We're definitely in a worse place now than we were when Ole got sacked. I don't know how you can possibly think it's in the club's best interest to let this guy remain in charge till the new year. Scary to imagine the damage done by then.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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He eluded to it in Neville's interview, refusing to stop the process with pragmatism and persevere with the philosophy. It will probably be his end, but as I say, I don't think the way we've played this season is his grand vision for our style.
I don't really disagree with you, but by your own admission, it's a gamble to at least some degree, and with that in mind, I just don't see why you'd already be turning on INEOS.
Well his belief is seemingly to persevere with the philosophy of playing out from the back, high pressing and constantly drilling players on knowing their role inside out. The problem is the style he's trying to implement is quite suicidal if the players don't know it well or can't execute it properly (as was the case even with Ajax). When it works its scintillating and when it doesn't work it's clueless. I don't think Ten Hag's vision is to have the players running around like headless chickens, but he also acknowledges within himself that this is a mandatory step toward progression.
That would mean that he deliberately sabotaged an entire season out of belief that it would be beneficial long-term (even though there have been no signs of things improving thus far). Do you think that is a sound decision?
Then why are we playing different from last season? And before you start with the injuries bullshit we’ve played this way with a fully fit squad, so this is absolutely by design despite not having the players with the skillset to do so. And you’ve still not explained how the structure will stop this madness from happening.
It's been like this since 2013 with 6 different managers. I'm not saying Ten Hag is the way to go, but we've tried the whole "appoint a new manager and hope for the best" and it hasn't worked so far. We can appoint a new manager, sure, but INEOS should tidy up the organisation primarily. Everyone wanted to behead Ole toward the end and now we see posts about bringing him back... A lot of people here think everything would be clouds made of cotton-candy, houses made of choclate, sunshine and roses in happy land if we just simply appoint a new manager.
Ten Hag may not be up to the task but his squad is fecking dogshite and made of glass.
I am not. I just think that it is the wrong decision to not sack him, thus I am less optimistic about them than when they got the club.
Obviously, the real benchmark is what they do in the summer (and inevitably how things go after those decisions). Unless they keep him, of course, in which case, I am completely done with this club and football (but not with Caf).
This post is important to understand the discussion on here. Everybody seems to agree that it can't go on as it is. So either EtH understands that and can't do anything about it currently due to factors out of his reach (like you seam to believe), or he could change it, but doesn't want to or isn't able to. In that case he needs to go.
So far I haven't seen any indication that this isn't how EtH wants to play in general, as he justifies specifics of this tactical setups (like the amount of shots conceded by pointing to their low quality). So I believe you are fundamentally wrong and he deserves to be sacked. But you could be right. I really don't see how, but still.
He's not right in any way. Quality of shots conceded is just mildly below average expected goals against per shot, we are just incredibly lucky that our opposition have failed to convert them at enormous levels.
It is however regressing back to norm, and will eventually be where it should be (we should be on 17-18 more goals conceded than we are).
Arsenal weren't as far gone as us. We have much stricter FFP, we still have the Glazers, we have shite facilities while they have state of the art. And even then they have yet to win anything.
Fans just say what they want to happen without any critical facilities.
He's not deliberately sabotaging anything. He has faith that it will click (like it did with Ajax, after the dressing room turned on him too!). Of course the 'when' in that is a bit unknown and when players drop like flies it doesn't help maintain continuity in a particular system.
This is not to exonerate him from all fault of course, but just trying to contextualise his stubbornness and the logic behind it. That stubbornness may well get him sacked, who knows.
Last season was counter attacking football not in line with our ethos or philosophy. Early doors this season, Ten Hag came out and explained 2 things, 1) that he was in sync with those above him on how they wanted him to play and he made it clear it was quick transitional football with a high press and 2) he was told to focus more upon the youth which meant there would be more rawness in attack (this was also briefed early doors when we decided to go for Hojlund).
A competent structure helps him (or any previous/future manager) because 1) He will have better medical staff and fitness coaches to manage injuries, 2) he will be reduced in dependence for transfers, challenged more on his suggestions and in relevant cases, overridden in favour of more qualified scout targets, and finally 3) in sync with those above him in establishing a standard of excellence and discipline that has been missing at the club for many years. Ole actually set the club back many years in the professionalism and discipline standards, and Ten Hag was specifically asked to bring this back. Problem is he cant do that on his own and the message needs to be vertical from Berrada to Ashworth to Wilcox to the manager, and down to the players. This stops player power from running the roost and helps stop turning our club into a soap opra (irrespective of who the coach is).
Cheers, I'm trying to actually explain and work with those on the other side of the fence to give some context here. I'll wait and see how long it is until I'm called a worshippper or a *******, despite acknowledging that it can't be argued against sacking him either.
I read this thread a lot but don't comment much. Find it a little too much at times with the responses.
That said I am kind of picking on your point here, but genuinely as a question/discussing point and not to have, what I feel happens often on this thread, a go at you or your points.
The point in question is the 9m payment.
Now I don't know the answer, hence the post. But would it not be that this season ETH had got into the CL so the pay off would be more?
As I understand players have contracts whereby getting into the CL means more money in wages. So this season a player on say 90k will have been paid 100k. For the whole season.
I'm assuming managers have similar "bonuses" in their contracts?
As they got into the CL that would be for the whole of the season despite early exit? Not qualifying this season would, taking my above example, mean 90k for the whole of next season despite even winning the Prem for example? The bonus kicking in when won and qualification for the CL achieved.
My point is would sacking eth at the end of the season be cheaper than now? As sacking him now would be sacking a manager that achieved CL?
Close this thread, we need people to channel their thoughts and ideas on other threads because everything now is sounding like a broken record.
ETH has been the biggest disappointment in the recent memory. How people are seeing it now is the astonishing part.
How can you win a football game without a midfield. Us who saw it long ago @el3mel being another one, we were called names.
We ship 4 goals 4 goals like it's normal business. Not even 4-4 or 4-3.. Naaaah we leak 4 goals while scoring none
but people miraculously want ETH to be a Pep competitor.How many times has Pep leaked 4 goals without scoring in his City career.
How can a top coach be leaking 6,7,4, goals like every 3 months in a 2 year period?
Any person supporting this kind of football and manager is a disgrace and utter delusional.
My point is that virtually everyone in here agrees the organizational structure is a mess that has to be cleaned up and that has exacerbated all our problems since SAF retired.
However, while it's made every manager's job more difficult (and imposed a ceiling on what they can realistically achieve here), it ultimately doesn't absolve them of their failings. Using "structure" as a magic incantation doesn't negate the fact that ETH has failed to achieve even the bare minimum requirements this season, and has instead delivered performances and results of the lowest possible quality.
I know that dipper gobshite Carragher was saying it last night but it seems to me a bit unlikely that a man with a reputation for being a very good coach is in fact a terrible coach. Might there be some other factor at work here? Is it possible that there is some complexity in play here? Some other reasons?
Just have faith and give ETH 10 more years to work his magic mate, then we'll hopefully be finishing Top 7 in the regular to try for some European trophies and hopefully win an FA Cup or two in that time.
Close this thread, we need people to channel their thoughts and ideas on other threads because everything now is sounding like a broken record.
ETH has been the biggest disappointment in the recent memory. How people are seeing it now is the astonishing part.
How can you win a football game without a midfield. Us who saw it long ago @el3mel being another one, we were called names.
We ship 4 goals 4 goals like it's normal business. Not even 4-4 or 4-3.. Naaaah we leak 4 goals while scoring none
How many times has Pep leaked 4 goals without scoring in his City career.
How can a top coach be leaking 6,7,4, goals like every 3 months in a 2 year period?
Any person supporting this kind of football and manager is a disgrace and utter delusional.
Our players are obviously not good enough so it's not ETH's fault at all that that's all we have to settle for, we can't dare to finish above City any time soon.
That's my thoughts too,however no chance McClaren is going to be taking over this late. I think we may as well just accept he is going to be here for another 3 weeks. We could get a proper thrashing on Sunday and he still oversees the last 3 games anyway.
I see people referring to his interview and how he went on about his grand plan and why he is reluctant to move away from it. How when things fall into place we will be incredibly amazing and all.
The guy is a snake oil salesman and I just hope INEOS don’t fall for this nonsense. If we are going to always require everything to work perfectly or else we can be as exposed as we have been all season then the whole grand plan can be binned immediately.
The guy is a snake oil salesman and I just hope INEOS don’t fall for this nonsense. If we are going to always require everything to work perfectly or else we can be as exposed as we have been all season then the whole grand plan can be binned immediately.
I don't know what the board is thinking here ..
Fire him.. get Fletcher, Wilcox or even the kitman in charge
Arsenal's fans were moaning about Kroenke until recently. The facilities thing is slightly overstated (yes, certain things were neglected too long, but they've started to update stuff; it's not like they don't have training pitches or recovery cryochambers or monitoring machines or proper gym facilities or a pool or the various things players demand and top clubs need). The organization of coaching is more important than random pieces of tech or having a couple of extra pitches. Arsenal benefited from having a very good head coach whose vision was also longer-term suitable for the league - Arteta has his own eccentricities, but by all accounts is quite charismatic, and is clearly a good communicator . Even back in Holland there were whispers that ETH had issues around the latter, though it impacted less at Ajax, and the 2nd language issues have impaired him slightly more than, say, Klopp, or Tuchel for that matter: Arteta, of course, worked in UK for years as a player and coach prior to managing, and speaks excellent English. Arsenal also benefited from new Execs (sound familiar?) who were willing to take a firmer line on dispensing with ageing, under-performing players, even if it cost them 'on the books' to pay them off. I don't think Utd are winning the title next season, but dependent on how things go with City (Pep's interest, the case) and Liverpool (new coach and already scurrilous whispers about senior pros being 'underwhelmed' because they wanted glitzy Alonso instead), it;;'s not out of the question that they're competing the season after that.
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Wasn't it at Crystal Palace where he watched us play for the first time when we were in full-on absolute shitfest mode? Last night was probably way worse than that performance too. It's maddening.
I think it is important to put the new structure in place before appointing another manager though. An interim would still make sense at this point.
It's quite funny how he can turn on this charm offensive when trying to sell his vision to the media in long-form interviews or to executives, but otherwise has zero charisma and communication skills.
Yeah come on it's only for 4 games after all,did INEOS not see Onana,Antony and Mount talking behind their hands at full time which tells me something is wrong
Yeah the lack of an interim is madness
Honestly, we cannot be 100% confident without seeing the contracts, but I cannot think of a single case where a club paid a manager or a player to break the contract more than their entire contract was worth. If we keep EtH for the next season, we need to pay him 6.75m for next season, and whatever is up to July (I guess 1.5m or so). I do not think any possible way how if we sack him we need to pay him more than that, that is basically the maximum we owe him if he finishes his contract.
So if we sack him, the difference is the salary of a new manager till the end of EtH's contract. At best, we save the salary of that caretaker if we sack EtH now compared to July.
Fergie was working magic back then wasn't he.... That wasn't even a one off. Good times!Poor Ten Hag had to play Casemiro in defence once. We lost 4-0 to Palace...
Indeed, they've hurled multiple coaches under buses.
We have no proof that it'll work in the PL, but we do have (lots of) proof that with the players available, it has led to a lot of "running around like headless chickens". Persisting with it to the extent he has done is nothing short of idiotic.
Yep. For example yesterday, Onana, Evans, Casemiro, Erikson, Mainoo, Amrabat, Mount, Garnacho, Antony, Hojlund, Diallo and Wheatley have downed their tools to sack Moyes, LvG, Mourinho, Ole, Rangnick. And the heretics are now doing the same to EtH.
Fecking hell
I know it’s and obvious question but why then is he setting us up this way if he doesn’t want to play this way?
You're right we don't. But I sort of want to see how it fares if we give it a bit of weeding out and the right players. When it works its way more fun to watch than zombie passing and winning games.
Anyone we can find who's managed in the PL before, andit would likely lead to a slight improvement.
New manager bounces are very real things.
I've been of the oipinion for weeks that it was pointless sacking him before the end of the season. But things are getting worse week on week, his position is now untenable. He has to go asap.
Those fecking players.
Agree
Genuine question: if you were the owner, how much money would you have been willing to spend (after the 400m+ already spent) on players suitable to play the football EtH wants? And how long you would be willing to wait?