting themselves.
On the contrary, the fact we were in it meant the British commissioners and staff working in the EU could counter balance some of the madness.
A big part of what we have done while in the EU is protect British businesses by working to stop, or undermine, insane ideas.
Now we're out, now we can't influence what the EU wants to do, the EU will veer off into a direction that will be even worse for us than before. Worse, we have to now negotiate with these people over some kind of new deal.
There won't be single British commissioner, single British vote in the European Council, or a single British MEP there to try and push our cash, or mitigate some of the craziness that comes out of the EuroParliament. Sound economics won't factor into much of what is to come.
In my day job I have had the pleasure of engaging in the passage of EU legislation. I can tell you the worst is very much yet to come. Some of these people who will vote on our deal would happily see the EU go to crap if it meant carbon emissions would drop, and climate change would be controlled.
We should quit the EU cos MEPs know little about business? By that logic we might as well dissolve parliament then.
My God, I can't believe you can say things like this, and still want to be associated with such an organization.
I agree of course. There again pride, nationalism and recession tend to be an explosive mix especially in the old continent. Under such circumstances, it would be wise that on one hand we cover our arse and on the other we should give Boris a hand to get out of the mess he went into. After all each European country is entitled for one big mistake no matter how costly it can be.
Id say give Boris 1-2 concessions however we should make them commit themselves that the only way they have to activate clause 50 is that every country in the Union would agree to hold an individual referendum and every country agree to leave (ie if Scotland says no, then the rest remain). Also Britain would have to commit itself to refund all the money being invested in it in numerous EU projects.
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Indeed and they are all gunningfor the spoils of the City. Loads of you will noan about bankers, but the City drives 12% of our GDP. That probably pays for our NHS bill, but hey ho, ex-London mayor Boris clearly knows best.
It's not a case of "we should quit the EU", democracy has presented the opportunity for a country to quit the EU. The same democracy that gives other nations the same privilege.
Are you saying that the EU is now the ultimate power in the universe? Maybe they should have a death star.
Couldn't this also work the other way around? That this is a warning shot for the EU to relax some of their supranational and most extreme stances? I know that the opposition in countries like Denmark and Finland (and probably several other countries) against the EU is even stronger than in Britain. And if one or two more countries leave, well then the EU isn't all that anymore, and a domino effect will surely follow.
First of all, thank you for a good post and it is extremely refreshing to have some of the minority of Leave voters who have voted for good reasons express their views on this here where as you say the left and the Remain side do dominate a little.
However, at best your vote on the basis you made it is a shot in the dark. You would like a better policy on immigration but you pretty much admit it is unlikely as you mention we will likely be in an EEA and subject to the same conditions we have now. You may be right about the economy or you could be spectacularly wrong, causing misery and lost livelihood to others (not you, you will be fine). We have already lost a capable leader and now we will probably get a more right wing government at least in the short term... but you still trot out the 'force for good' line. Really? Who are we trusting here? Sovereignty is not much cop if we start repealing progressive laws or push even further into a selfish society. Make no mistake, you have voted on the side of the bigoted and intolerant and only won because of them. I am sure you are not one, but do you know what you have kicked into life? How long will it take to settle this into the steady state you foresee and who loses in the mean time? Probably not you, probably not me if I am honest, but there could be a very tough time ahead for the poorer in this country.
But - I hope you have called it correctly, and am looking forwards.
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Well said, it'll be largely ignored here though. The "remainers" won't listen to posts like yours because they make too much sense
Its not a question of whether I like it. As I said before, I voted in my self-interest. If you can stop someone who you know, unrestrained, would be damaging to you, wouldn't you want the power to stop them? That was the whole point in British foreign policy since we joined. At every stage the British government has worked to undermine EU decision making. That is why we pushed for enlargement, because we realised making it bigger would make it harder for them to agree on things. Then when they introduced qualified majority voting and co-decision, we did other things, got other exemptions to protect ourselves.
People may like to think Britain run by imbeciles, but successive British governments and Foreign Office mandarins have adopted the stance they have to protect the British people. Now we are no longer able to do that. It will take all our wit to try and work out how to protect ourselves, and continue to thrive.
Do you really believe that? You are Norwegian. You must have seen how religiously committed some of these people are to 'the European Project'. They have built their lives around it, never mind their careers. If the EU was going to change it would have done so when the financial crisis devastated Southern Europe. It would've done so when a million migrants turned up in Germany. The EU makes lip service to change and then it pushes for 'more Europe'. That is its raison d'etre.
Britain has always been there to counterbalance that. Without us the forces of Eurofederalism will be totally unrestrained.
No I dont believe that they will do it willingly, just for the reasons you state. But I also firmly believe that if they take a turn for the even more Eurofederalistic they will loose several more countries in "brexit" scenarios. And for many of the reasons you write the EU needs to have their wings clipped, they have grown into a supranational monster, and like one poster stated basically all that is missing is a death star.
"join us or die! *heavy laboured breathing follows*"
Please stop with the bullshit. I can't say anything about Denmark but over here in Finland the opposition is a lot smaller than in Britain, about one in three Finns think Finland should leave the EU.
Yeah I think the EU knows for sure now that it needs to change if it is to survive.
Really? I think I read an article about opposition to the EU being on the rise in Finland.
Moment, I will try and find it.
On second thought that might have been Sweden though.
Anyways, here is an article showing the euroscepticism in Europe by numbers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-opposition-to-the-eu-in-france-a7069766.html
FTHE dropped much lower in May.
Don't worry, we're not fecking agreeing to leaving the EU.
Completely agree.
That look pretty much summed up the frustration of every Remain supporter. Also it's pretty dishearten(Although not surprising)that Dreda Say Mitchell at no point thought about the wider impact of voting to leave.
Oh didn't you hear mate the Conservatives are going to do what they've got to do, so.............
Why are all these things just coming out now, I don't understand
To be honest I think that was about the split in the UK until very recently, then they just kept hammering this immigration point and it snowballed.
Yeah it seemed that way to me too.
Because nobody knows the fecking lawWhy are all these things just coming out now, I don't understand
In all due respect, we're talking about changes on a biblical scale here.