Genk are better than Celta now? Celta actually have good attacking players.
Dirty, negative football
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
The difference is they are playing AS Monaco and FC Barcelona. The difference is we are playing Anderlecht and Celta Vigo.
I wouldn't say they've been parking the bus. They're just a tactically sound defensive team with top attacking options up front. It's not like they're sitting back and inviting dangerous pressure like us. And they're doing it against top attacking sides like Barca and Monaco. We're doing it against Rostov and Celta.
Fellaini probably started because of his aerial presence (on both ends). Mata needs to be eased back to match fitness, and there is no need to put on the field when we had a 1-0 win from the first leg. If we needed to g for the win, Mata would have likely started.
The level we expect is to be genuinely competing in the league and easily bettering second rate sides like Celta Vigo. With our squad, we should easily be achieving that.
I can't find any reason to justify the way we played today. I understand playing defensively but there are better ways to do it than just parking the bus and inviting pressure onto our defensive back line. Our midfield, was once again, non-existent really. Pogba and Fellaini were happy to sit off their players, without closing them down on most occasions, leaving only Herrera to do any sort of pressing.
On the few occasions that Fellaini and Pogba did press, I thought we had a genuine opportunity to set-up a good counter. But for the life of me, I don't understand why we don't press at all from the midfield and we just wait for them to approach our wings with all the time in the world. Against Chelsea, we pressed them well to win the ball back prior to them reaching our box. Tonight, we weren't playing against Bayern or Real Madrid - we played against the 12th best team in La Liga. We should've showed more grit and fight but it just felt only a few players were up for it tonight.
Bar for those 10 mins after we scored, we were really sub-par and negative and I just hope things will change next season when Jose has another transfer window.
On the few occasions that Fellaini and Pogba did press, I thought we had a genuine opportunity to set-up a good counter. But for the life of me, I don't understand why we don't press at all from the midfield and we just wait for them to approach our wings with all the time in the world. Against Chelsea, we pressed them well to win the ball back prior to them reaching our box. Tonight, we weren't playing against Bayern or Real Madrid - we played against the 12th best team in La Liga. We should've showed more grit and fight but it just felt only a few players were up for it tonight.
Bar for those 10 mins after we scored, we were really sub-par and negative and I just hope things will change next season when Jose has another transfer window.
There's a difference between playing 352 like juventus and Chelsea as a tactic with wingbacks/ wide midfielders to playing everybody behind the half way line including our attacking midfielders. How is this even comparable - the 352 is actually the formation that suits our squad the most; but its significantly different to what we have been doing ; too much respect given to the opposition consistently.
Us winning some titles like this is only covering up holes temperoraily and We will only become a better version of what we are seeing. This is the year we take it easy on Jose; the time we give him the benefits of the doubt of not having his players and so on - but he should really try to be flexible at United - all I wanted was to see something different; instead we get the tried and tested stuff which means his trajectory is almost readable.
Us winning some titles like this is only covering up holes temperoraily and We will only become a better version of what we are seeing. This is the year we take it easy on Jose; the time we give him the benefits of the doubt of not having his players and so on - but he should really try to be flexible at United - all I wanted was to see something different; instead we get the tried and tested stuff which means his trajectory is almost readable.
I don't understand why people get so angry over these defensive tactics. How would you feel if we didn't sit back and tried commiting more men forward, resulting in counterattacks for them, knocking us out? Would you be happy about loosing as long as we tried playing instead of sitting back?
Some people want us to be the current Arsenal team.
If that is your expectation, then you have quite an exaggerated valuation of the current squad.
Juventus are a FAR better side than Monaco and Barcelona; Juventus are a FAR better side than us. What about Athletico Madrid who park the bus against mid table teams in la liga?
The major difference is the quality of players.
Juventus utilize Madnzukic and Cudrado as pseudo-wingbacks; Dybala has to track back constantly; Dani Alves is at times their only attacking outlet. Even Higuan can be seen camped in the Juventus half defending. They are a park the bus team, that have players that are incredible in the transitional phase of play. We are doing it against Rostov and Celta because that is our level (bear in mind that we did not park the bus against both these teams away from home).
I don't get it, why does he keep doing the same thing? It shit to watch, puts the players on the edge and it's so risky. That chance Celta had the end could have ended our whole season because we let them back in. I wouldn't moan if we did this against Barca, but to do it against Celta, in OT when were in control of the game is just wrong on so many levels. It's not like it works either. But old habits die hard and this is way Jose has that reputation he seems to hate to much.
But, we made to the final and Jose gets a pass from me for the football we play this season. But really, I expect a lot more next season, the type of football we played this week isn't good enough. I can't even imagine what Jose would do if we play a team like Barca, Madrid or Bayern
But, we made to the final and Jose gets a pass from me for the football we play this season. But really, I expect a lot more next season, the type of football we played this week isn't good enough. I can't even imagine what Jose would do if we play a team like Barca, Madrid or Bayern
Absolutely agree. In their low block with their back 5 becoming more of a 6 it is just so hard to get a clear angle or opening to get anything on target. Once they win the ball, their ability to by pass the opponent midfield screen is also extremely efficient with dybala and pjanic being able to find the open man and most importantly being able to get the runners and the combination passes together to bypass the press.
That would arguably be an improvement.
Firstly, Arsenal are above us in the league (and likely to finish there based on remaining fixtures) and they have been playing a more attacking version of football with more goals scored. On top of that they are also in a cup final and depending on how our respective finals go they might still end up having a much better season than us. So pointing them out as an example of attacking football not working out is not very clever when our defensive, "pragmatic" approach could actually yield worse results come season's end. Secondly, we have outspent Arsenal every season in memory and I would argue we have a better team as a result of it.
So the potential of a worse team finishing the season better than us while also playing more attacking football and (the cherry on the cake) while our fans defend the tumescent football we play... well it does bring my piss to boil. We are in no position to point at Arsenal and laugh.
Arsenal lost 10-2 to Bayern which Even David Fecking Moyes showed some guts against a better Bayern in 2014 and hardly lost. They're a team who has no dignity nor identity. In our worst days we never lose in such an embarrassing way.
Not sure if the TV showed it, but at the game, you could see Jose at times trying to push the team forward but for some reason they kept dropping it back and giving the ball away. Because of that he brought on Carrick to give us more control. I think he should have taken off Lingard earlier (before the equaliser anyway) for Martial or Mata.
I dont think it was Jose today telling them to just sit back and get deeper and deeper. That was kinda the players doing it based on Joses reaction on the sidelines.
Whilst Ive been annoyed by his subs in some games (basically inviting opposition to take initiative with negative subs), today was more of a reaction due to the players doing it themselves.
I dont think it was Jose today telling them to just sit back and get deeper and deeper. That was kinda the players doing it based on Joses reaction on the sidelines.
Whilst Ive been annoyed by his subs in some games (basically inviting opposition to take initiative with negative subs), today was more of a reaction due to the players doing it themselves.
A man who has always relied on defensive/organised system for system for building successful teams, isn't going to deviate from that just because his new club was famous for playing the opposite way 4-5 years ago. Especially when he himself is on the back of a setback in his career, just a season before. The board knew all this when they appointed him, so direct your anger and frustration at them rather than Mourinho. Or try and calm down a bit for your own sake if you can do that.
Not really, why do things have to be taken into extremes. Attacking a little more could actually protect us more because it would simply deprive Celta of the ball, without even imagining the miracle of scoring goals.
The bottom line for me is that if we are still playing this type of football next season, after 3 transfer windows and time enough for Jose to mould the squad, then that's when I'll lose trust in the manager. Last night was diabolical. Relatively good first half performance, followed by a half in which we were hanging on by a thread. It is a job done though and we're through to the final.
We performed well in certain stretches against Celta Vigo. Particularly in the second half, the above mentioned problem occurred and we invited pressure on us. This is where we have to change.
Not that i want us to play this way going into next season, but this is basically how i see it. Juventus have that quality that allows them to get out of these situations and put counters together. They're so much better in their one touch play and movement. If we can get in some players on their level then this would be less of a problem and we'd find those openings on the break, which were there against City, Arsenal and Celta last night. Instead we fall at the first hurdle when the likes of Mkhitaryan just run straight into the players pressing them.
this squad? Boy, we really over rate these boys.
Most of them have been very, very average. Remove the United shirt and put the jerseys of any of the bottom six teams and some of our boys would fit in perfectly.
We need to wake up. This team needs a serious overhauling.
Let me ask you: do you honestly believe that Jose asked Blind to play the way he did yesterday? As in sat him down and said, "Hey, Daley, today I want you to play like a school boy just picking interest in football. Lose the ball, blast it out, cause panick in our penalty area and even try everything possible to get carded."
Do you think he asked Mikhi to play good football for one half and get lost after then? Did he ask Bailly to punch an opponent and get sent off?
Did he ask his boys to give the ball away every single time so that they can sit back and defend?
I would be shocked if he did.
Maybe we only think they are.
Thank you for this.
Exactly what I have been saying.
Many people don't want to accept the reality that for the level of quality we are demanding, we simply don't have the personnel capable of delivering. We have too many average players all over the pitch!
Very good point.
Let us get this straight, today's performance was shambolic. We could not beat Celta at home. This is one of the easiest teams one can expect to come up against. A performance like this is not a one off and we have being doing rubbish like this against teams like Rostov, Anderlecht, Middlesbrough, Swansea.
Mourinho's defensive methods can actually be very effective, but what we are seeing can not even be categorized as defending. Yesterday looked something like run around a lot, make a human wall in front of the goal and hoof it the moment you have got it.
I understand that the right players are not available for his system, but then can he not just tweak his system a bit so that we can atleast look efficient. A little attacking intent would have worked wonders. It was only Celta, not Madrid.
He could have done it with the same players that were there on the pitch. He is getting good players to play like inferior ones. Pogba and Herrera were made to play like Cattermole and Noble. Rashford was made to look like Niasse. Come on Mourinho, these are good players, just be a little more positive and we will comfortably beat teams. We don't even have to change our defensive mindset. Just need to be a bit more positive on the ball.
Mourinho's tactics and set up have been disappointing for quite a few matches now. It not like he is being asked attack or set the team in a way he is not comfortable in. It is looking like he is failing to implement his own methods.
Mourinho's defensive methods can actually be very effective, but what we are seeing can not even be categorized as defending. Yesterday looked something like run around a lot, make a human wall in front of the goal and hoof it the moment you have got it.
I understand that the right players are not available for his system, but then can he not just tweak his system a bit so that we can atleast look efficient. A little attacking intent would have worked wonders. It was only Celta, not Madrid.
He could have done it with the same players that were there on the pitch. He is getting good players to play like inferior ones. Pogba and Herrera were made to play like Cattermole and Noble. Rashford was made to look like Niasse. Come on Mourinho, these are good players, just be a little more positive and we will comfortably beat teams. We don't even have to change our defensive mindset. Just need to be a bit more positive on the ball.
Mourinho's tactics and set up have been disappointing for quite a few matches now. It not like he is being asked attack or set the team in a way he is not comfortable in. It is looking like he is failing to implement his own methods.
What a load of nonsense.
Boy, we really over rate these boys.
Most of them have been very, very average. Remove the United shirt and put the jerseys of any of the bottom six teams and some of our boys would fit in perfectly.
We need to wake up. This team needs a serious overhauling.
Let me ask you: do you honestly believe that Jose asked Blind to play the way he did yesterday? As in sat him down and said, "Hey, Daley, today I want you to play like a school boy just picking interest in football. Lose the ball, blast it out, cause panick in our penalty area and even try everything possible to get carded."
Do you think he asked Mikhi to play good football for one half and get lost after then? Did he ask Bailly to punch an opponent and get sent off?
Did he ask his boys to give the ball away every single time so that they can sit back and defend?
I would be shocked if he did.
Our squad is more than good enough to be able to play good football and beat fecking Celta Vigo at home. Anyone denying that is either massively underrating the squad or needs an urgent visit to the optician.
Sitting back against an average team we dominated less than a week ago at home is appalling. If we had lost that game it would have entirely been on Jose. And I say that as someone whos by and large been very satisfied with the football we've played this season.
Jesus, a lot of historical revisionism in this thread. Under Fergie we had Ronaldo who basically scared opponents back into their own half on his own. We also had a top form Rooney, Scholes, Evra, Vidic etc. The gulf in class between the current team and Fergies last team is really, really big. Especially considering the injuries and fatigue right now
In Europe Fergie did play very defensively, especially away where we often aimed for a draw by "parking the buss". Moyes was an unmitigated disaster and Van Gaal tried to bore us to death with his bastardized tiki-taka. The chopping and changing in management has also lead to a shambolic transfer policy with no consistency.
Right now we are far from our potential, and yes we have been struggling to score, but it there are a multitude of other factors in play here, and not just our "negative tactics". A win in Stockholm we are in the CL next year (which was our goal) and i am sure Mou will sort out our biggest problems in the squad this summer
In Europe Fergie did play very defensively, especially away where we often aimed for a draw by "parking the buss". Moyes was an unmitigated disaster and Van Gaal tried to bore us to death with his bastardized tiki-taka. The chopping and changing in management has also lead to a shambolic transfer policy with no consistency.
Right now we are far from our potential, and yes we have been struggling to score, but it there are a multitude of other factors in play here, and not just our "negative tactics". A win in Stockholm we are in the CL next year (which was our goal) and i am sure Mou will sort out our biggest problems in the squad this summer
He's been training them for a season, that's what makes the difference, touchline antics in may are way too little way too late.
It seems we lack in our tactics/coaching of what to do with the ball or a system of attacking tactics.
For example, last match Celta Vigo had players in position to receive the ball when they attacked. We could see it in well drilled attacking teams like Klopp, Pep or swansea etc when they move forward. Where as we often look for options only after getting the ball. For us it needs individual brilliance to get the team attacking or counter attacking rather than players drilled to do it. May be this is the reason why some players who look world beaters in other teams looks like average players in our team.
We are the worst team in terms of distance covered in matches. We end up defending with 10 players and 6 at the back like a league one side to finish our matches when opposition attacks and we don't know what to do with the ball when we have it. We interpret this as our players lacking attacking movement.
One Dutch poster in another thread said that they are very good at it and United lack it. (He ended up calling Pogba wont get into Ajax team and the discussion took another direction though). LVG failed miserably and ended up making our players clueless though. Some Redcafe posters weeks back suggested that we need new attacking coach.
It seems to me that the problem is in between those lines. We lack the system to play in cohesive attacking movements. This has to be improved or else the goalscoring will not improve much, even with better class players.
For example, last match Celta Vigo had players in position to receive the ball when they attacked. We could see it in well drilled attacking teams like Klopp, Pep or swansea etc when they move forward. Where as we often look for options only after getting the ball. For us it needs individual brilliance to get the team attacking or counter attacking rather than players drilled to do it. May be this is the reason why some players who look world beaters in other teams looks like average players in our team.
We are the worst team in terms of distance covered in matches. We end up defending with 10 players and 6 at the back like a league one side to finish our matches when opposition attacks and we don't know what to do with the ball when we have it. We interpret this as our players lacking attacking movement.
One Dutch poster in another thread said that they are very good at it and United lack it. (He ended up calling Pogba wont get into Ajax team and the discussion took another direction though). LVG failed miserably and ended up making our players clueless though. Some Redcafe posters weeks back suggested that we need new attacking coach.
It seems to me that the problem is in between those lines. We lack the system to play in cohesive attacking movements. This has to be improved or else the goalscoring will not improve much, even with better class players.
This.
I honestly can't understand how people are complaining about our squad in match against Celta Vigo. I understand if we do it after playing against Madrid or even Atletico, but we should not be pointing to our squad when we have failed to dispatch Celta Vigo convincingly.
The way we are playing, it looks like we are just interested in CL qualification. That is it. It is important for us because we want to attract the right players. We used to laugh at Liverpool for such things. We are not interested in actually winning it or even having a good run. For winning the CL, you need to at least show signs of being able to dominate minnows from other leagues. We are defending for our lives against Celta Vigo.
Mourinho has nothing to build upon this season. There is no pattern and playing 10 men behind the ball is not how you lay the foundations for a cohesive future strategy. We can't come up and say, so and so is the formation he used most of the season, this player has been trained to work in such a way.
For him, the result is more important and if has to do this by playing Pogba as a DM and Rashford or Martial as a LB then he will do it. It might get the result but you have wasted the chance to build a proper team for the future.
Maybe Mourinho did not want the players to defend so deep, maybe he wanted them to move the ball ahead, but this is exactly what happens when the strategy is always to not concede, be overly cautious going ahead, avoid playing payers who like to attack and a little suspect defensively and constantly set up your players to disrupt the opposition rather than playing your own game. It slowly saps all attacking and creative instincts and you suddenly see that players have turned into work horses.
The funny thing is, don't think that many of our supporters are even interested in quick glorification. They are willing to wait and let the manager try things out his own way. If they see signs of improvement and see a manager genuinely trying to do something positive then they are very much satisfied. All throughout the season, most supporters(myself included) were satisfied seeing that we were creating chances and going about things the right way. Lately, we look like we have lost all will to play proper football and just somehow want fate to gift us that CL qualification.
What? If we're using the enough time logic then Pep at City shows it takes more than 7/8 months to get the side playing like he wants. You're expecting miracles from a disjoined squad.
Our squad is damaged, from Moyes to LvG this squad is a lost cause. It's so deep rooted that it needs a clearout and a reset.
Jose didn't want us to defend so deep last night. That's all we can go by so the insults thrown at him because of it doesn't make sense.
Reaching for football philosophy nonsense as I see it to justify having a go at him is a bit petty. It muddies the waters.
We have vastly improved from the last 3 season. We are no longer a soft touch but the psychological defects are still there.
Stop overrating our squad so much and you'll sleep a lot easier.
We're a 5/6 squad with quality sprinkled in here and there.
We are performing like we have all season, like we have over the last 3 seasons.
Do we need to perform like this over 10 seasons for people to wake up? When is the last time we've beaten a mid table side convincingly? All of a sudden that's the standard was should expect?
If Liverpool fans were posting like this we would be laughing at them and rightly so.
Winning the EL is key for our rebuilding process, if we were able to dispatch EL semi finalists with ease then we wouldn't have been in the EL in the first place.
It's all about the results. You can't play expansive football with a fullback like Darmian, a CM like Fellaini and a RW like Lingard.
Mourinho knows what this team is capable of and sets us out defensively because he knows we won't be able to make an impact up the pitch, as we've shown time after time this seasons.
For now, it's fine. Next season, with reinforcements all over the pitch, this would be unacceptable unless away form home against big teams.
Mourinho knows what this team is capable of and sets us out defensively because he knows we won't be able to make an impact up the pitch, as we've shown time after time this seasons.
For now, it's fine. Next season, with reinforcements all over the pitch, this would be unacceptable unless away form home against big teams.
What on earth is the guy being paid for if he isn't even having any influence over our tactics?
The players were panicing a bit, playing too safe.
It happens all the time, teams underperform or don't carry out the managers instructions correctly.
Did Zidane send his players out last Wednesday under the instruction to lose the ball deep in their own half and play with no intensity until they were two nil down?
Did Pep tell his player v Boro to play like they've never touched a ball before?
He even said last night that that he was looking at Mata or Martial as a sub but when he couldn't get the defensive block pushed forward he had to change his mind.
Sure like Spurs battered Genk.
It's been a while since we can say any English side would batter teams in Europe for certain.
See what you're doing here is confusing one-off examples of a team playing badly with a team following its managers flawed negative defensive instructions.
We have been doing this against Rostov, Middlesbrough, Anderlecht Swansea, Arsenal, City. It can be tolerated if it was one off. When you see similar performances more than once then it becomes a strategy. A very rubbish strategy.
But it wasn't his instructions, it went against what he wanted which was the point of my post that you quoted.