e-petition to release the govt Hillsborough files

[#07]

Hillsborough: transcript of Prime Minister's statement

Encase anyone wants to read it.

 

[Badunk]

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf

A better link for the report.

 

[Chabon]

How so?

If and when they boo Evra it will make the atmosphere pretty poisenous ayway - I don't see how having previously made some kind of gesture on Hillsborough would make it worse?

Because having made the gesture our fans would, I imagine, feel like the Scousers were throwing it back in their face.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Because having made the gesture our fans would, I imagine, feel like the Scousers were throwing it back in their face.

Can't see that having a significant bearing on things. There'll be the ususla level of hatred either way once things get going, but a gesture before kick off would be a great reminder that some things are more important.

 

[Badunk]

Because having made the gesture our fans would, I imagine, feel like the Scousers were throwing it back in their face.

We both play 2 or 3 times before we meet each other, so I can't see it happening anyway. I think if we played them this weekend, we would definitely do something. If we were at home, I reckon SAF would mention it in the programme notes.

There is a good chance that Liverpool fans will do something themselves (eg: huge mosaic) and have a minute's silence or something. I think most, if not all, of our fans would respect that.

 

[Judge Red]

Though I have little respect for the paper at the best of times, I might have let the current editorial team of The Sun off the hook when it comes to being held responsible for the actions of Kelvin MacKenzie. But whoever decided to lead with an unrelated main headline on their website that includes the words 'shut up and move on' while everyone else is reporting on this knows exactly what they're doing.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Though I have little respect for the paper, I might have let the current editorial team of The Sun off the hook when it comes to being held responsible for the actions of Kelvin Mackenzie. But whoever decided to lead with an unrelated main headline on their website that includes the words 'shut up and move on' while everyone else is reporting on this knows exactly what they're doing.

The fact that Kelvin McKenzie still writes a column in The Sun says a lot about them as well. I hate people saying they should move on is ridiculous. They will never be able to move on completely because of the nature of the deaths. We cannot imagine how they are feeling.

 

[Crustanoid]

Though I have little respect for the paper at the best of times, I might have let the current editorial team of The Sun off the hook when it comes to being held responsible for the actions of Kelvin MacKenzie. But whoever decided to lead with an unrelated main headline on their website that includes the words 'shut up and move on' while everyone else is reporting on this knows exactly what they're doing.

FFS That is terrible taste if true

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Though I have little respect for the paper at the best of times, I might have let the current editorial team of The Sun off the hook when it comes to being held responsible for the actions of Kelvin MacKenzie. But whoever decided to lead with an unrelated main headline on their website that includes the words 'shut up and move on' while everyone else is reporting on this knows exactly what they're doing.

I cannot believe people still buy this disgusting paper. The best thing that could happen is that it disappears off the face of the earth.

 

[Badunk]

66. Disclosed documents provide no rationale for the Coroner’s exceptional decision to take samples for blood alcohol measurement from all of the deceased.
67. The implicit and explicit use of a blood alcohol level of 80mg/100ml as a marker was unjustified. This level has relevance to the rapid response times of individuals in charge of motor vehicles, but none to people attending a leisure event.

For shame.

 

[Sir A1ex]

Just seen this tweet:

"All government documents from Thatcher government relating to #Hillsborough should be made public - Labour's Andy Burnham."

Does this mean there is still stuff they are sitting on?

 

[Antisocial]

Just seen this tweet:

"All government documents from Thatcher government relating to #Hillsborough should be made public - Labour's Andy Burnham."

Does this mean there is still stuff they are sitting on?

David Cameron said that all the documents had been made available to the panel; only some will not be released due to Data Protection issues but the decision of what not to release on those grounds are at the discretion of the panel. He spoke about cabinet documents being released and detailing that Mrs T wanted to the police chief to resign (I think I heard this part correctly) so there's nothing that the present government has held back.

 

[Badunk]

63. There was clear evidence from the post mortem reports that 28 of those who died did not have traumatic asphyxia with obstruction of the blood circulation, and asphyxia may have taken significantly longer to be fatal. There was separate evidence that in 31 the heart and lungs had continued to function after the crush, and in 16 of these this was for a prolonged period.

64. It was asserted repeatedly, by the Coroner, by the High Court in the Judicial Review proceedings and by the Stuart-Smith Scrutiny, that the effects of asphyxia were irreversible by the time each of those who died was removed from the pens. Yet individuals in each of the groups now identified could have had potentially reversible asphyxia. Resuscitation of an unconscious person with a heartbeat is much more likely to be successful than if cardiac arrest has already occurred, as was previously assumed. While they remained unconscious, these individuals were vulnerable to a new event, particularly further airway obstruction from inappropriate positioning.

Shocking.

 

[Badunk]

114. The rationale presented by the Coroner for selecting 3.15pm as the cut-off, acknowledged as appropriate by the High Court in the Judicial Review proceedings and the Stuart-Smith Scrutiny, was that all who died had suffered fatal and irreversible injuries by that time.

115. 3.15pm was chosen because it was an undisputed and recorded time when an ambulance arrived on the pitch. This served as a ‘marker’ and the Coroner rounded the time to the nearest quarter-hour.

116. The pathologists’ medical opinion underpinned the Coroner’s final decision. It concluded that all who died suffered irretrievable, fatal injury and there could be no recovery regardless of whether the deceased lived beyond 3.15pm. This opinion neglected the significance of the particular circumstances in which each individual died, including the absence of appropriate medical or treatment intervention.

Basically saying, even if you were alive after 3.15pm, you were gonna die anyway.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Basically saying, even if you were alive after 3.15pm, you were gonna die anyway.

Basically they were left to die as you say. That is really shocking.

 

[Badunk]

129. The process of transition from self-taken recollections to formal Criminal Justice Act statements was presented as removing ‘conjecture’ and ‘opinion’ from the former, leaving only matters of ‘fact’ within the latter. Disclosed correspondence between SYP and the Force solicitors reveals that comments within officers’ statements ‘unhelpful to the Force’s case’ were altered, deleted or qualified (rewritten by the SYP team).

130. A significant number of SYP officers were uncomfortable with the methodology adopted in reviewing and altering their initial accounts and with the role of the SYP solicitors in this process. Senior SYP officers, including the Chief Constable, were aware of these concerns and the disclosed ‘Hillsborough updates’ demonstrate their attempts to assuage these concerns. An SYP inquiry liaison team was available to provide junior officers with ‘necessary information and assistance’ prior to giving evidence to the Taylor Inquiry.

131. Examination of officers’ statements shows that officers were discouraged from making criticisms of senior officers’ responses, their management and deficiencies in the SYP operational response: ‘key’ words and descriptions such as ‘chaotic’ were counselled against and, if included, were deleted.

132. Some 116 of the 164 statements identified for substantive amendment were amended to remove or alter comments unfavourable to SYP.

There's your police cover-up.

 

[vanthaman]

He's still alive, get him prosecuted. He sounds a lovely human being doesn't he.

How the hell did he get a knighthood??

 

[DomesticTadpole]

There's your police cover-up.

It appears most of the police were trying to tell it how it was, but the bosses changed it. That is scandalous. It was the police chiefs who made a complete mess of the whole affair. Trying to cover their backs and secure their fat pensions.

 

[SilentWitness]

It appears most of the police were trying to tell it how it was, but the bosses changed it. That is scandalous. It was the police chiefs who made a complete mess of the whole affair. Trying to cover their backs and secure their fat pensions.

Yep, like in the documentary how the Liverpool fans were saying how brilliant the junior officers had acted in comparison with the seniors.

 

[ICIP]

Great news for the families that they're getting closer to justice and clarity that they've fought so hard for. Disgusting getting an insight into the cover up mind.



What worries me though is the wider issue. Only now after 96 families pushed for this with the support of one of the biggest football clubs in the world have they stopped covering it up. Makes me think what else has been left unturned without that volume of pressure.

 

[Badunk]

140. As the severity of the disaster was becoming apparent, SYP Match Commander, Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield, told a falsehood to senior officials that Liverpool fans had broken into the stadium and caused an inrush into the central pens thus causing the fatal crush. While later discredited, this unfounded allegation was broadcast internationally and was the first explanation of the cause of the disaster to enter the public domain.

141. Within days, further serious allegations emerged from unnamed sources, a Police Federation spokesperson and a local Conservative MP, Irvine Patnick. These were that Liverpool fans had conspired to arrive late, many were without tickets, were exceptionally drunk and aggressive and determined to force entry into the stadium.

142. On 19 April, four days after the disaster, The Sun newspaper published a front-page story under the banner headline, ‘THE TRUTH’, alleging that Liverpool fans had assaulted and urinated on police officers resuscitating the dying, stolen from the dead and verbally sexually abused an unconscious young woman.

cnuts.

 

[SteveJ]

In olden days, disgraceful events like this would have led to a public uprising; the authorities should be thankful that we're more civilised, decent and reasonable than they have proven to be, time and again.

 

[Aporkalypse]

So many that should still be alive and so many that need to pay some sort of price for allowing it to happen.

fecking disgusting.

 

[Badunk]

1.99 When a face was recognised the number was called and the corresponding body was wheeled on a trolley to the gymnasium door. There was little time allowed for contemplation, touch was restricted and privacy denied. Relatives and friends of the deceased were then escorted to police officers sitting at tables, who took statements.

1.100 The identification process caused distress for families: the use of poor-quality Polaroid photographs, uncategorised by gender or age; the presentation of the dead in body bags, often in a dishevelled state; time and privacy, crucial for grieving, were denied as the police, pressured by the need to process waiting relatives, were keen to complete the identification quickly.

1.101 Following identification, relatives or friends were interviewed by CID officers. Questioning included details of their journeys to Sheffield, whether they had attended the match and whether they had consumed alcohol. Personal questioning extended to the reputations of their loved ones whom they had just identified. The primary objective appeared to be investigation rather than identification, a view corroborated by other workers involved.

Heart-breaking.

 

[Guy Incognito]

Sky news reporting MacKenzie will make a statement later this afternoon.

 

[Aporkalypse]

Sky news reporting MacKenzie will make a statement later this afternoon.

Fingers crossed for a "Budd Dwyer" statement. Don't search it if it you haven't seen it.

 

[Liam147]

There's your police cover-up.

But why? What was their agenda? Did they hate Liverpool football club? Were they jealous of their success? Was this a punishment for Heysel? Were they just evil people getting their kicks off of people dying?

I just cannot see why they would purposely let this happen. It's like one giant conspiracy.

 

[Badunk]

Oliver Kay ‏@OliverKayTimes

Those who've campaigned for the truth on Hillsborough were once a suppressed minority. Now the minority are those left clinging to the lies.

 

[SilentWitness]

In olden days, disgraceful events like this would have led to a public uprising; the authorities should be thankful that we're more civilised, decent and reasonable than they have proven to be, time and again.

I think that's another thing that has made me so pissed too. Being 19 still and getting the brunt of "youth being at fault" for a lot of the bad that happens in the UK and other parts of the world makes me sympathise more with the fans who have taken it over the years from the government. Time and time again the Seniors and Government officials in the country cover up and do wrong and somehow get away with it. I'm glad that justice for once has pervailed and like ICIP says, that more things which seem to be covered up are uncovered. But hey, that's for another debate.

 

[Badunk]

But why? What was their agenda? Did they hate Liverpool football club? Were they jealous of their success? Was this a punishment for Heysel? Were they just evil people getting their kicks off of people dying?

I just cannot see why they would purposely let this happen. It's like one giant conspiracy.

The police caused it to happen. That's why they covered it up.

 

[kps88]

But why? What was their agenda? Did they hate Liverpool football club? Were they jealous of their success? Was this a punishment for Heysel? Were they just evil people getting their kicks off of people dying?

I just cannot see why they would purposely let this happen. It's like one giant conspiracy.

Huh? The cover up was obviously orchestrated by those at the top.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

But why? What was their agenda? Did they hate Liverpool football club? Were they jealous of their success? Was this a punishment for Heysel? Were they just evil people getting their kicks off of people dying?

I just cannot see why they would purposely let this happen. It's like one giant conspiracy.

People don't like taking the blame, especially bosses.

 

[Liam147]

The police caused it to happen. That's why they covered it up.

Thing is, would it really have been so bad to say "we made a mistake by opening a gate" or whatever, "but once we realised the mistake had been made, we did our best to rectify it." Cutting their losses in a way, but it was like they thought that after the one original mistake, they had no choice but to let people die, and blame them for it. Mental.

 

[SteveJ]

For those few who might think this is a matter for Liverpool fans only: when The Sun finally published an apology in 2004, they exploited the fact that they'd recently contracted Wayne Rooney to write a series of columns; in The Sun's apology, it stated that 'The Sun of 2004 no more deserves to be hated in Merseyside than Wayne Rooney does'...which is a charming way of deflecting blame. I bet Wayne was thrilled.

More:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=34790.msg523031#msg523031

 

[Badunk]

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/NGN000000010001.pdf

The White Press release (the original source for the Sun's lies).

 

[Badunk]

Kelvin MacKenzie has offered his "profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool for that headline"

 

[DomesticTadpole]

What's the betting if one of the junior officers had opened the barrier gates, he would have been sacked. Their bosses were complete morons. They kept telling their bobbies that it was hooliganism not a tragedy. That was one of the reasons, the ambulances weren't allowed in.

I just wish all these awful songs would end, it isn't banter. The Evra business seems trivial name calling compared to loss of human life.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Kelvin MacKenzie has offered his "profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool for that headline"

Utter bollocks.

 

[Badunk]

"Too little, too late .. lowlife, clever lowlife but lowlife" say families spokesman at press conference of the Kelvin Mackenzie apology

 

[SteveJ]

Thing is, would it really have been so bad to say "we made a mistake by opening a gate" or whatever, "but once we realised the mistake had been made, we did our best to rectify it." Cutting their losses in a way, but it was like they thought that after the one original mistake, they had no choice but to let people die, and blame them for it. Mental.

They knew they would get away with it, Liam. At a time when the Prime Minister and this particular police force were hand-in-glove; when Mrs Thatcher routinely made use of police forces in an illegal fashion (during the miners' strike), they knew that their version of events would be accepted as the only one that counted. Although this review is to be welcomed, it still effectively absolves Mrs Thatcher's government of blame.