[roonster09]

In that particular post, neither really. He was more taking a side against posters, or poster, as he feels that any disapproval of Bruno’s game can only be a result of him not being your favourite player. Also, even if that were true, it then implies that he is ‘not your favourite player’ for reasons other than the footballing ones you give in your very arguments on the matter. Perhaps he thinks we are anti-beards or something.

No I think few are hypocrites based on which player we are discussing.

From this to defend one player to "G+A will.be thrown at me"

The Scholes that scored loads of goals every year did not control football matches, and the one that controlled football matches didn’t score loads of goals. People want Pogba to be Zidane, Xavi and Kanté all at the same time. There would be no need for other midfielders if that was the case. A midfielder who has 23 G+A by the first week in February could never be the problem. If we are conceding too many or don’t have control, the other midfielders need to sort it out.

 

[Rozay]

Is it nonsense? From "player who contributed 26 goals + assists" is never a problem to "people just go with G+A" just because player in discussion changed.

Ofcourse ball retention should be used alongside the role player plays and the system. Go and check how KdB's ball retention improved once he played under possession oriented manager.

Yes.

You have literally just put quotation marks around your own words as if they were mine. Why are you quoting something that YOU have said over and over again as if it is somehow contradictory to a point that I have made numerous times about jot being a fan of statistical output?

As for the rest, I’d rather discuss what is in front of me. If we bring in another manager and Bruno keeps the ball better, then I obviously won’t have a problem with him not keeping the ball well enough. Just like if we bring in Pep and Scott McTominay learns to pass a football, then I won’t hold being unable to pass a football against him! But for now…

 

[roonster09]

Yes.

You have literally just put quotation marks around your own words as if they were mine. Why are you quoting something that YOU have said over and over again as if it is somehow contradictory to a point that I have made numerous times about jot being a fan of statistical output?

As for the rest, I’d rather discuss what is in front of me. If we bring in another manager and Bruno keeps the ball better, then I obviously won’t have a problem with him not keeping the ball well enough. Just like if we bring in Pep and Scott McTominay learns to pass a football, then I won’t hold being unable to pass a football against him! But for now…

You made that post, not me. One mistake, it's not 26 goals and assists. It's 23. Maybe that changes everything.

 

[Rozay]

No I think few are hypocrites based on which player we are discussing.

From this to defend one player to "G+A will.be thrown at me"

The Scholes that scored loads of goals every year did not control football matches, and the one that controlled football matches didn’t score loads of goals. People want Pogba to be Zidane, Xavi and Kanté all at the same time. There would be no need for other midfielders if that was the case. A midfielder who has 23 G+A by the first week in February could never be the problem. If we are conceding too many or don’t have control, the other midfielders need to sort it out.

Well I’d need to see the context of that post, but still, it is one post in a boring and long conversation on this matter where I have made my views clear a number of times on statistical analysis of midfielders. If you like, I can also dig up several of them. And then several of yours to the contrary.

You are just generally tiring, and a large part of why I have been out of the performance threads this season due to some sort of engineering of this position that I am not allowed to have a view on Bruno because something, something Paul Pogba.

So despite the fact that Bruno is not great at keeping possession, it is somehow not a valid gripe for me to voice, because he’s not my ‘favourite player’ or something.

 

[roonster09]

Well I’d need to see the context of that post, but still, it is one post in a boring and long conversation on this matter where I have made my views clear a number of times on statistical analysis of midfielders. If you like, I can also dig up several of them. And then several of yours to the contrary.

Now from "not my post" to "I need Context". Context is, one was your favourite player and you used stats to defend him as he was productive that season. Now that other player was signed and he was used as a stick to beat your favourite player, it turned into "stats don't matter".

Oh go ahead and dig my posts where I used stats to back up my posts and defend Pogba. Should be fun.

 

[Rozay]

Now from "not my post" to "I need Context". Context is, one was your favourite player and you used stats to defend him as he was productive that season. Now that other player was signed and he was used as a stick to beat your favourite player, it turned into "stats don't matter".

Oh go ahead and dig my posts where I used stats to back up my posts and defend Pogba. Should be fun.

Well perhaps I didn’t remember making a singular post years ago? No, could never be that, of course. The fact is, which I have voiced numerous times in numerous threads - I have a preference of ball handling and other intangibles to assess footballers rather than statistics, unless they are strikers. As expressed in the Lukaku thread, for example. I cannot be bothered to find all of my posts on the topic though, so you can take this one, my post, as further clarification.

 

[roonster09]

Well perhaps I didn’t remember making a singular post years ago? No, could never be that, of course. The fact is, which I have voiced numerous times in numerous threads - I have a preference of ball handling and other intangibles to assess footballers rather than statistics, unless they are strikers. As expressed in the Lukaku thread, for example. I cannot be bothered to find all of my posts on the topic though, so you can take this one, my post, as further clarification.

Yeah surely, that's the reason. Nothing to do with player in discussion.

No point taking any post as reference.

 

[roonster09]

No, it's a sense check, because I see people comparing Bruno will all manner of midfielders, even those tasked playing in double pivot roles for their clubs. Bruno certainly was an attacking midfielder, but he has been progressing further and further up the pitch in recent months. It's not been uncommon to see him as a forward in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-4 for large periods of games.

Bruno's creativity isn't really in doubt. He's been a "prolific" creator this season too. That's his biggest strength and what I would want our next manager to really tap into.

His goal scoring isn't particularly elite though. FBref only have him in the 69th percentile of similar players for non-penalty goals per 90 over the last 365 days. Both this season and last season he's in the 72nd percentile for similar players in the PL. And none of this is adjusting the comparisons to be more relevant for the shift in his role where he's essentially often playing as one of a pair of centre forwards.

The above comparisons, as well as the raw numbers of Bruno only scoring 23 non-penalty goals in from 97 appearances for United, as well as 4 in 29 games for Portugal in that time, make me comfortable labelling him not prolific. If that's prolific goal-scoring for you, then so be it.

Bruno isn't compared to like players, 69 percentile also includes Wingers and in modern game wide forwards are biggest goal threats.

 

[Jeppers7]

Well perhaps I didn’t remember making a singular post years ago? No, could never be that, of course. The fact is, which I have voiced numerous times in numerous threads - I have a preference of ball handling and other intangibles to assess footballers rather than statistics, unless they are strikers. As expressed in the Lukaku thread, for example. I cannot be bothered to find all of my posts on the topic though, so you can take this one, my post, as further clarification.

I’d back you on this. I’ve seen you make the same post many times about your preference for ball retention and the ‘type’ of number 10 that you prefer. It’s a pretty consistent take.

 

[Rozay]

Yeah surely, that's the reason. Nothing to do with player in discussion.

No point taking any post as reference.

Seeing as this is what we are doing, below are a selection of my very first 10 posts in the very first Bruno thread. It can be seen how it starts and how it changes over time. The last sentence of the last post says it all, because I know this place. But yea, something, something Paul Pogba. Apparently I am now not entitled to form an independent view of a footballer. Feck off.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25312452

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25322571

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25636145

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25680715

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25722984

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25763893

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25781258

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25781384

 

[roonster09]

Seeing as this is what we are doing, below are a selection of my very first 10 posts in the very first Bruno thread. It can be seen how it starts and how it changes over time. The last sentence of the last post says it all, because I know this place. But yea, something, something Paul Pogba. Apparently I am now not entitled to form an independent view of a footballer. Feck off.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25312452

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25322571

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25636145

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25680715

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25722984

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25763893

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25781258

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bruno-fernandes-2020-performances.453043/post-25781384

Thanks for proving my point

Starts with praise and once people started using him as a stick to beat Pogba, changed the tune to "He isn't as good as people think".

Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their opinion, likewise people can call out the hypocritical posts when they see one.

 

[Jeppers7]

Thanks for proving my point

Starts with praise and once people started using him as a stick to beat Pogba, changed the tune to "He isn't as good as people think".

Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their opinion, likewise people can call out the hypocritical posts when they see one.

Weird take

 

[Rozay]

Thanks for proving my point

Starts with praise and once people started using him as a stick to beat Pogba, changed the tune to "He isn't as good as people think".

Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their opinion, likewise people can call out the hypocritical posts when they see one.

If you think those posts prove your point then I give up. It is, as always, your will to make every post about Bruno something to do with Pogba. You’ve actually lost the plot. Do you not recall the state of the Pogba sentiment on here at the time my comments ‘started with praise’? Pogba had been out injured, or should I say - ‘injured’, for a number of months, and the caf had concluded he was going to leave in the January that Bruno joined and the hate for him could not be higher. Not to mention that Pogba then returned from injury to anything but being criticised during the same timeline I started voicing concerns.

You’re failure to consider that perhaps, what I write about Bruno is simply what my observation is of Bruno is childish and makes any conversation with you pointless. You again steamed in, well, snuck in rather with some veiled Pogba insinuation to points that almost everyone would agree have some validity. Get over your fixation.

 

[Rozay]

Weird take

Extremely weird take.

 

[roonster09]

If you think those posts prove your point then I give up. It is, as always, your will to make every post about Bruno something to do with Pogba. You’ve actually lost the plot. Do you not recall the state of the Pogba sentiment on here at the time my comments ‘started with praise’? Pogba had been out injured, or should I say - ‘injured’, for a number of months, and the caf had concluded he was going to leave in the January that Bruno joined and the hate for him could not be higher. Not to mention that Pogba then returned from injury to anything but being criticised during the same timeline I started voicing concerns.

You’re failure to consider that perhaps, what I write about Bruno is simply what my observation is of Bruno is childish and makes any conversation with you pointless. You again steamed in, well, snuck in rather with some veiled Pogba insinuation to points that almost everyone would agree have some validity. Get over your fixation.

I didn't even quote you, i just called out hypocrisy and you are losing your shit.

Maybe time to go to Pogba thread to cry about how "hated" Pogba is.

 

[roonster09]

Weird take

No, but not surprising.

 

[Rozay]

I didn't even quote you, i just called out hypocrisy and you are losing your shit.

Maybe time to go to Pogba thread to cry about how "hated" Pogba is.

You didn’t quote me, you just quoted things that I said, and then attached it to some sentence about favourites or whatever. I chose to respond to you directly.

And again, you have failed to resist an arbitrary mention of Paul Pogba. How about you go to the Pogba thread yourself.

 

[roonster09]

You didn’t quote me, you just quoted things that I said, and then attached it to some sentence about favourites or whatever. I chose to respond to you directly.

And again, you have failed to resist an arbitrary mention of Paul Pogba. How about you go to the Pogba thread yourself.

If someone comes up with hypocrital take in Pogba thread, I will post there. Right now it's all happening in Bruno's thread.

So how a player with 23 G+A can't be a problem but player with 30+ can be? Well don't have to answer it. Just say name is not Pogba.

 

[Rozay]

If someone comes up with hypocrital take in Pogba thread, I will post there. Right now it's all happening in Bruno's thread.

So how a player with 23 G+A can't be a problem but player with 30+ can be? Well don't have to answer it. Just say name is not Pogba.

Good for you, post whatever you want in the Pogba thread, I’m not sure why you need to inform me.

You pulling out a random post to basically say that I am a hypocrite because my view on Pogba is that he is a great player because he has (apparently) great stats whereas my view on Bruno is the opposite is childish, misleading and ridiculous given we have discussed this topic at length over a substantial amount of posts. Your actual take on my appreciation of Pogba probably isn’t ‘because he has amazing G+A’ anyway, I know and you know that we have discussed the very topic often enough for you to know that. So you finding a singular post and using it to highlight the hypocrisy of my views is pathetic.

Of all my posts on here, you spotting me calling out an over emphasis on stats in today’s game as some sort of hypocritical view, as of course, I spend all this time defending Pogba on the basis of his G+A is simply bollocks and just false. I prefer Pogba as a player for the same reason I think Messi is better than Ronaldo. And more importantly, I am entitled to prefer whichever player I choose to and don’t need you to police it.

 

[lost7]

Thanks for proving my point

Starts with praise and once people started using him as a stick to beat Pogba, changed the tune to "He isn't as good as people think".

Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their opinion, likewise people can call out the hypocritical posts when they see one.

Your obsession with Pogba is a bit funny...

 

[roonster09]

Good for you, post whatever you want in the Pogba thread, I’m not sure why you need to inform me.

You pulling out a random post to basically say that I am a hypocrite because my view on Pogba is that he is a great player because he has (apparently) great stats whereas my view on Bruno is the opposite is childish, misleading and ridiculous given we have discussed this topic at length over a substantial amount of posts. Your actual take on my appreciation of Pogba probably isn’t ‘because he has amazing G+A’ anyway, I know and you know that we have discussed the very topic often enough for you to know that. So you finding a singular post and using it to highlight the hypocrisy of my views is pathetic.

Of all my posts on here, you spotting me calling out an over emphasis on stats in today’s game as some sort of hypocritical view, as of course, I spend all this time defending Pogba on the basis of his G+A is simply bollocks and just false. I prefer Pogba as a player for the same reason I think Messi is better than Ronaldo. And more importantly, I am entitled to prefer whichever player I choose to and don’t need you to police it.

I just read all your posts as digging bigger hole. No I don't believe you prefer Pogba because of his goals but you conveniently used stats to defend one player and now you are saying the stats that you used to defend Pogba are of no use because it's not Pogba.

I'm not policing anything and I didn't even ask you to stop it, or quote you. I felt there are posts that are hypocritical based on which player is discussed and I stated that. As simple as that.

 

[roonster09]

Your obsession with Pogba is a bit funny...

Actually funny bit is how clueless you are about my views on Pogba. Unlike others, i defend both Pogba and Bruno.

 

[lost7]

Actually funny bit is how clueless you are about my views on Pogba. Unlike others, i defend both Pogba and Bruno.

Who cares whether you defend pogba or not, the point is this is a Bruno thread so let's talk about him. That was one of the most random way to bring up a player in a conversation that I've ever seen

 

[roonster09]

Who cares whether you defend pogba or not, the point is this is a Bruno thread so let's talk about him. That was one of the most random way to bring up a player in a conversation that I've ever seen

If you don't care then stop quoting and coming up with nonsense.

It's not random, just because you don't have clue doesn't mean it's random.

 

[Rozay]

I just read all your posts as digging bigger hole. No I don't believe you prefer Pogba because of his goals but you conveniently used stats to defend one player and now you are saying the stats that you used to defend Pogba are of no use because it's not Pogba.

I'm not policing anything and I didn't even ask you to stop it, or quote you. I felt there are posts that are hypocritical based on which player is discussed and I stated that. As simple as that.

How about the fact that you don’t think I prefer Pogba because of his goals tells you a little more about why I would defend him rather than forensically examining my post without a wider context? Taking one post out of several on a player and saying ‘you defended him because of this’ is silly. My views on Pogba are what they are, and if I discuss him, it is ultimately in the context of those views. Which you are aware of.

If you were not being so fixated on some sort of agenda, you would see that I am not criticising Bruno because he scores goals. OBVIOUSLY, scoring goals (and making them) in and of itself is not a fecking problem. Ultimately, MY TAKE, is that too many other things are disregarded due to G+A. Things that are too important to me to disregard, yet I know that in this current era, players are often defined by G+A almost exclusively. A common sense analysis would certainly not conclude that I am therefore some sort of hypocrite because I praised another player for scoring goals. It is a weak attempt to build an agenda, supported by an arbitrary post.

I have no agenda against Bruno. I am not digging a bigger hole, I am not in one to begin with. My posts served the simple purpose of showing that my views on Bruno are simply a result of watching football matches. Nothing hidden beneath that. I was more positive, and the more I watched, concerns grew. The very same concerns I voiced when he was 10 games into his United career as I am voicing now after 100. Concerns that I am entitled to have independently of anything to do with Paul Pogba, who you seem intent of making every Bruno post about. Now in order to get out of this, I would seemingly need to sign off my posts with some sort of summary of things I don’t like about Pogba, or say ‘Pogba does this too’ in orser to satisfy you.

 

[roonster09]

How about the fact that you don’t think I prefer Pogba because of his goals tells you a little more about why I would defend him rather than forensically examining my post without a wider context? Taking one post out of several on a player and saying ‘you defended him because of this’ is silly. My views on Pogba are what they are, and if I discuss him, it is ultimately in the context of those views. Which you are aware of.

If you were not being so fixated on some sort of agenda, you would see that I am not criticising Bruno because he scores goals. OBVIOUSLY, scoring goals (and making them) in and of itself is not a fecking problem. Ultimately, MY TAKE, is that too many other things are disregarded due to G+A. Things that are too important to me to disregard, yet I know that in this current era, players are often defined by G+A almost exclusively. A common sense analysis would certainly not conclude that I am therefore some sort of hypocrite because I praised another player for scoring goals. It is a weak attempt to build an agenda, supported by an arbitrary post.

I have no agenda against Bruno. I am not digging a bigger hole, I am not in one to begin with. My posts served the simple purpose of showing that my views on Bruno are simply a result of watching football matches. Nothing hidden beneath that. I was more positive, and the more I watched, concerns grew. The very same concerns I voiced when he was 10 games into his United career as I am voicing now after 100. Concerns that I am entitled to have independently of anything to do with Paul Pogba, who you seem intent of making every Bruno post about. Now in order to get out of this, I would seemingly need to sign off my posts with some sort of summary of things I don’t like about Pogba, or say ‘Pogba does this too’ in orser to satisfy you.

Agenda?

You talk about context and when the context like playing position coupled with playing style of manager is mentioned, you come up with "yeah whatever, don't give me all that". I remember having the same conversation and when I posted Ole's interview when he described how he wants his team to play (which is playing forward passes) you just played it down.

Just to back to previous posts, how can one player create, defend and control the game? (Don't want to quote the whole post again). What are other players for then?

Also Bruno isn't just goals and assists player, he creates most chances than any player in PL and if we go by quality of chances in top 3 in PL.

You think your posts on other players have nothing to do with Bruno, I feel it does. Maybe should prepare venn diagram to see the how many posters who are very critical on Bruno are the same ones who are very protective of Pogba. Well at least I know few for sure.

 

[Rozay]

Agenda?

You talk about context and when the context like playing position coupled with playing style of manager is mentioned, you come up with "yeah whatever, don't give me all that". I remember having the same conversation and when I posted Ole's interview when he described how he wants his team to play (which is playing forward passes) you just played it down.

Just to back to previous posts, how can one player create, defend and control the game? (Don't want to quote the whole post again). What are other players for then?

Also Bruno isn't just goals and assists player, he creates most chances than any player in PL and if we go by quality of chances in top 3 in PL.

You think your posts on other players have nothing to do with Bruno, I feel it does. Maybe should prepare venn diagram to see the how many posters who are very critical on Bruno are the same ones who are very protective of Pogba. Well at least I know few for sure.

But I haven’t asked Bruno to defend and control the game. I’ve asked him to keep the ball better, link play and also support his midfield more (which he has done more of this season). These are the jobs of a #10, not the ‘other players’. He is not a centre forward who has fulfilled every expectation so long as he scores and assists. Which is why there are pretty much no other 10s who post as impressive G+A stats as he does. Either that is because he’s the first good 10 the world has ever seen, or there is a lot more to the role.

You referenced some quotes from Ole and I did mot play them down. Ole’s views on the game are his and mine are mine. If Ole doesn’t mind his players turning over the ball very often, that doesn’t mean I need to have the same appreciation of it. And if Bruno is only turning the ball over frequently due to Ole’s instructions then that is the only context I can judge his performances on. Why on Earth would I come in here and discuss hypothetical performances in an alternate reality where Pep was our coach? I also cannot believe that any coach would want their 10 to turn over possession as often anyway.

And I know what you think of my posts regarding other players, this is the reason we are having this argument. Only ai also have the privilege of being the person who makes them. I presented some posts to you from the beginning of Bruno’s career here after each of his games, and once they became anything less than unilateral praise, you concluded that it is because other people on the forum are bashing Pogba. Basically, and offensively, rendering the observations I began forwarding at the time such as an issue with him turning over the ball as something other than genuinely what my take was on watching a player and in effect, trying to remove my right to watch and form my own opinion of a footballer (which not enough people seem to do, frankly). It is apparently not possible for me to come onto a footy forum and express that I don’t like the frequency at which Bruno turns over the ball and it be seen as an honest observation. Perhaps I don’t have a problem with it after all hey. I made it up because I was upset that posters don’t like Pogba, so I therefore pretended that I don’t like Bruno losing possession to balance it. Yeah, that would be the logical conclusion.

And so what if you think you know some posters who are more critical of Bruno than they are of Pogba anyway? They are two footballers. Neither of them are related to any of us. It is only that, anything other than it being the other way round of unadulterated praise for Bruno and vitriol for Pogba is something only weirdos do. If I joined the chorus of Bruno worshippers and Pogba bashers, you would have no issue with it, and see no agenda from me. Because seemingly, that is what we are all supposed to do. Anything else is personal.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Maybe should prepare venn diagram to see the how many posters who are very critical on Bruno are the same ones who are very protective of Pogba. Well at least I know few for sure.

They do both represent different ways of looking at football. Technique vs workrate, buildup play vs end product, percentage play vs more measured play, etc. It shouldn't be a surprise that the people who prefer the player type of Martial, VDB, Matic over Rashford, Fred, McTominay would also prefer Pogba over Bruno, and vice versa. It's part of stylistic preferences.

In fact, that same Venn diagram would probably predictably correlate with views of Messi vs Ronaldo.

 

[Rozay]

They do both represent different ways of looking at football. Technique vs workrate, buildup play vs end product, percentage play vs more measured play, etc. It shouldn't be a surprise that the people who prefer the player type of Martial, VDB, Matic over Rashford, Fred, McTominay would also prefer Pogba over Bruno. And vice versa of course.. It's part of stylistic preferences.

In fact, that same Venn diagram would probably predictably correlate with views of Messi vs Ronaldo.

Exactly.

And as I’ve said, I think Messi is/has been comfortably a better player than Ronaldo too. For me, Messi is the best to ever play the game. Bernardo Silva is better than Bruno Fernandes and Iniesta was better than Lampard. All my preferences scored less goals than the other, but I feel all are valid opinions to hold.

 

[roonster09]

But I haven’t asked Bruno to defend and control the game. I’ve asked him to keep the ball better, link play and also support his midfield more (which he has done more of this season). These are the jobs of a #10, not the ‘other players’. He is not a centre forward who has fulfilled every expectation so long as he scores and assists. Which is why there are pretty much no other 10s who post as impressive G+A stats as he does. Either that is because he’s the first good 10 the world has ever seen, or there is a lot more to the role.

You referenced some quotes from Ole and I did mot play them down. Ole’s views on the game are his and mine are mine. If Ole doesn’t mind his players turning over the ball very often, that doesn’t mean I need to have the same appreciation of it. And if Bruno is only turning the ball over frequently due to Ole’s instructions then that is the only context I can judge his performances on. Why on Earth would I come in here and discuss hypothetical performances in an alternate reality where Pep was our coach? I also cannot believe that any coach would want their 10 to turn over possession as often anyway.

And I know what you think of my posts regarding other players, this is the reason we are having this argument. Only ai also have the privilege of being the person who makes them. I presented some posts to you from the beginning of Bruno’s career here after each of his games, and once they became anything less than unilateral praise, you concluded that it is because other people on the forum are bashing Pogba. Basically, and offensively, rendering the observations I began forwarding at the time such as an issue with him turning over the ball as something other than genuinely what my take was on watching a player and in effect, trying to remove my right to watch and form my own opinion of a footballer (which not enough people seem to do, frankly). It is apparently not possible for me to come onto a footy forum and express that I don’t like the frequency at which Bruno turns over the ball and it be seen as an honest observation. Perhaps I don’t have a problem with it after all hey. I made it up because I was upset that posters don’t like Pogba, so I therefore pretended that I don’t like Bruno losing possession to balance it. Yeah, that would be the logical conclusion.

And so what if you think you know some posters who are more critical of Bruno than they are of Pogba anyway? They are two footballers. Neither of them are related to any of us. It is only that, anything other than it being the other way round of unadulterated praise for Bruno and vitriol for Pogba is something only weirdos do. If I joined the chorus of Bruno worshippers and Pogba bashers, you would have no issue with it, and see no agenda from me. Because seemingly, that is what we are all supposed to do. Anything else is personal.

You didn't say "Bruno doesn't help to control the game" or "Bruno is the reason why we can't control games"?

I will just quote on post and just say lets agree to disagree. IMO you are just repeating/posting all the posts that you argued against just 2 years back (that one player is expected to be Ozil, Pirlo, Yaya).

Spoiler: posts

We play with a 10 but that doesn’t give us the extra man in midfield. Our 10 is a 10 who is more focused on deciding games than controlling them. He’s helped decide a lot of games, so it’s not an automatic negative, but it comes at a cost.

The Pogba on the left thing works a bit better because in practice, he ends up being more of an actual 10. But that too comes at a cost.

The shape of our midfield has been a problem for a while. I made a thread about the shape of our midfield the season before last, when we were winning games after lockdown with Matic, Pogba and Bruno. Matic turns into a centre half, Bruno a centre forward, and Pogba stands in the centre-circle alone. This may well all be tactical decisions of course, but we will find it hard to control a game if our midfield 3 do not regularly play within 10-15 yards of each other at most. Often it will need to be much less than that. Otherwise, we’re basically putting an emphasis on individual ability to just find a way through a couple of players.

We do need to be better building from deeper. But the deeper two need to have a better relationship with the 10 for US as a TEAM to build up better. Only that our 10 is a nominal striker which makes it very hard in today’s game for us to control and build.

Teams that value possession often play 3 in the middle and then even drop a 4th in there in the shape of a false 9 for more control. We did this against Wolves, and it was the first time in about 6 games that we were able to pass through them. You need bodies in the central area to control a game. I personally don’t think we have enough.

So while Bruno is quality in the decisive actions, which help us affect a scoreline, games will be more with our control if we had more presence and passing ability in the middle. I think majority of top teams have greater representation in the middle of the park than us. All I’m saying is my personal preference is for a 10 who occupies different areas and is also quality in different areas, not just the final areas.

I have one more question, you repeatedly called Pogba as the best CM in the world, we didn't dominate or control game against any top team in 6 years, how can a midfielder who can't control the game be a best CM in the world? was it on the player or we couldn't because of how coach set up his team?

 

[roonster09]

They do both represent different ways of looking at football. Technique vs workrate, buildup play vs end product, percentage play vs more measured play, etc. It shouldn't be a surprise that the people who prefer the player type of Martial, VDB, Matic over Rashford, Fred, McTominay would also prefer Pogba over Bruno, and vice versa. It's part of stylistic preferences.

In fact, that same Venn diagram would probably predictably correlate with views of Messi vs Ronaldo.

If we are talking about Bruno vs Thiago/Modric/Kroos I would have agreed. There is nothing measured in Pogba's play, he was criticized a lot for losing the ball and also getting tackled in dangerous areas.

Ofcourse people have preferences but if someone calls Rashford as Lazy arse and then praise Martial for how great his work rate is, then you have to call that as nonsense.

 

[He'sRaldo]

If we are talking about Bruno vs Thiago/Modric/Kroos I would have agreed. There is nothing measured in Pogba's play, he was criticized a lot for losing the ball and also getting tackled in dangerous areas.

Ofcourse people have preferences but if someone calls Rashford as Lazy arse and then praise Martial for how great his work rate is, then you have to call that as nonsense.

Pogba is measured for an AM, which is his natural position. For a CM, he's quite risky. The same way Bruno as an attacker would be perfectly fine, but if we're asking him to contribute as a midfielder with the way he's been playing, he's going to fall short.

The solution should really be to play Bruno as an attacker, let him rack up the stats and be as cavalier as he likes, and play Pogba as an AM (or more like attack minded CM) in his natural position. That way, both players would play with the perfect amount of risk relative to their positions, and we're not constantly asking them to change their games or do things that aren't to their strengths.

 

[roonster09]

Pogba is measured for an AM, which is his natural position. For a CM, he's quite risky. The same way Bruno as an attacker would be perfectly fine, but if we're asking him to contribute as a midfielder with the way he's been playing, he's going to fall short.

The solution should really be to play Bruno as an attacker, let him rack up the stats and be as risky as he likes, and play Pogba as an AM (or more like attack minded CM) in his natural position. That way, both players would play with the perfect amount of risk relative to their positions, and we're not constantly asking them to change their games or do things that aren't to their strengths.

IMO that would be terrible move, just make a decision and drop one if the coach thinks thats the way to go. Bruno has 0 hold up play to play as false 9 or CF. He plays best as AM or as CM in midfield 3, no point playing him as attacker/false 9/CF.

In an ideal set up, would love to see Pogba, Bruno in midfield 3 but we need a coach who can pull this off, someone who makes the team to attack and defend as Unit.

 

[El Jefe]

Center forward, 4-2-4 and usual "can't retain possession"

People who defended their favorite player using goals and assists now come up with "this is G+A era". Posts depends on which player they talk about, different standards for different players.

I must say well done for you derailing the thread with your pointless back and forths to protect your favourite boy. Going back to last season, you've always been sensitive about criticism of Bruno and Rashford and have been completely unwilling to seperate criticism of their performace from their stats.

Everyone knows Bruno delivers great numbers but the other side of that is his poor gameplay for a supposed top class player. Now that his goals have dried up his irresponsible style of play has been put under the spotlight more but this is nothing new as many posters have highlighted.

 

[roonster09]

I must say well done for you derailing the thread with your pointless back and forths to protect your favourite boy. Going back to last season, you've always been sensitive about criticism of Bruno and Rashford and have been completely unwilling to seperate criticism of their performace from their stats.

Everyone knows Bruno delivers great numbers but the other side of that is his poor gameplay for a supposed top class player. Now that his goals have dried up his irresponsible style of play has been put under the spotlight more but this is nothing new as many posters have highlighted.

Favorite boy, says the agenda guy. Goals dried up, nothing else to see, yeah must be his mum who is topping chance created stats and top 3 in expected assists stat. Must be his uncle who has 5 assists in CL this season.

Other posters also failed to see how much coach has an impact coach has on the play style and players giving away possession. I even gave you KdB example but you didn't understand it or didn't want to understand it for obvious reasons.

 

[Rozay]

You didn't say "Bruno doesn't help to control the game" or "Bruno is the reason why we can't control games"?

I will just quote on post and just say lets agree to disagree. IMO you are just repeating/posting all the posts that you argued against just 2 years back (that one player is expected to be Ozil, Pirlo, Yaya).

I have one more question, you repeatedly called Pogba as the best CM in the world, we didn't dominate or control game against any top team in 6 years, how can a midfielder who can't control the game be a best CM in the world? was it on the player or we couldn't because of how coach set up his team?

A 10 doesn’t control a game. He helps control it. Being a third body in the middle and being closer to the other two would help us to control it. He would not, and cannot control a game by himself. Nobody can.

And at the time I called Pogba the best midfielder in the world (which was a period, not 6 years). And I called him that because he has a range of attributes that he was showing at the time that were above competitors. Our team was struggling, but he was the best player and he was showing a great passing range, great skill, creative passes and respectable goals as a CM. Not because he controls the game alone or because he is the league’s leading scorer. Simply because I watched him and I didn’t see any CM who could do it better. Ultimately, it hasn’t worked out on the whole, which is a shame. None if this, of course, has nothing to do with Bruno Fernandes.

 

[roonster09]

A 10 doesn’t control a game. He helps control it. Being a third body in the middle and being closer to the other two would help us to control it. He would not, and cannot control a game by himself. Nobody can.

And at the time I called Pogba the best midfielder in the world (which was a period, not 6 years). And I called him that because he has a range of attributes that he was showing at the time that were above competitors. Our team was struggling, but he was the best player and he was showing a great passing range, great skill, creative passes and respectable goals as a CM. Not because he controls the game alone or because he is the league’s leading scorer. Simply because I watched him and I didn’t see any CM who could do it better. Ultimately, it hasn’t worked out on the whole, which is a shame. None if this, of course, has nothing to do with Bruno Fernandes.

You said he was the best CM in the world after 2019-20 season, after the loss vs Sevilla too. I remember the conversation because I was part of that too, ofcourse supporting Pogba when the Leverkusen fan came up with nonsense like "He took 0.1xg shot, it's a bad decision" "He played long pass when he should have passed the ball sideways". We didn't control any game vs big clubs since Jose was in charge, because we didn't hire managers who believed or knew how to implement that.

10 doesn't control the game, CM doesn't control the game. Team controls the game and the team that is coached by managers who knows how to control the game controls it. It's not by coincidence that managers like Pep always controls the game no matter what midfield they have, same with Klopp.

Anyways I made my point, you made yours. Don't think there is anything left to say.

 

[El Jefe]

Favorite boy, says the agenda guy. Goals dried up, nothing else to see, yeah must be his mum who is topping chance created stats and top 3 in expected assists stat. Must be his uncle who has 5 assists in CL this season.

Other posters also failed to see how much coach has an impact coach has on the play style and players giving away possession. I even gave you KdB example but you didn't understand it or didn't want to understand it for obvious reasons.

I missed the part where Bruno having poor performances and his erratic style of play negatively affecting the team is considered an agenda.

I really don't care to bring KDB into this or Pogba as you've done with Rozay. The thread is a Bruno performance thread and his performances have been poor, its really not that hard to accept if you look at what he's been doing on the pitch.

Ok he tops the chamce creation stats but he's still been poor. That's what you can't seem to grasp.

 

[roonster09]

I missed the part where Bruno having poor performances and his erratic style of play negatively affecting the team is considered an agenda.

I really don't care to bring KDB into this or Pogba as you've done with Rozay. The thread is a Bruno performance thread and his performances have been poor, its really not that hard to accept if you look at what he's been doing on the pitch.

Ok he tops the chamce creation stats but he's still been poor. That's what you can't seem to grasp.

Ofcourse he has been poor in few games, don't think anyone denies that. "If you look at what's happening on the pitch" "can't seem to grasp" says the guy who thinks managers have no impact on how well players retains the possession or controls the game

If saying player is good means saving favourite boy then you are agenda poster for ignoring all the good work done by Bruno.

"I will not bring KdB into this but I will bring Rashford because" again you don't have to answer. It's obvious and also maybe the thread was very complicated for you, let me simplify it for you. The topic was about Rashford's productivity, which means discussion was about goals and assists, which also means we have to bring the goals and assists stats. If you are still struggling to understand, then go back and read the thread again.

 

[Rozay]

You said he was the best CM in the world after 2019-20 season, after the loss vs Sevilla too. I remember the conversation because I was part of that too, ofcourse supporting Pogba when the Leverkusen fan came up with nonsense like "He took 0.1xg shot, it's a bad decision" "He played long pass when he should have passed the ball sideways". We didn't control any game vs big clubs since Jose was in charge, because we didn't hire managers who believed or knew how to implement that.

10 doesn't control the game, CM doesn't control the game. Team controls the game and the team that is coached by managers who knows how to control the game controls it. It's not by coincidence that managers like Pep always controls the game no matter what midfield they have, same with Klopp.

Anyways I made my point, you made yours. Don't think there is anything left to say.

As reasonable as these isolated footballing opinions are, they have nothing to do with me disapproving of how Bruno looks after the ball, which is ultimately the purpose of this random debate. These views are no more valid than a view that Bruno could keep the ball better. I don’t even want to do the whole ‘I praised him too’ thing, because why should I have to, it’s there for all to see, but I included the things I like about Bruno in the very post that started this debate, but my voicing of the things I don’t was somehow greeted with some sort of cynicism.

Ultimately, having assessed the player over 100 games, I’ve always said that I feel Bruno is the 10 the team needed at the time when he joined, but it quickly became clear to me that he will not be the 10 that the team needs to become the best team in the league/Europe. He’s great for an Ole team, but an Ole team isn’t good enough. We likely would control football matches better with a Pep or a Klopp, but having watched Bruno - it is at that point where I feel that it will become more apparent that he isn’t what we need. He simply doesn’t have the skill set from what I’ve seen. I don’t expect him to become David Silva once we get Pep. I’d expect him to be replaced by David Silva once we get Pep. We can say that a certain type of manager can implement controlling football, but they do that with footballers that suit it. The coaches that have reputations for controlling midfields would prefer a Bernardo Silva to Bruno Fernandes is just my opinion. Not a particularly outrageous one either, if just looked at for what it is.

I don’t dislike the guy. But I also don’t think he’s as good as you do. Which I am not being sneaky or indirect about. I’m stating it directly at face value and explaining exactly why, as I have done for two years. There’s nothing more to what I write than what I write.