This is one of the lamest arguments I see everytime. If not for Arsenal and Newcastle we would be 2nd, if not for sheiks we would be first, if not for Woodward we would have won more PL. What kind of stupid logic is that. We are 4th because we deserve to be in 4th. We are on course to finish 70 plus points and in last 6 seasons that would get you 4th spot.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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One of the reasons why we are so reliant on our starters is the way we play.
We don't really have a way of playing, rather we're reliant on our star performers to do something spectacular. Arsenal and City miss the decisive passing from KDB and Ødegaard when they're out but they have a structure to build attacks, patterns of play that allow them to still dominate and create chances, with the replacements being pretty plug-in-play. We've been playing very individualistically for years.
One of the big challenges for ETH is to build those structures and patterns. Personally I'd have hoped to see more of it by now.
No we would still have won those games most likely, but this is a manager that's inherited a squad and signed half a new team in his first summer, and wants to implement his style of play in a season where we've had the lowest imaginable amount of training pitch time available to us.
I get that this is a forum where people share their opinions, but sometimes you just have to trust the decisions of the experts who have all of the experience and data available that we don't.
This season has been a massive exercise in risk management. How to start building a team and challenge for every trophy (as every United manager should always do) with the cards they've been dealt. It's hard to argue that the position we're in today hasn't vindicated many of those choices. When people can't or won't accept that there are going to be bumps in the road it leads to many unnecessary over reactions. There have been waaaaay more positives than negatives this season
Arsenal and City miss the decisive passes from KDB and Odegaard but their backups aren't Fred, McTominay and the guy who struggled at Bayern on a loan. Arsenal and City miss Jesus and Haaland whenever they don't play but their backups isn't Weghorst.
We all laughed at Arteta because he had a horrible start but once he had a team he can trust, they go for the league. Now don't get me wrong, all managers deserve criticism, sure, they make mistakes. But sometimes you have to be realistic as well. If Haaland got injured and Pep's only option is Weghorst I'm sure they would have lost points. Let alone losing Haaland and KDB at the same time and had to play Weghost and McTominay. Did I mention rock bottom confidence at the start of the season? how about a narcistic-used-to-be-legend who befriended Piers Morgan to talk shit about you, the manager?
That's why it feels kinda unfair to me when people start questioning him and even his future when we know we didn't have any hope before he joined but surprise, top 4 looks possible, we've won 1 trophy and have a final to win another one. Weghorst and Sabitzer were two desperate attempts to save the season, that we got for peanuts from clubs that either didn't want them or didn't deem them important enough, yet they are important to us. Should give you an idea how tough it is to be in that position.
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Sancho's not notoriously bad defensively. Actually, you could argue he's more diligent in that department than Rashford, Garnacho, Martial or even Antony. That being said, WW probably gives you something extra in that department. But he wasn't brought on for Sancho - Martial was. WW was brought on for Antony.
After 9 months of the season I'd give him a solid 6/10. I can't blame him for how our season started. The Ronaldo issues and a lack of transfers handicapped us. From then till the world cup we were largely excellent. Mainly injury free and solid at the back. Our build up play was good and didn't solely rely on counter attacks. Then after the wc till the league cup final we were again steady.
Since that final we've been very poor performance wise bar a few games. We've been embarrassed by Liverpool, Newcastle and Sevilla with abject performances. His in game management has also been crap from how it started. I don't know if this is a blip but it's worrying. But my biggest worry about our trajectory under him is a lack of control in games. Even at 2-0 yesterday you could tell we're not comfortable.
Another worry is his signings have been largely average. Martinez has been excellent. Eriksen has been steady but not a long term solution. You can tell he's a ex-spurs player. Generally plays poorly when it matters. Malacia has been very poor recently although he's young. Anthony has been average. Casamiero has been overrated but say he's been ok and nothing exceptional.And weghorst has been diabolical. We needed these players to show consistency and an upward level consistently.
The past 10 years at united has seen a similar pattern in that we've had a very poor season, the manager gets sacked, and the new manager comes in, wins a small cup and then gets found out the following season. Rinse and repeat. Is it the ownerships fault? Partly yes. But we've spent huge amounts of money. Is it the people underneath the ownership? Hugely! Because the recruitment has been rubbish. For that the glazers are to blame as well. They probably couldn't name you 10 players in Europe.
I believe in ten hag more than any other manager we've had since fergie. Top 4 and a cup would cap off a decent season. We're about a 4th or 5th side imo. But I won't get excited about us winning the league or ucl in a few seasons let alone next season. He's still got a lot of improvement to do personally.
Since that final we've been very poor performance wise bar a few games. We've been embarrassed by Liverpool, Newcastle and Sevilla with abject performances. His in game management has also been crap from how it started. I don't know if this is a blip but it's worrying. But my biggest worry about our trajectory under him is a lack of control in games. Even at 2-0 yesterday you could tell we're not comfortable.
Another worry is his signings have been largely average. Martinez has been excellent. Eriksen has been steady but not a long term solution. You can tell he's a ex-spurs player. Generally plays poorly when it matters. Malacia has been very poor recently although he's young. Anthony has been average. Casamiero has been overrated but say he's been ok and nothing exceptional.And weghorst has been diabolical. We needed these players to show consistency and an upward level consistently.
The past 10 years at united has seen a similar pattern in that we've had a very poor season, the manager gets sacked, and the new manager comes in, wins a small cup and then gets found out the following season. Rinse and repeat. Is it the ownerships fault? Partly yes. But we've spent huge amounts of money. Is it the people underneath the ownership? Hugely! Because the recruitment has been rubbish. For that the glazers are to blame as well. They probably couldn't name you 10 players in Europe.
I believe in ten hag more than any other manager we've had since fergie. Top 4 and a cup would cap off a decent season. We're about a 4th or 5th side imo. But I won't get excited about us winning the league or ucl in a few seasons let alone next season. He's still got a lot of improvement to do personally.
I didn't. Through all the hiccups I thought you could see what Arteta was trying to build and implement, as well as gradual progress. If anything I think many of us are guilty of looking too hard on the results in what was supposed to be a season of rebuilding. What concerns me right now is that we have regressed during the season. We looked very bright and positive up until January but since then I honestly don't think we're looking any better than we did under Ole, and that's despite a +200 million outlay in the summer. You can find some excuses such as fatigue, for which ETH also bears some responsibility, but the fact is we're on a downwards curve right now and that's not the greatest feeling at the end of the first season under a new manager.
Also, he doesn't have to play Weghorst, even when Martial is out. He could go with Rashford up front and Sancho on the left, like yesterday. But for many games this season, he's chosen to play Weghorst.
I don't have an issue with his limited rotation. He tried fielding a second-stringer team in the first EL game at home to Real Sociedad, and look how that went. After that, never. It's not just about advancing, it's also about setting a team, building relations on the pitch and getting buy-in through good results. You can always quibble with individual decisions, but all things considered I think he's taken the right approach.
Also, our lack of squad depth is overstated by a lot of people here. I don't think our depth is bad. We have a problem at striker obviously, and we don't have a real alternative to Casemiro, but other than that we generally have pretty decent coverage. There are five players in the squad who were regular starters a year or two ago, and who are backups now. Whatever you think about Maguire, having him as backup for Martinez is a good deal better than having Tuanzebe or Bailly as backup for him.
Also, our lack of squad depth is overstated by a lot of people here. I don't think our depth is bad. We have a problem at striker obviously, and we don't have a real alternative to Casemiro, but other than that we generally have pretty decent coverage. There are five players in the squad who were regular starters a year or two ago, and who are backups now. Whatever you think about Maguire, having him as backup for Martinez is a good deal better than having Tuanzebe or Bailly as backup for him.
I think it's more a case of key players being burnt out, because he's had to play them too much due to the rest of the squad just not being good enough.
We can laugh about Wout, at this stage in his first season Klopp was playing an on loan centre back in Stephen Caulker up front.
For ETH to be a success here, there’s a lot of players in the squad who need to be binned off because they don't have the technical levels he requires.
I'm not saying the subs are shit. I'm saying Wout is shit. He's been given enough chances.
Did Ole have to manage in a condensed season with:
- World Cup in the middle of it.
- Two games postponed and crammed in further down the schedule due to the Queen dying.
- Unneeded two leg play-off in the Europa League.
- Playing almost every game of every competition (3 games off playing every possible match)
- Multiple month long injuries for about 5-6 key players.
And also win a trophy and reach the final of another?
Cut the players and manager some slack. You don't deserve any future success supporting this club because you're just an absolute ghoul any time things aren't perfect.
Exactly how I see it.
We haven’t got a fecking striker!!
why are so many of you so bereft of contextual reasoning or critical thinking?
Well they did.
If other clubs had been better in previous seasons we might not have won as many leagues. If Chelsea weren't so shit we'd be 6th. If Brighton were a bit better we'd be 7th. If Messi wasn't born we might have 2 more CLs. If you thought more you might not make pointless posts like this. Everything is an if.
Fred’s inability to keep possession is conference level.he cost us 50 million. If we’re going to have a summer clear out the scouting network and negotiations team need to go on a madness.
He has done a very good job with that set of players. Some of the takes in here seem very reactionary, but that's the nature of it I suppose.
Constant negativity not posted in a constructive way - accumulation over months
I supported Ole and other managers to the bitter end. Unlike most on here. They are the ones who deserve nothing. Throwing Ole under the bus for a flavour of the month manager and a squad who will never ever get close to the big trophies.
He will have a pre-season and another window to get the key players he needs. Thereafter he won't have any excuse over the team's playing style.
Hopefully he does. Tired of the team being similarly erratic and I wish one day we will have the game management skills to see through the game at 2-0 by out passing the opponent, like we used to do in Fergie's time.
Hopefully he does. Tired of the team being similarly erratic and I wish one day we will have the game management skills to see through the game at 2-0 by out passing the opponent, like we used to do in Fergie's time.
If Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Napoli, Shanghai Shenhua and AlNassr were playing in the Premier League we have no chance in getting top 4.
And you've stopped supporting the current manager before he's even finished a season.
Needs to somehow drag us over the line and bin about 6-7 players in the summer. Don't blame him much, too many players are nowhere near good enough and haven't been for years. I just don't know how we're going to flog them
I do think there's extremes going both ways. There's a crowd in here just waiting to pounce on bad results with some OTT criticism. But I also think some of the praise is OTT.
I would have said he's done a fantastic job prior to the cup final, but we've had some disastrous/results performances since then that can't be ignored. Pointing out critiques doesn't mean you're not a supporter.
I'm also a bit less confident in him because of his management since then, but hopefully he can improve next season. I just hope our summer window is excellent, because we need it to be.
I would have said he's done a fantastic job prior to the cup final, but we've had some disastrous/results performances since then that can't be ignored. Pointing out critiques doesn't mean you're not a supporter.
I'm also a bit less confident in him because of his management since then, but hopefully he can improve next season. I just hope our summer window is excellent, because we need it to be.
Outed himself with that one didn't he., so what changed?
He's already outperformed Ole on the silverware front.
So you're not supporting a manger who's literally achieved more than Ole has in less time?
Back in my days..... I supported the manager through thick and thin, my mantra was "if I don't deserve him at his worst, I sure as hell don't deserve him at his best!!!" I used to cry every night when celebrities and managers were wronged. I used to wake up and wear my Britney Spears make up because I was such a fighter for underpeople (underdogs people) who are treated badly by the online media (forums).
DDG, Fred, Wan Bissaka, Maguire, McT plus many more. They just don't have the technical levels on the ball and quickness of mind and feet to be good enough.
ETH needs another 6/7 players of starting quality, to fully implement his style and team the way he wants to play.
There's a group of staunch Ole supporters that always pop up after we drop points. Some are more subtle than others but it's no surprise to see the usual suspects appear with their expert analysis.
The best one is still, if Liverpool were better we'd be 5th. Always using hypothetical scenarios to downplay the progress we've made.
I'm very much pro Erik but the concerns are valid right now.
I really do question how much of the improvement of the team is based on just having better performing players.
Casemiro and Rashford have been the real game changers this season and anytime they are out of form or unavailable we don't look good.
Don't get me wrong there have certainly been improvements but if Ole's teams had the Casemiro we had for most of the season there wouldn't be much of a difference in the end results.
Erik's team is obviously on a journey and this is just his first year so I'm hopeful he'll make the right decisions to see us improve considerably from next season.
I really do question how much of the improvement of the team is based on just having better performing players.
Casemiro and Rashford have been the real game changers this season and anytime they are out of form or unavailable we don't look good.
Don't get me wrong there have certainly been improvements but if Ole's teams had the Casemiro we had for most of the season there wouldn't be much of a difference in the end results.
Erik's team is obviously on a journey and this is just his first year so I'm hopeful he'll make the right decisions to see us improve considerably from next season.
And when people said "Ole only got second because Liverpool and Chelsea turned to shit" it was ridiculed by the exact same people using it against ETH. Oh, the double standards.
At least you hid the fact that you're an Ole fanboi for nearly a full season. That deserves praise, so well played. Others are far more obvious, but you managed to conceal it. Though, given your hysterical criticism, I can't say that there weren't any red flags.
Putting on Weghorst instead of Sabitzer is extremely troubling in my opinion.
What an amazing season ETH has. First the league cup win, then fa cup finalist together with an almost sure chance of getting Top 4.
Plus the evolvement of Rashford and purchase of Casemiro, Eriksen has totally transformed the midfield into a top club. Then he is able to help the rising stars like Garnacho, Sabitzer, Martinez emerge as top new blood. Totally incredible season.
Plus the evolvement of Rashford and purchase of Casemiro, Eriksen has totally transformed the midfield into a top club. Then he is able to help the rising stars like Garnacho, Sabitzer, Martinez emerge as top new blood. Totally incredible season.
To be fair, we did look good without Rashford in some games recently, and even with Bruno in deeper midfield I think we looked like a proper team.
My concern is also about how much this improvement is caused by simply having players like Casemiro and Martinez in the team. Erik gets the praise for bringing the latter to the team, the former not so much.
Ole had a better attack compared to what we have now, fully fit Martial, Greenwood and Rashford were all scoring goals even if the rest of the team was weaker.
At this point I am convinced ETH is the right man for the job, but we're a very weird team. Our top level is very high (we could probably challenge for the title if we could play our best XI all the time), but our bottom level is very poor and not sure how much this is down to players, and how much down to the manager.
I hope some in here have a little read upon reflection of EtH this season:
- Inherited the team that got Ole sacked and refused/disliked working with Wreck-It Ralf.
- Had to deal with a non-compliant Ronaldo.
- Had to learn all the players and what they're capable of
- Old Trafford returned to a fortress this season (29 games, 2 losses, wins against 5/6 of the top teams)
- Was given no real support in January despite only having Rashford & Antony as regular attacking options and no actual striker
- Has been dealt so dubious fixtures, refereeing results & injuries off the back of it
- Has had to work with a paper thin squad and some how paper over the cracks while bringing this squad through 60+ games (losing Case, Martinez, Rashford, Garnacho, Varane etc)
- Has one 1 trophy, is in another final and still 6 points clear of 5th with 2 games in hand
Yes the results are starting to falter now but come on, we knew about this squad, we've seen how mentally weak they've been in the last 2 seasons, and it was nowhere near ready to be playing a game every 4 days but the man deserves some credit for how far he's brought us and some serious backing in the summer.
Edit: I'm sure I've missed even bigger things too like beating a top of the League Barcelona, the man deserves our backing and anything to contrary has to be agenda driven as upon reflection of our season we'd of snatched your hand off at this.
- Inherited the team that got Ole sacked and refused/disliked working with Wreck-It Ralf.
- Had to deal with a non-compliant Ronaldo.
- Had to learn all the players and what they're capable of
- Old Trafford returned to a fortress this season (29 games, 2 losses, wins against 5/6 of the top teams)
- Was given no real support in January despite only having Rashford & Antony as regular attacking options and no actual striker
- Has been dealt so dubious fixtures, refereeing results & injuries off the back of it
- Has had to work with a paper thin squad and some how paper over the cracks while bringing this squad through 60+ games (losing Case, Martinez, Rashford, Garnacho, Varane etc)
- Has one 1 trophy, is in another final and still 6 points clear of 5th with 2 games in hand
Yes the results are starting to falter now but come on, we knew about this squad, we've seen how mentally weak they've been in the last 2 seasons, and it was nowhere near ready to be playing a game every 4 days but the man deserves some credit for how far he's brought us and some serious backing in the summer.
Edit: I'm sure I've missed even bigger things too like beating a top of the League Barcelona, the man deserves our backing and anything to contrary has to be agenda driven as upon reflection of our season we'd of snatched your hand off at this.
surprised so many are bedwetting after an away draw at Spurs which is another step towards returning to the Champions League
the team is on its arse from fixture congestion and we played 120 mins a few days ago
a trophy and top four after the shambles of last season along the Ronaldo debacle / lack of striker, is borderline miracle work from ETH
the team is on its arse from fixture congestion and we played 120 mins a few days ago
a trophy and top four after the shambles of last season along the Ronaldo debacle / lack of striker, is borderline miracle work from ETH