I think they're undecided and are doing reliability tests. Wolff has said that if they do take one they will try and time it for a session where there's a mistake or accident causing Hamilton to start lower down the grid.
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
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Ahh makes sense. Thanks
To be fair I think most were faster on the hard tyre than they were on the medium tyre strangely enough but I could be wrong. Did seem that way to me. Max obviously had to switch to the mediums having started on the hards but I think Red Bull made the wrong call by bringing him in relatively early. I get that his tyres were wearing down quicker than others because he was constantly on someone's arse and overtaking people and that's no good for your tyres but to me it didn't seem like the hards he was on had completely gone when he went in. I mean there were people running the medium tyre who stopped later than Max. It looked as if Red Bull reacted to Hamilton pitting but I think they'd have been better off staying out on the hard tyre a bit longer.
A lot of the tyres were graining up early due to the green track. I guess they thought they tyres were ruined - but they actually started to clean up if you stuck with it. I think they were expecting a 2 stop race at this point but the track suddenly grew quicker quite fast.
He did say “I can’t turn the car” just before he pitted. Although that doesn’t necessarily mean much coming from him or Lewis.
Whether the call is wrong or not is not decided by the end result, you can't make a call based on what happens in the future that's unknown to you, that's ludicrous. It's decided by the information you have at the time because that's what you use to make the call. At the time, in the current conditions staying out was the correct call because the current tires were the better option in 2 of the 3 sectors and the inters would have been destroyed Lando wasn't struggling, and felt he could continue. Had McLaren known the rain was going to get worse then it would have been the wrong call but it seems like they didn't. If they came in for inters thinking conditions were staying the same, that would have been the wrong call. It only went south when the weather got worse, which Lando wasn't informed about. Had he known that, he'd have used that information to make a different call.
What they need to be asking themselves, is how they didn't know it was going to get worse when Mercedes did. That was the point that Lewis decided to change his opinion on the matter. But fundamentally, calls are correct or not based on the information you had at the time, not whatever happens afterwards. The call and the result are two completely separate things.
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Is there anything which suggests they didn’t know it was getting worse? I mean, I would assume the weather radar information for all teams would come from the same source. What i suspect is they had exactly the same information as Mercedes, but as with all weather forecasts they had hoped it wasn’t 100% accurate and would hold off a bit longer.
People are overthinking something that’s probably very very simple.
So would I, but they neglected to tell Lando on the radio so he can't be held responsible for not being psychic. He was performing completely fine when they asked him if he wanted to change and he rightly said no, he had 3 laps to go and was coping completely fine. Then it got worse and all of a sudden his car couldn't cope. If he knew that, he'd have made a different call.
I agree that it’s on the team who should have / could have interpreted the forecast differently and been more insistent on Lando. However, Lando takes some fault because he categorically told the team he did not want to come him. He didn’t remain calm, instead he barked back to the team on the radio. That’s Lando’s learning from this experience, might be first, might be 3 laps to go, but gotta stay calm in that situation to absorb the facts and make decisions based off of them. I can fully understand it mind. So close to his first win.
That's all true, but my point is it doesn't change if the call is right or wrong. The info he had showed that his current tyres were clearly the right choice. Had he had different info, he'd have known he was wrong and adjusted accordingly. The fact that he was stressed out, on the precipice of his first win, under pressure from Lewis and barked at his team to give him some quiet so he could concentrate is definitely his issue to fix, which will come with experience and maturity, but it also doesn't relate to the call he made which was correct with the info he had. It's a completely separate issue. When he barked at his team his team should have come back with 'Lando the rain is going to get worse very quickly'. We hear drivers snap at their engineers all the time, Max did it just before he hit Lewis the other week, Kimi does it on a weekly basis. We've seen instances at Mercedes where James or Toto come on the radio, McLaren should have done the same and insisted that the reason they were asking is because it was going to get a lot worse. Otherwise from Lando's perspective they're badgering him over the same thing for no reason without context while he's trying to hold off a 7 time world champion because the tyres were clearly ok at that moment in time.
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This is where I think you’re wrong. It’s not a separate issue, because the one is part of the reason why he didn’t have all of the information. You say correct decision based on the information he had - what you’re missing in my view is that he had a role in why he did NOT have all of the relevant information. Therefore saying he made the right call with the information he had is largely irrelevant.
He didn't though. If his engineer wants to sulk and his team don't want to give him important information, that's their own issue. Andreas could very easily have come on the radio and given him the info like it or not as we see happen at Mercedes with James and Toto and then had a conversation after the race about not being a dick on the radio. His attitude on the radio was stupid and deserves a talking to, but he's not the owner of the team his principles and engineers don't have to be quiet because he asked them to. In fact his engineer shouldn't even have said 'do you want to change tyres' because that's a stupid question based on the current situation where the answer is obviously no, they should have said 'Lando the rain is going to get way worse in the next 2 laps' and then it would have been completely different.
Again, I disagree. But neither of us have all the facts so we are just giving our perspectives, so that’s OK. Anyway, my main point is if Lando is calm, his team remain calm. If Lando sounds like he is panicking, rightly or wrongly it sets a tone for everyone to be more on edge. Which may or may not have contributed to vital information being missed. Look at Mercedes. Hamilton had the same view as Lando, but was much calmer. And in turn, he got a calm response on the radio which in one sentence said “no, you’re coming in, more rain is coming”.
As I’ve said about, this was 80 or 90% on the McLaren team. But Lando should have stayed calm. There’s 100 reasons why he didn’t and they all are fully understandable. But he will learn. And so will McLaren. Proper shitty for Lando, hopefully when he gets that race win it’ll taste all the more sweeter.
I'm not interested in getting too deeply into this again, but Lando takes some blame for getting tunnel vision and telling his team to shut up when they were reiterating for him to box.
It's really unfortunate, and I'm gutted for him, but hopefully it's a lesson he'll have learned by now, that the team has more information than he does about outside influences.
Bingo. It's a system/process error within the McLaren team. If they knew rain was going to get worse, and Lando wasn't interested then they needed to escalate the issue and get someone more senior on the radio, just like other teams do. You don't sit there and watch someone fail and say "well, I told him".
Bottas is stealing a wage at this point.
Somebody with their head screwed on! it makes a change.
Norris was being pressured by a 7 time world champion in the fastest car this weekend, in VERY tricky conditions and aiming for his first ever win.
He was using all his concentration just to stay on the track, then you've got somebody trying to feed information into your ear? did he not say earlier on "no more comms please?"
Norris was doing his job perfectly, but the team messed up by not reading the weather correctly.
They then ignored the fact that other cars had pitted already and were going 8 seconds a lap faster (Bottas). Instead of firming and directly ordering Lando into the pits for his and the teams own good, they pussy footed around it asking if he wanted inters. Clearly he felt he didn't need them and it would be an unneccessary stop. At this point telling him other cars are 8 seconds faster would have been a good idea.
Both Norris and Hamilton said they felt happy in the conditions and didn't want to pit due to only a few laps remaining. You say he should absorb information but they didn't even tell him heavier rains was coming
they said it would stay the same! When a driver is under Duress/pressure you often get these type of radio calls, it's really nothing new.
He isn't even trying. Not 1 defensive block on Verstappen at all, look how easy he made the over take and then compare it to how Russell and Ricciardo defended faster cars.
It's been pretty obvious for a while now he has no interest in helping Hamilton get another championship. He's in it for himself now and that's it.
My wife's gotten into F1 this year, doesn't follow racing or know anything really about it. Even still when Max went past Bottas she said 'shouldnt he be covering the inside' yes...yes he should.
mad isn't it? there's literally only 1 way to overtake on that corner and it's a dive down the inside. All you have to do is move over a slight bit before the braking zone to put them off attempting a late lunge and you're safe. He either didn't expect Verstappen to attempt it (lol) wasn't aware the move was being made, or simply just didn't care and was happy to let him passed.
Considering the other evidence we've seen from him this year in attempting to defend Verstappen, i'd say it's a combination of him not being good enough + not actually caring one bit.
I think I’ve set out my views on this pretty clearly, we can agree to disagree. It’s not that I don’t understand or appreciate where you’re coming from, it’s just that whilst I agree the team is the main culprit here, Lando didn’t help the situation. It’s egging semantics anyway so doesn’t matter.Somebody with their head screwed on! it makes a change.
Norris was being pressured by a 7 time world champion in the fastest car this weekend, in VERY tricky conditions and aiming for his first ever win.
He was using all his concentration just to stay on the track, then you've got somebody trying to feed information into your ear? did he not say earlier on "no more comms please?"
Norris was doing his job perfectly, but the team messed up by not reading the weather correctly.
They then ignored the fact that other cars had pitted already and were going 8 seconds a lap faster (Bottas). Instead of firming and directly ordering Lando into the pits for his and the teams own good, they pussy footed around it asking if he wanted inters. Clearly he felt he didn't need them and it would be an unneccessary stop. At this point telling him other cars are 8 seconds faster would have been a good idea.
Both Norris and Hamilton said they felt happy in the conditions and didn't want to pit due to only a few laps remaining. You say he should absorb information but they didn't even tell him heavier rains was coming
When a driver is under Duress/pressure you often get these type of radio calls, it's really nothing new.
I know what you're saying and in the grand scheme of things he could have handled the stress better - but I can only equate it to trying to keep 8 plates spinning and then somebody asking you what you'd like for lunch.
He did ask them to keep quiet while he concentrated on keeping ahead of Lewis in very tricky conditions. I don't think the engineers really helped. At that moment they need to tell Lando what he wants.
Bono didn't give Lewis any choices, he said "We're boxing for inters this lap" as they knew Bottas was going 8 seconds a lap faster.
The Mclaren boys should have said "Lando, we're losing 8 seconds a lap to others on inters, we HAVE to box this lap" and he'd have done it.
Anyway, we could argue about it for hours and hindsight is a wonderful thing. Things like this in sport is never the obvious thing until it unfolds. I'm sure Mclaren will change something / play it safer in the future.
I actually think if Ricciardo hadn't have won the week before, Lando would have been quite happy with a 2nd place. This put more pressure on him to try and be a winner rather than settle for a top result if that makes sense.
They should just get Russell in now, though the counter argument would be that it might 3-4 races to get up to speed (this isnt the all conquering best ever Mercedes of last season) and that bahrain drive from last season isnt representative of this years car.
Maybe Mercedes should have officially delayed the decision on bottas until the championship was decided. Give him some bait to be a team player. Now he has nothing but bitterness so it's understandable though not professional of him not to bother.
I presume all contracts have been signed, Bottas and Russell are going nowhere for the rest of this season.
Toto will not be happy if Bottas does not try, the constructors championship is dependent on Bottas, he has to try to keep beating Sergio.
No doubt all the contracts are done. It was more of a pipe dream on my behalf.
Looking at the next three races which the press have said are all tracks that favour the RB (Turkey, Dallas and Mexico). If max wins all three races and gets fastest lap for them all and lewis finishes 2nd each time. We'd be going into the final four races with max having a 22 point lead over lewis. Lewis still most likely will need to take an engine penalty at somepoint.
The Mclarens are so quick in an straight line that they will be in the mix at Dallas and Mexico for sure. Theres so many variables at play this season. Personally I think lewis has to win one of the next three races and finish 2nd to max the other two otherwise it might be over (not mathematically but realistically). The unpredictable weather of turkey might be his best chance.
Yeah I agree McLaren stepping up their game could really make a difference to how this season unfolds. Makes it more interesting IMHO. The title race is still wide open.
Lewis has won 4 of the last 6 US races, Bottas 1 so you would think Merc could maybe get a win there, Lewis won Turkey last year in a wet/dry race.
Out of the last 4 Mexico races, Lewis and Max have 2 each.
So on paper you would think Lewis would have a better than even chance of getting a win in 1 maybe 2, but the rules changes s have handed RB the advantage at all 3 tracks.
McLaren joining in is what we all wanted and is mixing it up nicely.
The title race for me is still a 2 horse race, but Norris will take points.
Out of the last 4 Mexico races, Lewis and Max have 2 each.
So on paper you would think Lewis would have a better than even chance of getting a win in 1 maybe 2, but the rules changes s have handed RB the advantage at all 3 tracks.
McLaren joining in is what we all wanted and is mixing it up nicely.
The title race for me is still a 2 horse race, but Norris will take points.
If your interested, its a tad steep for 2 nights
Exactly, that's just a stupid losing mentality.
Ross Brawn predicts lewis will retire with 120 grand prix victories to his name.
Personally I think thats ambitious (an average of 10 wins per season for the next two seasons), but we wont know until we see how competitive next years Mercedes is.
Personally I think thats ambitious (an average of 10 wins per season for the next two seasons), but we wont know until we see how competitive next years Mercedes is.
Literally impossible to say right now isn't it? With the cars changing next year Mercedes could be either completely dominant again, or it might become so open that he only wins another 5-10 races in the next couple.
Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull should still be the front runners though you'd expect; but we could get a surprise out of Alpine/Aston/Mclaren maybe.
Its all but guaranteed the Mercs will be at or near the front of the grid with engine regulations staying pretty much the same until 2025 and the Mercs having the best engine set up currently
Is this right though? I actually thought the Honda engine was probably the better at the moment, particularly because of theweight distribution of how it’s put together.
Monza and Sochi have shown Mercedes is still the best power unit for sure.
Red Bull cars can use less aero to decrease drag which effects top speed a lot more than 20-30HP would.
The engines are certainly closer than ever though, enough to not matter too much like they did a few years ago.
Honda had the upper hand engine wise until Silverstone. I think Mercedes have levelled with the Honda power unit, though at Socchi Honda introduced a new ES (Energy Store). Also the Honda can deploy the stored charge (ERS) for longer down a straight than Mercedes can and have done all season so far.
Theres also the factor of how old an engine is as well. Max and Bottas both have new ICE whereas Lewis is running an older one. The setup of the car for the track and how quickly you can get the tyres into the optimum operating window plays a part. Its simplifying the arguement too much to say Mercedes have a better engine (powertrain) than honda or vice versa.
Theres also the factor of how old an engine is as well. Max and Bottas both have new ICE whereas Lewis is running an older one. The setup of the car for the track and how quickly you can get the tyres into the optimum operating window plays a part. Its simplifying the arguement too much to say Mercedes have a better engine (powertrain) than honda or vice versa.
You do realise F1 is going through the biggest car design change in 40 years? Traditional aero as we have this season will be massively neutered as ground effect aero is coming back into f1. The changes are huge. Make no doubt about it theres a very good chance of the pecking order changing.
Ferrari are very bullish about next years engine and if their radical approach pays off, Mercedes, RB engines and Renault will be playing catchup.
F1's maiden Qatar Grand Prix to take place on November 21 with twilight race at Losail International Circuit; The event also has a 10-year deal from 2023, the year after the country stages the FIFA World Cup
F1 has also announced a 10-year deal with Qatar, which will see it take a permanent place on the calendar from 2023.
This year, the twilight race at Doha's Losail International Circuit is on November 19-21 and is one of seven remaining rounds of a hugely competitive campaign, as Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen battle for the title.
It fills the vacant slot that was left by the Australian GP's cancellation, concluding a triple header after Mexico and Brazil and is the first of three races in the Middle East to finish the season.
The Saudi Arabian and Abu Dhabi GPs are on December 3 and 10.
F1 has also announced a 10-year deal with Qatar, which will see it take a permanent place on the calendar from 2023.
This year, the twilight race at Doha's Losail International Circuit is on November 19-21 and is one of seven remaining rounds of a hugely competitive campaign, as Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen battle for the title.
It fills the vacant slot that was left by the Australian GP's cancellation, concluding a triple header after Mexico and Brazil and is the first of three races in the Middle East to finish the season.
The Saudi Arabian and Abu Dhabi GPs are on December 3 and 10.
Confirmed race for rest of 2021
Formula 1 2021: Confirmed calendar for the rest of the season
| Date | Grand Prix |
|---|---|
| October 10 | Turkish GP |
| October 24 | United States GP |
| November 7 | Mexico City GP |
| November 14 | Sao Paulo GP |
| November 21 | Qatar GP |
| December 5 | Saudi Arabian GP |
| December 12 | Abu Dhabi GP |
Quality stretch for human rights that
mmm not the best is it