I don't know why people keep saying this thread is a car crash, disaster, etc. Yes there have been some very dodgy posts, but I also think there has been a lot of insight, and interesting takes. If more dialogue like this took place in real life, maybe we wouldn't be witnessing the social/political goat rodeo that is currently playing out all over the world.This thread..I just..
Gay footballers | Czech Republic international Jakub Jankto comes out as gay
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
To be fair, in a thread where there are so many outlandish posts, it isn't always easy to tell.
Ah, no that too of course, but some of the posts really are gems of ignorance.
I made my serious point clear in one of the first pages of the thread, now I'm just reading along for shites and giggles.
There's always a lot of curious language employed in these threads:
'I don't mind the gays...as long as they're not ramming it down my throat!'
And so on.
'I don't mind the gays...as long as they're not ramming it down my throat!'
And so on.
I shouldn't, but
Footballers are already subject to nasty abuse from oppo fans, almost anything seems to be fair game. Hearing some of the stuff routinely shouted from the stands, I'm not sure coming out as gay would make things any worse for a player. Granted I'm not gay, but would being called a "bender" or something be any worse than being told your mum is a prossie?
Now, a player's OWN fans turning on them... that would be very different. I think it's very unlikely, in England at least. If he performs on the pitch, I can actually imagine some funny chants of support coming from fans.
Now, a player's OWN fans turning on them... that would be very different. I think it's very unlikely, in England at least. If he performs on the pitch, I can actually imagine some funny chants of support coming from fans.
'If a bloke wants to stick it right up another bloke - right up there! - I'm fine with it.'
I've reported this post. This is absolutely disgraceful.
Are there many openly gay people in sports in general? Cant think of any
A good portion of the USA's World Cup winning side were LGBT. Nicola Adams is bisexual.
Oh, and all of these people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT_sportspeople
Sue Bird and Diana Taurasi both are, two of the best female basketballers of all time.
Women? Plenty. Navratilova, Billy Jean King, Novotna, Rapinoe, Mauresmo, Semenya ...
Men? Not so much.
Not a lot of big names anyway. In certain sports more than others.
personal insults are surely more hurtful than random arbitrary one-liners like "yer mums a prossie"
In big, bold letters for those who don't get it. "Coming out" isn't for us non-LGBT folk and the sooner we get that in our heads the easier it'll be for everyone to get along.
From The Good Men Project:
The reason is that it is very hard to love yourself fully when you hide. And it’s very hard to love others when you don’t love yourself. Therefore, the closet is lonely. No one loves you there.
Authenticity is the foundation of all closeness. If we want better relationships we must keep learning how to be more authentic.
And all of us want better relationships.
There's a reason why they call the marches and celebrations “Pride.” It is the opposite of shame. Shame contributes to what keeps us feeling separate from others and ourselves.
Coming out does take bravery. But without bravery we'd still be huddling in windowless bars, running from police, and marrying people we weren’t attracted to.
From The Good Men Project:
The reason is that it is very hard to love yourself fully when you hide. And it’s very hard to love others when you don’t love yourself. Therefore, the closet is lonely. No one loves you there.
Authenticity is the foundation of all closeness. If we want better relationships we must keep learning how to be more authentic.
And all of us want better relationships.
There's a reason why they call the marches and celebrations “Pride.” It is the opposite of shame. Shame contributes to what keeps us feeling separate from others and ourselves.
Coming out does take bravery. But without bravery we'd still be huddling in windowless bars, running from police, and marrying people we weren’t attracted to.
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I'm a season ticket holder and wouldn't dream of giving a footballer abuse because of what he does with his frank & beans on a Saturday night, at best I could probably be accused of Lingardaphobia, but that's a whole different thread!
Defiance in the face of societal oppression is an admirable thing.
Who's ramming anything down your throat?
How about opponents though?
It's tennis, but i remember a dude like Kyrgios telling Wawrinka in the middle of a match another player banged his girlfriend. Obviously in an attempt to destabilize him. Now imagine what he would have said if he was gay. Imagine what Materazzi would have said to Zidane.
If i were a gay footballer, cyclist or tennisplayer there's no way in hell i would come out.
It took nine posts
Lot of throat ramming going on here.
I've read your posts. You're criticising a poster for changing their mind as though it is better to cling on to a misguided opinion than moderating it when you're confronted with evidence to the contrary or alternative viewpoints. That's a pretty strange position to take imo because updating your opinion when you get new information actually tends to be a sign of high intelligence (which tends to be a trait of highly successful people like you!). Hence me wondering what it would take to change your opinion on this topic. You've said:
Plenty of people in this thread, including a few LGBT folks that have actually lived this, have explained that expressing sexuality can be an incredibly important part of someone's identity, that a professional (male) footballer coming out could be incredibly empowering for young LGBT people and that an "announcement" does not need to take the form of a press conference but can be as simple as a footballer appearing in public with their partner (just as plenty of straight footballers do). There is also an endless amount of information on the internet about the importance of coming out. Not having the intellectual humility or empathy to reconsider your opinions in light of that isn't something to be proud of.
Wait, what is this even, no one is ramming anything down your throat — we don't exist in a gay authoritarian regime...but a world where heterosexuality is the default position and social fabrics are woven around that standard. A lot of posters in this thread seem to be operating with the mindset that society at large has always been remarkably accepting of homosexuality, and they're being needlessly inconvenienced by extremely freaking gays who should get over themselves and go do their gay thing in the dark.
Most of them were “doing their own thing”, but normal-people and governments and repressive regimes felt the need to seek them out, brutalize or kill them, relentlessly shame and disown them and associate them with negative stereotypes, force-convert them with experimental non-scientific therapies, and systematically oppress/isolate their minority group over several centuries by treating them like rank criminals. Homosexuality is still not uniformly decriminalized everywhere, and even in progressive societies it can carry a day-to-day burden that many heterosexual people won't be able to empathize with — because they are the majority and part of the group that doesn't have to constantly make micro-adjustments and doesn't have to withstand the scrutiny a lot of homosexual people face on a regular basis.
There's still an incalculable amount of work to do in terms of fully normalizing homosexuality in a fairly homogeneous society (sexual orientation wise) and dismantling archetypes (especially in the public eye), let alone righting the atrocious wrongs that were committed to limit the historical baggage...so maybe pipe down?
I understand where you're going, but imagine this:
Did you ever celebrated in the streets your club with scarfs or shirts or anything?
You're announcing to everyone you're a fan of (I assume) Man Utd, and forcing everyone to see you doing that instead of "doing your own thing".
Maybe you don't do this but a lot of people do celebrate like this.
On the other hand there is another view:
Why can't people say what they are or what they like?
As long as it's not hate speech or hurting someone everyone is free to parade for whatever they want.
It always makes me laugh when I hear a certain player speak in interviews. He is so camp I'm always shocked how he hasn't already come out!
Who's that then?
I couldn't possibly cast aspersions like that in a football forum.
But I also stated:
"Just live your life, and let others live theirs how they see fit; as long as it's legal (not just referring to this subject, obviously, as I know there is a contention in some countries regarding this, which shouldn't be the case), and not harming anybody else."
If I am perfectly honest, I don't have much of an opinion on it, and the only reason I posted was due to people getting banned, and potentially banned for their personal views, and thus quickly changing their stance.
On the subject in question, I would say the following:
Live and let live I say. This journey is not a reheasal. That's certainly the way I live; so I expect others to be able to live in a similar unrestricted way.
If I was a gay man/woman, I wouldn't give a flying feck what another human being on this planet thought about me. I wouldn't need 'accepting', I would just do what I wanted. Now, I understand that not everyone is the same as me, and may have their own reasons for any actions they may take, but I am also entitled to my opinions, the same as the next man/woman - the same as other posters.
but you're not gay, so you can't pretend to know what it feels like to have grown up gay. and in particular, you're not a gay footballer and therefore not in the position to suddenly become the 'gay football posterboy'.
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Did you ever consider that your perspective might be different if you were gay and grew up with the various challenges that society presented you because of it?
Btw asking why gay people “have to announce it” does not really fit with the ‘live and let live’ mantra does it?
Quality control
On the first question, personally? I don't think I would have a different perspective; in fact I know I wouldn't, but that's just me. I generally know that I would never have those fears no matter what circumstances I found myself in, or anything regarding my sexual orientation. But, I do accept why many might. We are all different, and we are all alone with our thoughts when we switch the light out at night.
On the second question, you have kind of answered your own question there, because if we literally had a society of 'live and let live' attitudes down the ages, there would be no need to announce anything. The announcement 'mentality' comes by way of built up oppression, of sorts, and the fear of being rejected by society as a whole. That is just a sad fact of life, and the society we do live in.
But, what I am saying, is that if you have spent a large portion of your life in fear of something that you could simply remove, by changing your own attitude on any subject/people, then it would be highly unfortunate that such 'allowances' could result in reaching the end of your days with major regrets of affording other people to control your feelings, and thus your life.
No way on this earth would I personally allow that kind of control over my mental state to be handed over to other people. Again, that's just me. Other people's thoughts on the matter, and how they could/would control it, will be different.
Who remembers Justin Fashanu?
A sad story.
If you Google him, there are a few sad stories for Justin.
A sad story.
If you Google him, there are a few sad stories for Justin.
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How could you possibly know this?
Those stupid crying gays who've felt forced to live in silent shame most of their lives should pull their finger out, ooer.
Of course you are spot on, maybe I didn't articulate well enough or more likely went on a tangent but what I meant was that I think there is often a feeling that an announcement is necessary when I don't think they should be.
A few said they dont see homophobia on the streets and nobody cares anymore.
Just gonna leave this here. Not relevant to football but certainly relevant to the discussion.
Just gonna leave this here. Not relevant to football but certainly relevant to the discussion.
There is a list made? Dear me, why?
"How dare they let generations of abuse and discrimination bother them when it continues the utter snowflakes" - Mr H Eterosexual
Don't you know that homophobia shouldn't be on the streets, it should be in the closet.