Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[VP89]

You quoted me

And I asked you to stay on track because you quote people and don't reply to what they said - you reply to stuff you've made up in your head. Example:

What I said - "we have seen managers perform better under this same structure"
What you replied to - "all managers have done better than ETH at the same point as where he is now"

Which managers performed better under this same structure?

1) no manager was employed in this structure pre ten hag
2) even if you assume they did, they didn't perform better. They all had a lot more time to right their wrongs and more windows to make their squad, bar Moyes and Rangnick. And none of them achieved what ten hag did in year 1. So even if he underpeforms them in year 2, that doesn't mean they are suddenly better. Progression isn't always linear, do you understand this concept?

 

[Lay]

Did Mourinho win two cups his first year? That’s better than ETH’s first season for me.

 

[Smithy89]

Badly coached side, we can't defend or attack. Players aren't innocent in this, but the things we are bad at are down to coaching and in game management.

 

[Leftback99]

Jesus christ, did you just try to bitch talk me?
I genuinely didn't read your drivel after that because your standard of posting and logic is so far gone that you might as well go back to the newbies.

If you think managers performed better than ten hag after 18 months, name them.

Mourinho had won us 2 cups, top of CL group and second in the league after 18 months.

 

[VP89]

Did Mourinho win two cups his first year? That’s better than ETH’s first season for me.

Don't think a charity shield is counted as a major trophy, and he finished outside of top 4 with 8pts less

 

[AndyMUFC]

We all know the players aren't going to win us a league but they're still better than this rubbish. We've lost 13 of 26 games this season, and the only reason we've not been worse is because we've been able to eek out a few unconvincing wins against sides lower in the table.

Not good enough, and in this case I firmly believe we've been this bad due to the way the manager is setting up the team. He's being doing it since August and is clearly unwilling to change so he's going to give us no option but to sack him.

 

[VP89]

Mourinho had won us 2 cups, top of CL group and second in the league after 18 months.

Charity shield is not really counted as a major trophy, and I agree with the point about the second season. Jose is the best manager we had after 2 years of reign.

 

[Leftback99]

Charity shield is not really counted as a major trophy, and I agree with the point about the second season. Jose is the best manager we had after 2 years of reign.

Who mentioned Charity shield?

 

[Rista]

So you are still caught in the trap of short term top 4 chase. Some fans will never learn

It's not a trap. It's what every big club would do. There's no reason we can't hire an interim manager, or even someone for just a short while to stop us from sinking further down. Our next manager does not need to be a 10 year project for the future, it's absolutely fine to replace him when necessary even if it's after just a year. In fact, that's exactly what that proposed new structure would enable us to do.

 

[VP89]

Who mentioned Charity shield?

My memory fails me, which cups was it he won?

Also I'm in agreement by the way. Jose is the only manager I wanted that poster to say to have done better than ten hag in two years.

 

[Redstain]

You basically just named 3 very good players Liverpool signed to make your point? 2 of whom United didnt sign even though the managers at the time wanted the club to sign them?

The point as initially stated is that none of them were perceived to be world class players at the point of them being acquired (including Robertson), they joined a manager who has a system, philosophy and function and they became successful. Good managers extract more from the average player.

United have signed players who have had successful seasons at their former clubs (as identifiable with Liverpool) but the managers that have integrated them have failed to do so at an acceptable standard so now the perception around the quality of the player diminishes.

 

[TsuWave]

Which managers performed better under this same structure?

1) no manager was employed in this structure pre ten hag
2) even if you assume they did, they didn't perform better. They all had a lot more time to right their wrongs and more windows to make their squad, bar Moyes and Rangnick. And none of them achieved what ten hag did in year 1. So even if he underpeforms them in year 2, that doesn't mean they are suddenly better. Progression isn't always linear, do you understand this concept?

You do understand you're the one making a linear comparison of progression, right?

I made a simple, and open assertion - we've seen managers perform better under the same structure. And somehow, to you, that translated into timelines/time spans/tenure length all needing to align.

Mourinho did better
Van Gaal is also tracking to be better
Ole is arguable too

Now, you said "objectively it can be argued that any manager would fail in the current structure" - and expounded with - "under the current DoF anyway. I don't think any manager gets a fair shake"

and when I said that's verifiably false as we have had managers that performed better under the same structure - you turned around and are now you're saying - "it's not the same structure though is it?"

so, what did you use as the basis of/for your initial assertion(s) then - ???

 

[Lay]

Don't think a charity shield is counted as a major trophy, and he finished outside of top 4 with 8pts less

Carabao and Europa

 

[VP89]

You do understand you're the one making a linear comparison of progression, right?

I made a simple, and open assertion - we've seen managers perform better under the same structure. And somehow, to you, that translated into timelines/time spans/tenure length all needing to align.

Mourinho did better
Van Gaal is also tracking to be better

Now, you said "objectively it can be argued that any manager would fail in the current structure" - and expounded with - "under the current DoF anyway. I don't think any manager gets a fair shake"

and when I said that's verifiably false as we have had managers that performed better under the same structure - you turned around and are now you're saying - "it's not the same structure though is it?"

so, what did you use as the basis of/for your initial assertion(s) then - ???

To paraphrase your condescending tone, son't sidestep and answer what is asked.

Progression is not linear, do you understand this? And the structure ten hag is under is not the same as the others, do you understand this?

 

[TsuWave]

To paraphrase your condescending tone, son't sidestep and answer what is asked.

Progression is not linear, do you understand this? And the structure ten hag is under is not the same as the others, do you understand this?

I wasn’t being condescending, by the way, simply asking you to stay on track.

I answered your question - while you have repeatedly sidestepped what I’ve asked you. In fact, one of the questions I’ve asked is regarding your assertions about structure.

If Ten Hag is not under the same structure as the others, which I’d be happy to concede, what was the basis of your initial assertions?

 

[VP89]

I wasn’t being condescending, by the way, simply asking you to stay on track.

I answered your question - while you have repeatedly sidestepped what I’ve asked you. In fact, one of the questions I’ve asked is regarding your assertions about structure.

If Ten Hag is not under the same structure as the others, which I’d be happy to concede, what was the basis of your initial assertions?

The assertions that no manager gets a fair shake in his circumstance?

 

[devilish]

That could take months and months though. We’d likely be in the relegation zone by then.

Right now a top 4 finish is still achievable. He needs to be sacked and an interim manager appointed until the boardroom situation is sorted out.

13 bloody defeats before Xmas
He has to go.

So would you let Murtough and Joel choose our next manager?

 

[devilish]

There are two ways, in my opinion, to move forward. Either accept that, for the foreseeable, we are a 3-7 team in the league and work with that. Get a manager like Solskjaer in to keep Rashford, Bruno and the rest of the gang happy by keeping the tactics simple, playing on the counter and turning a blind eye to all sorts of disciplinary misdemeanour. Then, gradually as the contracts run down, try to make the wage bill more manageable. It should also keep the sponsors happy and the current commercial deals intact. Or, as RR suggested, you aim for the jugular because United can't afford the risk of being left in the wilderness. If that's the route you want to follow, you need to understand that your two marquee players need a world of sacrifices and accommodations to perform in a way that makes them happy and most productive. So, if you bring a manager or DoF (or both) in whom you believe in, listen to him/them even if he/they suggest(s) radical changes. The ones they don't like to hear, so they keep reshuffling the deck by giving top-level jobs to the best arse-lickers in their offices.

Quite frankly I have zero clue of how to sort that mess. Which is why I hope that we hire the best in class (CEO, Sporting director, head of recruitment, fitness people etc). Only then we can decide the next course of action and who should stay and leave. That include the manager of course.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Let's be completely honest; our standards for managers have been on the floor since Moyes came in and lowered them by every metric possible.

You still have crazy fecks on here pining for Ole and claiming he done a 'good job'. Just because this manager is falling, it doesn't excuse the utter shite from his predecessors. I'm not sure how anyone is still defending ETH. We were sold a completely different project to the one he's produced.

I wanted him here and thought he had a decent first season. But feck me, there's absolutely no defending the tripe he's served up this season. The excuses are wearing paper thin, too. We are just a complete mess on the pitch and can barely muster up shots on target during full 90 minutes. It's clearly not good enough and blaming everyone bar the manager is nuts. We have a plethora of problems, but this season, he's one of them. Thinking this will ever click is just blind hope, unfortunately.

 

[Cassidy]

It's not a trap. It's what every big club would do. There's no reason we can't hire an interim manager, or even someone for just a short while to stop us from sinking further down. Our next manager does not need to be a 10 year project for the future, it's absolutely fine to replace him when necessary even if it's after just a year. In fact, that's exactly what that proposed new structure would enable us to do.

Not what Arsenal did. Is what we have been doing for a decade

 

[TsuWave]

The assertions that no manager gets a fair shake in his circumstance?

You said the following:

Objectively it can be argued that any manager would fail in the current structure under the current DoF anyway. I don't think any manager gets a fair shake.

If no other manager has been under this structure what’s the basis for it to be “objectively argued that any manager would fail under this structure?

keep in mind that this was your follow-up:

Weve also seen those managers capitulate. So that kills that.

 

[Rista]

Not what Arsenal did. Is what we have been doing for a decade

Literally the only example in top football and they haven't even won anything. Let's ignore the 99.9% of the other times it doesn't work and makes the situation worse.

 

[Jezpeza]

We all know the players aren't going to win us a league but they're still better than this rubbish. We've lost 13 of 26 games this season, and the only reason we've not been worse is because we've been able to eek out a few unconvincing wins against sides lower in the table.

Not good enough, and in this case I firmly believe we've been this bad due to the way the manager is setting up the team. He's being doing it since August and is clearly unwilling to change so he's going to give us no option but to sack him.

When you look at the results this season - who we’ve beaten, in what manner, who we’ve lost to - we are 100% a mid table side. We’ve narrowly won our relegation six pointers and been turned over by every half decent side we have faced. Surprised if we get top 10. Some fans still seem to thing a couple of injured players are going to return and propel us to the top 4 I dont know if its sad or funny.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Make him an offer he can't refuse.

Real Madrid will make him a better one.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Of course:
This game today was different to the Liverpool match as we didn't need to defend - we didn't play for a 0-0 today.
His point was why did EtH need to change the team from Liverpool's.
But he doesn't seem to understand that the two games are different.
Hope you understand this simple explanation

Just because you don't change a team, doesn't mean you don't change the tactics. He could easily have kept the same team, barring Dalot of course.

 

[RedinIndia]

But the same pattern is there, from Moyes, LVG, José, Ole, Rangnick and now Ten Hag.

I doubt you can include Rangnick there. He was someone who was meant to be a director of football. His club coaching days were far gone by then despite him taking the Austria job later

Anyway , we got in Rangnick without allowing him to get his team. There's no way any manager would get good results there.

But the rest all the pattern seems to be that we hire good rated coaches (except from Ole) and Manchester United drag them down rather than them boosting United up.

 

[r0663664]

I think United can hire Alonso or the Girona's coach. These 2 must be doing something right going toe to toe with the big boys especially Girona where he needs to compete with Real, Barcelona and At.Madrid.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

Just because you don't change a team, doesn't mean you don't change the tactics. He could easily have kept the same team, barring Dalot of course.

Especially when you have lost all 10 tough away games in last 2 years but nah let's just not build upon something that worked just a week ago.

 

[lsd]

Which managers performed better under this same structure?

1) no manager was employed in this structure pre ten hag
2) even if you assume they did, they didn't perform better. They all had a lot more time to right their wrongs and more windows to make their squad, bar Moyes and Rangnick. And none of them achieved what ten hag did in year 1. So even if he underpeforms them in year 2, that doesn't mean they are suddenly better. Progression isn't always linear, do you understand this concept?

He did not achieve anything great on his first year. Can people stop with this absolute nonsense?

We fluked a league cup on the back of Rashford going through an incredible burst of form ,an insanely easy run then Newcastle not having a goalkeeper in the final.

Once that was over we fell to pieces when Rashford stopped scoring and he lost 7 fecking nil to Liverpool in itself a sackable offence.

 

[VP89]

You said the following:



If no other manager has been under this structure what’s the basis for it to be “objectively argued that any manager would fail under this structure?

keep in mind that this was your follow-up:

Two different points. Both structures were bad, but the one ten Hag has been given is worse. Head scouts were sacked and the DoF and CEO faced job uncertainty from the getgo as the club was put on for sale.

It can be argued that any manager would fail because everything has literally fallen apart above him. It doesn't become a ten hag conversation at that point, we could sign Emery a year ago and still be in the same or worse position.

 

[bond19821982]

My stance is clear and simple. Let's get the football structure in place first (Ceo, Sporting Director, head of recruitment etc) and then they decide on ETH's fate. We can't have joel and murtough choosing yet another manager

Last line is the key. I am terrified of Murtough leading another manager chase and targets after that leaks.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I like ten Hag and wouldn't want him to get sacked, but for the life of me, please try someone different.

He's brought different players in but it's more or less the same story, in that we keep the ball relatively well, but it's slow, predictable and we struggling to score goals.

Why not get someone up top with Hojlund to support him? If that means sacrificing our wingers then so be it. It's not as if they're pulling up any trees anyway.

Rashford Hojlund
Mount
Reguilon Amrabat Bruno Wan-Bissaka
Shaw Casemiro Varane
Onana

I don't know if it'll work but at least it's something different instead of trying the same thing over and over again and getting very little from it.

 

[Garethw]

So would you let Murtough and Joel choose our next manager?

Interim yes.

 

[Garethw]

So you are still caught in the trap of short term top 4 chase. Some fans will never learn

So your logic is to keep a completely useless manager until the ownership situation is sorted out?

We are in absolute free fall. Literally relegation form. He has to go.

 

[Cassidy]

Literally the only example in top football and they haven't even won anything. Let's ignore the 99.9% of the other times it doesn't work and makes the situation worse.

Which 99.9%? You mean the 99.9% of other clubs who already made significant changes to their structure. Right ok.

Arsenal were one of few clubs 3/4 years ago which still had an old structure and they revamped it.

We are the only top club left in football with a broken structure. But sure let Murtough and Joel Glazer pick another manager, not listen to them, sign players without a long term squad building vision and have the same conversation in 3 years.

 

[TsuWave]

Two different points. Both structures were bad, but the one ten Hag has been given is worse. Head scouts were sacked and the DoF and CEO faced job uncertainty from the getgo as the club was put on for sale.

Your understanding of structure differs to mine. A DoF and CEO facing uncertainty regarding their long-term employment prospects doesn’t necessarily nor inherently translate into a change of structure.

Also, there are bullish quotes from Ten Hag regarding working under said circumstances/change of ownership.

It can be argued that any manager would fail because everything has literally fallen apart above him. It doesn't become a ten hag conversation at that point, we could sign Emery a year ago and still be in the same or worse position.

So you asserted that it could be argued objectively that any manager would fail under this structure without foundation and/or reference points for said assertion? If you observe the surface of Venus you can see clouds, therefore it could be argued that there are dinosaurs there. It doesn’t mean it’s a salient/valid or even sensible argument.

Ten Hag took over during/his tenure counted with a transitional period of ownership and supposed organisational restructuring - that doesn’t absolve him of responsibility regarding on-pitch performances and results, thus my position that he should go is easily explainable and justifiable.

 

[The Hilton]

I can only speak for myself, not the thread which I admittedly haven't followed today (I am sure, it was very festive in here). I certainly acknowledged that we are looking more structured in the last 2-3 days. The thing I am harping about is the 90minute-insistence on McTominay. And don't tell me the system stands and falls with this guy. He could be subbed ONCE. At least try something different in his place.

That's fair, and I agree with you in that playing McTominay is holding us back in terms of control and ability on the ball. The reason he's in the team is that none of our forwards are doing their job.

 

[NLunited]

West Ham was the worst game so far for me. We actually looked more organized than in other games, but the way we gave up after going behind was embarrassing.

 

[pocco]

I have some sympathy for ETH and believe that if the following can start regularly and find some form we will see progress

Onana, AWB, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Casemiro, Mainoo & Mount

this is at least a decent 8.

where I lose sympathy is him starting McT and persisting with Bruno & Rashford (the later not so much recently but it feels like he’s desperate to get him back in) and insisting that Antony is a good RF.

And we’re still waiting for regular patterns of play.

I still believe that the 8 listed above (jury out on Mount but he deserves a chance and at least retains possession) in form and playing regularly will ensure at least some decent football and positive results

Of course better players would play better. But that doesn't justify keeping Ten Hag. He's not kept up his end of the bargain whatsoever. Even last season we looked toothless apart from a purple patch from Rashford to gloss over it all. Get the better players back, identify a better manager and let's make genuine improvement.

 

[VP89]

Your understanding of structure differs to mine. A DoF and CEO facing uncertainty regarding their long-term employment prospects doesn’t necessarily nor inherently translate into a change of structure.

Also, there are bullish quotes from Ten Hag regarding working under said circumstances/change of ownership.



So you asserted that it could be argued objectively that any manager would fail under this structure without foundation and/or reference points for said assertion? If you observe the surface of Venus you can see clouds, therefore it could be argued that there are dinosaurs there. It doesn’t mean it’s a salient/valid or even sensible argument.

Ten Hag took over during a transitional period of ownership and supposed organisational restructuring - that doesn’t absolve him of responsibility regarding on-pitch performances and results, thus my position that he should go is easily explainable and justifiable.

Are you high? Murtough and Arnold weren't even properly in place with the other managers. They worked for Woodward and he was around indefinitely along with the Glazers as far as they were concerned (at least until the bitter end of Ole).

And you're asking for actual references as proof as to why a structure like this where the head scouts are sacked and where the DoF has literally no clue, all whilst not knowing who will own the club in a few months is worse for a manager? I can use your same daft logic against you and say there's no proof alternative managers can do much better.

Mate you are struggling, it's not worth my time.