Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[Chumpsbechumps]

So, under what metric do we think he will get another season?

This is a very interesting question. In a normal season/cycle this wouldn’t even be up for debate and it would be an easy sacking.

But the clubs ownership and entire footballing structure has been up in the air for the majority of the time he’s been here. How much will INEOs consider that a factor , along with injuries ?

Perhaps INEOs have been using the last few months, among other things, to assess player application and responses to a really tough situation. Also looking internally at the club where we struggle to address issues and have any meaningful sort of plan to help our squads/managers.

I feel that before Christmas we were playing more defensive of sorts in the league . But since Christmas we have been playing more like we did in CL groups. There was 33 goals in our first 16 EPL games, there’s been 62 (almost double) in the last 16 games. Since Radcliff took over in Christmas it’s like ETH has just said “f**k it” and gone for it.

Is that because he knew he was gone or did SJR say that he wants to see what sort of football ETH intends on playing? I’d love to think that what we’ve seen the last few months has been some sort of long term plan by INEOs, prepared to write off the season entirely , to try and really see what sort of players are needed for a certain style of football.

Mind you, I wouldn’t bet on it, I’d say it’s as much down to how well ETH may work within INEOs strategy that could determine things.

 

[Robocrap]

Can those who still support Ten Hag please say so and justify. I'd like to know the reasons.

Goldbridge and his minions reasoning for example is that if we sack Ten Hag the new manager will give all players a clean slate and "Player Power" will win again. And if we sack the manager we won't get rid of the players that is the main fault for the season going wrong. My stance is that you can do both. Is isn't a black and white issue. Both the players AND the manager is the problem.

 

[JPRouve]

I think we can assume that he's trying to problem solve. If anything, it's hard to see any other reason than pragmatism why we're playing the way we're playing. It's not hard to see how that is in response to the strengths and limitations of the available players. We're presumably defending deep and narrow because that's what most of our defenders does best, and putting an extreme emphasis on quick transitions in the attack because that's what our attackers are best at. But it's not working. I'd have preferred a less pragmatic approach myself.

I can't assume that when we have done the same things since preseason. And I can't point to any pragmatism or any practical mindset when there has been next to zero difference in our approach with different personnel. A pragmatic approach would have seen us fix the gap between midfield and attack in our defensive transition which is what we did last season. You can move the back 6 up or drop the front 4 deeper, last year we did the latter and were perfectly fine, in fact based on advanced stats we were able to create far more good chances.

What we are doing isn't pragmatic, it's grounded in theory and isn't working when practiced, It clearly follows some dogma. Which is what you are describing, a theory and theoritical answers to observed issues, a pragmatic approach would start from that theoritical point, try something, realize that it doesn't work and move to something else that may work based on the knowledge you gained from your previous attempt.

And to me it's important to point out that our issue isn't the defensive line or wanting to play in transition. It's that the system the way it is designed promotes unmanageable chaos, the front four is totally detached from the back 6 and whenever the front 4 can't quickly regain possession which is most of the time(that's true for all teams) then we are by design outnumbered and out of position due to how quickly the front four will generally be bypassed, we also clearly have issues with assignments later in the defensive transition but that's secondary. If you look at advanced stats from Opta you will see that our press is average we are 9th or 10th in passes allowed in the opposition defensive third and total turnovers created. We are a middling pressing team that employs a reckless system that would still be dangerous if we were very good at pressing.

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/08/premier-league-stats-2023-24/ (The last update is from today)

 

[justsomebloke]

I can't assume that when we have done the same things since preseason. And I can't point to any pragmatism or any practical mindset when there has been next to zero difference in our approach with different personnel. A pragmatic approach would have seen us fix the gap between midfield and attack in our defensive transition which is what we did last season. You can move the back 6 up or drop the front 4 deeper, last year we did the latter and were perfectly fine, in fact based on advanced stats we were able to create far more good chances.

What we are doing isn't pragmatic, it's grounded in theory and isn't working when practiced, It clearly follows some dogma. Which is what you are describing, a theory and theoritical answers to observed issues, a pragmatic approach would start from that theoritical point, try something, realize that it doesn't work and move to something else that may work based on the knowledge you gained from your previous attempt.

And to me it's important to point out that our issue isn't the defensive line or wanting to play in transition. It's that the system the way it is designed promotes unmanageable chaos, the front four is totally detached from the back 6 and whenever the front 4 can't quickly regain possession which is most of the time(that's true for all teams) then we are by design outnumbered and out of position due to how quickly the front four will generally be bypassed, we also clearly have issues with assignments later in the defensive transition but that's secondary. If you look at advanced stats from Opta you will see that our press is average we are 9th or 10th in passes allowed in the opposition defensive third and total turnovers created. We are a middling pressing team that employs a reckless system that would still be dangerous if we were very good at pressing.

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/08/premier-league-stats-2023-24/ (The last update is from today)

I sincerely hope that pressing high with our forwards while playing a low defensive line and having the CMs man-mark, resulting in oceans of space down the middle, isn't grounded in theory and represents how we would ideally like to play. Same goes for making no attempt to control the space around our box, in favor of packing the box and relying on blocking shots. It seems to me a good deal more plausible to assume that rather reflects the available personnel, which have generally lacked the pace to keep the line high enough to be more compact, which we were last season.

 

[Rista]

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He "always" brings out the maximum of each squad. Are you sure Erik?

He's gone. He has started rambling about his personal achievements and bigging up irrelevant results lately.

 

[JPRouve]

I sincerely hope that pressing high with our forwards while playing a low defensive line and having the CMs man-mark, resulting in oceans of space down the middle, isn't grounded in theory and represents how we would ideally like to play. Same goes for making no attempt to control the space around our box, in favor of packing the box and relying on blocking shots. It seems to me a good deal more plausible to assume that rather reflects the available personnel, which have generally lacked the pace to keep the line high enough to be more compact, which we were last season.

Last season we had one of the lowest line in the league with the same personnel. And we were playing the same way during preseason when everyone was available. Our average line height is actually higher this season than last year from 42.92m to 43.36m.

 

[Rista]

Goldbridge and his minions reasoning for example is that if we sack Ten Hag the new manager will give all players a clean slate and "Player Power" will win again. And if we sack the manager we won't get rid of the players that is the main fault for the season going wrong. My stance is that you can do both. Is isn't a black and white issue. Both the players AND the manager is the problem.

It's the dumbest argument ever. What's worse is that it's the same people who go on about new structure being a game changer. They say we'll do things differently now but still insist bringing in a new manager will mean "all players will get a chance". Somewhat ironic too since they want to give EtH chance after chance.

 

[justsomebloke]

Last season we had one of the lowest line in the league with the same personnel. And we were playing the same way during preseason when everyone was available. Our average line height is actually higher this season than last year from 42.92m to 43.36m.

That's surprising. And raises the question of why we have so much less midfield control this season - that's really different. Also, we didn't collapse into pure box defence in our third last season, the way we are now.

 

[justsomebloke]

It's the dumbest argument ever. What's worse is that it's the same people who go on about new structure being a game changer. They say we'll do things differently now but still insist bringing in a new manager will mean "all players will get a chance". Somewhat ironic too since they want to give EtH chance after chance.

Goldbridge is an idiot.

 

[JPRouve]

That's surprising. And raises the question of why we have so much less midfield control this season - that's really different. Also, we didn't collapse into pure box defence in our third last season, the way we are now.

I tried to tell you why. The front 4 is set differently, the gap between the front four and the back 6 is wider which creates chaos, it's nearly impossible for any team to properly contain the opposition and do it methodically when you are by design outnumbered and leave massive gaps that allow the opposition to attack you without pressure.

 

[Rightnr]

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Absolute clown. Someone should ask him about the CL.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

To sum up how bad this season has been, I don't think any of the other 19 PL managers who are currently employed would have done as badly as ten Hag has this season.

This is the lowest United have been this century. You're coming off a trophy and 3rd place finish. Steep decline, but the warning signs were there.

• Record breaking 17 defeats in all competitions
• -1 GD in April
• Out of Europe before Christmas with a -3 GD
• Knocked out of The League Cup by a Newcastle team which had Dummett and Krafth (1st start after an ACL injury) playing at CB. Clean sheet.

 

[UnitedSofa]

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[Laurencio]

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Reliable?

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

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.. doubt it’s true but it would be funny. Not sure how he’s supposed to do that with just 6 games left

 

[The Hilton]

No, you don't understand. A qualified and credible appointment has a better chance of landing the right conclusion than you do.

I think your sarcasm detector may have malfunctioned

 

[VP89]

I think your sarcasm detector may have malfunctioned

Ha, perhaps

 

[Berbaclass]

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Very interesting. Quite like this idea. Not only for ETH but the players also. Might as well get used to the new style.

 

[Adisa]

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As it should be. I have defended ETH to the hilt but the football at the moment is unacceptable.

 

[VP89]

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Reliable?

No. Alan Nixon has been quite fairy tail in his tweets of late.

 

[The Hilton]

Despite the fact that I went out of my way to say that wasn’t what I was alluding to? The poster I quoted said we should trust the outcome of said audit and their reason for it boiled down to “because experienced people” - and I simply said experienced people get it wrong all the time/are not infallible, and concerns regarding the manager based on available and observable evidence don’t just disappear because Wilcox decides to carry on with them.

Though I’m guessing a commitment to trusting decision-making that’s at the very least questionable, because “experienced people”, isn’t completely out of form here and explains why some have been arguing in favour of a clearly underperforming manager for months.

If the decision is to keep him - what am I going to do besides posting “I’m not sure about this one”? That doesn’t mean I’m calling Wilcox a fraud or whatever you guys got heated about

If they do decide to keep him then at the very least some reflection is in order, even before posting "I'm not sure about this one".

If our highly rated and experienced new Technical Director, with access to much more information about our problems than we have, thinks that we're better off keeping the manager than pivoting to a new one, then there's likely at least some merit to the decision. Perhaps he's aware of some things that you aren't, or there are some things you hold to be true that he is aware aren't. Perhaps he doesn't apportion blame for some situations the same way you do. If you're going to write it off as wrong before genuinely considering why it might be, that just boils down to zealotry.

It works the same the other way as well. If Wilcox decides to part ways with ETH, then his supporters will need to accept that there's likely some solid reasoning behind it, rather than a reactionary knee-jerk.

 

[Xaviboy]

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But I thought Ten Hag can't play that type possesion football with these players.

Ten Hag gone end of season. Tuchel or Di Zerbi then if INEOS want that type of football. Might control games instead of ping pong football.

 

[horsechoker]

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I doubt the veracity of this but it would be pointless getting him to change the football at this point. Either get someone new in or start planning for the summer.

 

[Sarni]

Reliable?

Of course no. Wilcox will not be giving ETH orders on tactics. His job will be to help him build structure that will make his job easier, basically assisting ETH not ordering him around.

 

[groovyalbert]

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Ah yes, the oracle of Utd... Reluctantnicko

 

[glazed]

All top clubs do these pre season tours, what's so special about our squad that it isn't adequate for us but City, Arsenal, Liverpool have coped?

I heard it suggested that ours were more strenuous. Can't say I know if it's true or not.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

That last tweet sounds like complete nonsense made up by some nobody.

 

[hobbers]

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How do people write this crap and how do more believe it? Have to be so ignorant of how football works to think a new technical director will swan into any club and immediately start dictating to the manager to play a different style of football.

Same as those who were saying ETH deserves a shot under Ashworth because he'll be the one 'deciding the playstyle' and ETH will be freed up to... ? Coach someone else's philosophy, apparently?

If they do not like how ETH sets us up then there's only one option - sack him and hire a manager with a philosophy and style that the executives want. Just like what City and Liverpool did.

 

[Berbaclass]

How do people write this crap and how do more believe it?

Some people are so ignorant of how football works as to think a new technical director will swan into any club and immediately start dictating to the manager to play a different style of football.

Same as those who were saying ETH deserves a shot under Ashworth because he'll be the one 'deciding the playstyle' and ETH will be freed up to... ? Coach someone else's philosophy, apparently?

If they do not like how ETH sets us up then there's only one option - sack him and hire a manager with a philosophy and style that the executives want. Just like what City and Liverpool did.

I don’t think it’s particularly far fetched to suggest new ownership/structure will dictate the style of play.

Also to appoint a new manager who fits that philosophy.

 

[hobbers]

I don’t think it’s particularly far fetched to suggest new ownership/structure will dictate the style of play.

So long as you accept that the only way they can dictate the style of play is by hiring a head coach who plays that way.

Ashworth and Wilcox are directors, they dont understand the first thing about how to coach footballers to play possession football or transition football or whatever.

 

[DavelinaJolie]

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Yeah not buying this. If they want a change of approach on the pitch they'll just look for a new manager, I very much doubt they are mandating this kind of thing to keep ETH on.

 

[saivet]

So long as you accept that the only way they can dictate the style of play is by hiring a head coach who plays that way.

Ashworth and Wilcox are directors, they dont understand the first thing about how to coach footballers to play possession football or transition football or whatever.

They're directors with coaching and technical experience in football. That's not to say they could jump in as interim manager but they are qualified enough to be able to determine whether ETH is meeting certain stylistic measures they might have.

The tweet is over simplistic and likely nonsense but Wilcox may be telling ETH what his vision for the club is and it will be in ETH's best interest to try and prove he is the right guy.

 

[JPRouve]

So long as you accept that the only way they can dictate the style of play is by hiring a head coach who plays that way.

Ashworth and Wilcox are directors, they dont understand the first thing about how to coach footballers to play possession football or transition football or whatever.

That's a bit reductive especially when both coached, both worked in youth development and both played Football. They likely both have a pretty good idea about how to coach footballers. Now I don't believe that the report is true simply because it reads like an obvious trap, you can't expect to see drastic tactical changes at this point of the season.

 

[Lee565]

Tell me on good reason you're keeping Maguire and Lindeløf?

Two players who since they started making start or appearance dating back to the Sevilla Europa League Last season we've been shifting goals in for fun.

Hell no, both should be sold they are not good enough and never will be.

In fairness martinez has been part of our defence in a majority of our biggest loses since ten hag has been here and I feel sorry for our defence this season which Maguire has been a regular in with how open we are with no protection from midfield, even Coventry could rack up shots in double digits

 

[Lee565]

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Over performing... really when in the semi final we scrapped past the mighty Coventry on penalties and was missing only two first team players from our starting 11

 

[DavelinaJolie]

Tell me on good reason you're keeping Maguire and Lindeløf?

Two players who since they started making start or appearance dating back to the Sevilla Europa League Last season we've been shifting goals in for fun.

Hell no, both should be sold they are not good enough and never will be.

Well I'd guess a good reason is, given Varane is leaving, our CB position would be Martinez and Kambwala. Trying to bring in 3 CBs, one of whom will need to be a starter, will be prohibitively expensive and that much turnover will have a detrimental impact leading into the season.

I think we all know certain players need to be moved on, but there's only so much business a club can do in one window, particularly when they're up against it financially. It's fantastical to assume we would be able to shift and replace half the squad as much as many of us would hope.

 

[Gaidal]

Possessionbased with Case as a cb is gonna see us lose 10-0

 

[Berbaclass]

So long as you accept that the only way they can dictate the style of play is by hiring a head coach who plays that way.

Ashworth and Wilcox are directors, they dont understand the first thing about how to coach footballers to play possession football or transition football or whatever.

Don’t agree with this. Both have decent backgrounds

 

[hobbers]

Don’t agree with this. Both have decent backgrounds

Doesn't matter, neither were hired to do the job of a coach in any case.

Else feck it, let's sack Ten Hag and make Ashworth the manager, Wilcox can replace McLaren.

It's well known at City that if they had failed to get Pep they were going to make Txiki manager.

 

[croadyman]

How hard were they on Klopp last season? Bollocks.

Do you think they would talk like this to Guardiola? He tells them their job sucks to their faces. They bend over for him and take it.

Think back to the opening game and the Onana penalty call that wasn’t given. Have you ever seen such a media reaction to that, and a fecking apology from the Refs to Wolves? (I don’t think it was a penalty).


Crickets if we don’t get a penalty (Højlund against Arsenal, Romero blocks Garnacho shot with arm against Spurs).

They won’t even show you the replay most of the time.

Nah man, there is a real media bias against us.

Yeah because you wouldn't see Klopp or Guardiola chuck away a 3-0 lead against lower league side. Like others have said he is getting off quite lightly from the media. I also wouldn't have called them a disgrace either,feel he could have got his point across without saying that.

They do really lack the balls to ask him about Rashford lacklustre performances in pressers and we all know why.