Sorry my mistake
. Had got it mixed up. They key point it was an uphill struggle to begin withFellaini
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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. Had got it mixed up. They key point it was an uphill struggle to begin withI simply love the player. Totally unplayable when the ball is played above ground to him.
Brian Clough just turned slightly.
He made a lot of fouls though. It was almost like the ref didn't even think to book him because he was having a stormer.
I remember him elbowing De Gea in the face from the corner early on and getting away with it. I've never seen a player elbow so many people and recieve so few cards for doing it.
Carrick's a great defensive header, particularly from corners. Watch closely and you'll see he heads it out more than anyone else bar Vidic. I think they may have stuck Vidic on Jagielka because he's the best at attacking the ball, but when we saw Fellaini was having such a strong game I reckon they should've just swapped the two of them. It's not about matching Jagielka it's about keeping hold of him, he's very mobile and Vidic is more suited to that than Carrick.Carrick is much more physically likely to match Jagielka in the air rather than fellaini!. The only person from goal kicks / long balls that was dealing with fellaini was vidic, he has the jumping ability and timing to get to the ball first.
Carrick is wank in the air, fellaini actually put him on his ass after completing the headerit was a huge phsyical mismatch and something which cost us the game IMO.
If vidic was marking him from the corner, i dont think he scores.
Since when? He was actually marking Jagielka at the corner Fellaini scored from.
What's Christ being nothing like Toure got to do with anything?
If he played for us he wouldn't have to put himself about so often. We have far more possession in the vast majority of our games than Everton do.
I have to admit that, as great a game as he had, I don't think we would have been quite as effective if the ref had clamped down on the physical nature of his challenges when he had the chance. He absolutely clattered DDG early on and, certainly in the second half, was giving away a lot of very niggly fouls which should have totted up to a yellow in my opinion.
I'm not saying it would have necessarily changed the outcome of the game, as he had an absolute stormer, but there were quite a few occasions where our players were left flattened after an aerial challenge where Everton players seemed to run and jump in to our players.
Still, very impressed by him. He's the kind of player that I could see also playing quite a disruptive defensive role in midfield (isn't that where he started?).
Impossible, we like to play the game on the ground not in the clouds
At no pint did I say he's never played well? So I dont know where your pulling that from, I clearly stated he's still only a good player. What he had in midfield that we didnt last night was height and muscle its as simple as that !!!! Were missing Rio, and Vida is only back and he was being occupied alot of the time by Jelavic who I thought put in a great shift. Both Vida and Carrick didnt know whether to pick him up or try and go to Fellaini.
Fellaini also did the clever thing and played on everyone else bar our best header for about 80% of the game thus killing them constantly when the ball was in the air. Carrick was unlucky on the corner.
I till dont think he'd be perfect for our midfield, if he can keep that kind of performance up for the season then I will shut my trap, still a long long way to go yet though.
The point I was making is that I don't think his game was a one off - he has demonstrated before he can play well against all the top teams.
Like most people last night I had the initail reaction of "sign him up" or "Just what we need" ....yeah, he's a handful alright.
Ok, we need to find an answer to this type of player, but how many times are we going to come up angainst someone like him?
Hoof the ball up to the big man isn't Uniteds first choice, great to have for an option B, if he's happy to come off the bench
What I'm trying to say is, as good as Fellaini is, we don't generally play a style of football that would play to his strengths
So again I say we need to find an answer to playing against him ....OK, that might just mean we have to buy him to prevent that
Ok, we need to find an answer to this type of player, but how many times are we going to come up angainst someone like him?
Hoof the ball up to the big man isn't Uniteds first choice, great to have for an option B, if he's happy to come off the bench
What I'm trying to say is, as good as Fellaini is, we don't generally play a style of football that would play to his strengths
So again I say we need to find an answer to playing against him ....OK, that might just mean we have to buy him to prevent that
One thing about Fellaini though - I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed that he's the dirtiest cnut around in the league?
I mean, I don't think I've EVER seen him win an aerial duel without fouling someone. It's beyond me why refs don't punish him for leading with his elbow, which he does every single time he jumps for a header. It's dangerous and should be punished as such.
Even at the goal, he lead with his elbow into the neck of Carrick, keeping him away from the ball. I mentioned this to my mates who I watched the game with(no United-supporters, all cheering for Everton) and they all seemed to agree after I've pointed out that he should be given a foul against in basically every aerial battle he's in.
And that's before I mention the fact that he, during the second half, sabotaged about 18 counter attacks by charging after someone and tripping them over, without a word of caution from the ref. And the hand in the face of De Gea was a yellow at least - orange that one really. I've seen people sent off for that.
Rant over.
I mean, I don't think I've EVER seen him win an aerial duel without fouling someone. It's beyond me why refs don't punish him for leading with his elbow, which he does every single time he jumps for a header. It's dangerous and should be punished as such.
Even at the goal, he lead with his elbow into the neck of Carrick, keeping him away from the ball. I mentioned this to my mates who I watched the game with(no United-supporters, all cheering for Everton) and they all seemed to agree after I've pointed out that he should be given a foul against in basically every aerial battle he's in.
And that's before I mention the fact that he, during the second half, sabotaged about 18 counter attacks by charging after someone and tripping them over, without a word of caution from the ref. And the hand in the face of De Gea was a yellow at least - orange that one really. I've seen people sent off for that.
Rant over.
That's not the only thing Fellaini is good at though...
I think he committed 3 fouls before the goal and on the third he should have been booked but the ref obviously didnt feel it was the right thing to do yet he booked Nani for a slightly late tackle which was in absolutely no way malicious.
Just wasnt supposed to be our night.
Either way we need to figure something out for playing against this sort of tactic just in case we come up against it again this season. Even if we had Rio on the night would it have made much difference? Really?
Im sure every team in the league would have taken a look at that and ''said ''you can cause them serious problems IF you can get at them in this manner''.
Wheres Bouba Diop when ya need a Wardrobe.
That's right, we like to play the ball pointlessly around the pitch for ten minutes, before then hoofing the ball high into the box from wide areas....!
When we were in possesion, he dropped back into midfield. He was everywhere almost the whole game, in attack Gibson and Neville sat back and let him play as a second forward, but in defense he was right there alongside them.
He wasn't as deep as Neville and Gibson because he was harrying Scholes and occasionally Cleverley all night. Won the ball off them in dangerous areas once or twice as well.
Exactly what we need against a team like Barcelona.
I'm not saying he's the player we need, but he is the kind of player we need, or atleast would be incredibily useful, even if some don't see it that way.
I'm primarily talking about defending here more than attacking, while surely we won't play like Everton (hoofing the ball upfield every chance they got), we don't really need him for that in most situations, what we need a guy to do is handle being on the receiving end of someone like that.
For instance the way Fellaini played last night, nobody apart from Vidič did any "damage" to him, and that's cause Vidič is a fecking beast. Watching Fellaini receive those balls next to Scholes and Cleverley who are fecking midgets compared to him really had me worrying, there was just no stopping it, and they just kept doing the same thing over and over. I can't help but feel that if we had a physical presence in the middle of the pitch the game would've been very different.
Not saying we should buy a big guy just for the sake of buying a big guy, heck it's not like he needs to be a basketball player, ofcourse the first priority is for him to be approved by SAF about the most important aspects of his game, but generaly we are lacking a force in midfield, and it's basicaly the one weakness I see us having right now (not counting the CB situation because: 1) just incredibily unlucky 2) definetely shouldn't happen again to this extent as the season goes on).
I'm primarily talking about defending here more than attacking, while surely we won't play like Everton (hoofing the ball upfield every chance they got), we don't really need him for that in most situations, what we need a guy to do is handle being on the receiving end of someone like that.
For instance the way Fellaini played last night, nobody apart from Vidič did any "damage" to him, and that's cause Vidič is a fecking beast. Watching Fellaini receive those balls next to Scholes and Cleverley who are fecking midgets compared to him really had me worrying, there was just no stopping it, and they just kept doing the same thing over and over. I can't help but feel that if we had a physical presence in the middle of the pitch the game would've been very different.
Not saying we should buy a big guy just for the sake of buying a big guy, heck it's not like he needs to be a basketball player, ofcourse the first priority is for him to be approved by SAF about the most important aspects of his game, but generaly we are lacking a force in midfield, and it's basicaly the one weakness I see us having right now (not counting the CB situation because: 1) just incredibily unlucky 2) definetely shouldn't happen again to this extent as the season goes on).
All he did was drop back and make himself a nuisance like any second striker would do so I'm not sure how that takes away from moses' point. He dominated Liverpool from midfield a couple of years ago and looked a good centre mid around that time but he hasn't looked as good since IMO, and it's pointless judging him on last night's performance because as moses said he played as a forward and in a very direct team so what he offered then is something he wouldn't offer for us. It's all about whether he's a good enough centre mid.
Like some super hero?
So what you're saying is the key to beating Barcelona is be Everton. Noted.
We'd have to be fecking cretins to spend £30m on someone like Fellaini.
Do you not think he could play in our midfield Brwned? I do, whether it be alongside Carrick or instead of him. It isn't just his height or his physical presence, it is his whole attitude. That is what we have sorely lacked without Fletch available isn't it?
I can't remember the last time we won a game from a losing position. I'm sure someone will gleefully point it out, but that used to be our biggest asset, an ability to pinch something from a game we deserved nothing from.
Like Everton last season at OT. EVerton were done. 3-1 down, and 4-2 down with 10 mins left, away at OT. Fellaini refused to accept defeat, he harried and hassled our midfielders, and he dragged his team along with him to find something extra and they got the point in the end.
We just don't have that anymore. Last night's defeat was symptomatic of how little belief we have that we can get something from a game when, the chips are down. We have no-one any longer to take responsibility and instil a bit of added belief that we can turn things around.
Fellaini may not be the man we need, but make no mistake we need someone who will set the tone when things are going against us. Defeats like that where we are outfought and bullied are becoming too familiar considering the talent we have. I hoped for a fightback, but after watching games that have followed a similar pattern, the lack of conviction we got seemed far more likely.
Everton could have defended as well last night and possibly settled for a draw, but Fellaini gave them the extra belief they could win, just as he gave them similar belief last season that a 2 goal deficit away from home was not insurmountable. A leader can prove the difference when you need it most, we need another imo. Far too much silk and not enough steel.
^ The last time we won a game from a losing position was in the community shield vs city last season. Terrible.
Let's just buy him so we don't have to play him. Simples.
I remember this stat from last season and that was one thing City did better than us and in the end their ability to do it won them the title. On the first day of this season we've again lost from a losing position and they've turned around a game and won from one.
It's an issue which needs to be looked at seriously. Also, in a number of those games we didn't even look like turning the score around. Against Everton I don't think I really believed we could do it. Everton certainly didn't have their backs against the walls. City tend to really make teams sweat if they go a goal down and have to make a comeback even if they don't win.
Something to work at big time.
Some would say the same about spending £24m on an injury prone 29yr old. It's all about how it pans out i suppose. I agree Fellaini is very unlikely because of the amount he would cost. But a leader is what we need, we just never look like turning games around where we have been outfought anymore.
It happened throughout our CL campaign last year and at the end of the season, we threw points away and never looked like getting anything whatsoever from the City or Wigan games after initially going behind.
I don't know about anyone else, but from my experience teams than win titles often manage to get something from games when all looks lost.
cheers, but what about even sneaking a point? Was Chelsea away the only point we nicked from a losing position all season?
how can you work on a lack of belief? that is all it can be. there is no doubting our talent, so it becomes simply a question of character, and the performances in adversity suggest we don't have anywhere near enough of it.
I agree that we're lacking that mental strength at the moment to some degree, although I think Van Persie will help us with that. As will Rio coming back. Cleverley and De Gea will develop it too I think, they've got plenty of character. Jones has it he just needs to develop his game more. Can Welbeck, Nani and Kagawa find that within themselves? We'll have to see. Kagawa looked a fighter at least. Fellaini might well help with that but if he's not good enough as a footballer then his character won't make a difference.
We've lost a fair amount of experience and leadership with Brown/O'Shea/VDS/Neville and we're not finding that easy to replace, it's natural. We have to expect more of Rooney in that sense, and I think you're right we do need someone in midfield to do the same. At the moment we only have the calming influence of Scholes/Carrick/Cleverley and the aggressive attacking of Giggs/Anderson but no-one who can just take control of things in the middle and force the play, and I've no doubt Sir Alex is looking for that.
Fellaini's not the answer for me though, and any comparison to Keane is bordering on lunacy.
Because unlike other second strikers, Rooney included, he's got (and showed last night) the ability to tackle and break up play at a level you'd expect from a specialist central midfielder.
More or less at times! There was one instance where Everton had an attack that Fellaini was central to in the box, then United countered and as quickly as we made it down the pitch, so did he, dropping back to cover at left back.
He wasn't anything like a second striker when United had possession. There was no wandering around the channels waiting for his teammates to win the ball back and give it to him, he was the one winning it back and did quite a good job of it.
What the feck is this about needing Fellaini to give us "belief"?
He's a big strong lump who's hard to defend against on his day. Roy Keane he is not.
Anyway, where's all that belief and drive when Everton are getting bitch-slapped by Liverpool, season after season after season?
This thread, honestly...
He's a big strong lump who's hard to defend against on his day. Roy Keane he is not.
Anyway, where's all that belief and drive when Everton are getting bitch-slapped by Liverpool, season after season after season?
This thread, honestly...
It's nothing about 'belief', it's just about seeing a player who embodies exactly what United have been crying out for since Hargo's knees went.
Fair play Brwned, a sensible post as usual. I agree Kagawa did look the business last night under pretty tough conditions. He really worked his bollocks off, i was really impressed with his attitude as well as his ability.
Yes RVP once he gets his feet under the table, he could inspire that bit of extra belief, that we used to have with Ronaldo. A different type of inspiration than a Keane but if it works it will do just as well. hopefully RVP and Kagawa will have a positive effect on Rooney too.
Everton away is not usually his finest game of the season, so not an unexpected showing from him last night, but he is the one we are used to expecting a bit extra from, and maybe the arrival of the new lads may share a bit of that burden of expectation along with him.
Pogue can you not comment without an excessively over dramatising interpretation of a point?
Fellaini was Keane-esque for Everton. As in he inspires them to better performances. the Liverpool statement is unfair as Everton are very rarely able to put out the team they would like to, due to the size of their squad.
Liverpool in comparison have enjoyed far bigger squads, with far more quality players and are therefore not as weakened by a few injuries.
The point was we need a leader. The CShield last year was the last time we won from a losing position. We suffered 11 defeats last season, and once behind we very rarely looked like preventing any of them. We managed only 1 point from a losing position all season.
That shows a lack of character and a lack of belief that we used to have in abundance and typified our mentality. i already stated Fellaini may not be the answer, but someone who provides a bit of steel, desire and inspiration in the middle certainly is.
That was where the Keane implication came from, as he was our best example of someone inspiring our team to get something from games when the chips were down.
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