German football is turd

GameOn

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What a friggin' weird league; another former Top3 club facing relegation (this time around, Schalke 04).
Schalke hasn't been a "Top 3 side" for quite a while now.

Their second place finish a few years ago was a massive fluke/outlier.

The new "Big 3" are Bayern, Dortmund and Leipzig.
 

Denis' cuff

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yes.. like me... for over 50 year. but you aren't interested in facts.. just you're own views. but congrats on being the first idiot I've ever blocked on social media
very much doubt I’m the first you’ve blocked because I’ve showed you the error of your ways ... twice. I’m sure others have had far more success than that.

1) the French, German and Spanish leagues are a walk in the park every year, compared to the PL
2) United are actually in a position to challenge for the title

you’re a bit of a tit really.
 

C'mon FC

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very much doubt I’m the first you’ve blocked because I’ve showed you the error of your ways ... twice. I’m sure others have had far more success than that.

1) the French, German and Spanish leagues are a walk in the park every year, compared to the PL
2) United are actually in a position to challenge for the title

you’re a bit of a tit really.
Is that just a feeling or do you have actually any evidence for your case?
 

GameOn

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Is that just a feeling or do you have actually any evidence for your case?
Shhhhh ... never start an argument with someone, who really believes that the PL is head and shoulders above all other leagues, while not having a single argument on his side.
 

C'mon FC

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Shhhhh ... never start an argument with someone, who really believes that the PL is head and shoulders above all other leagues, while not having a single argument on his side.
Actually if he had left out the Spanish league I'd say it's going to be in the right direction but unfortunately (for him) LaLiga has been the most successful international league of the last decade.
 

Cheimoon

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I have a confession to make. A few years ago @Brwned suggested that a lot of the PL's popularity is due to a deliberate marketing campaign where it is promoted as uniquely difficult and challenging and good compared to other leagues. I laughed. Hard. What nonsense.

A few years and a few hundreds of pointless threads like this later... Yeah he was right.
To me, the truly remarkable thing is that it has developed in a way that is considered good to have the bottom half of the league consist of teams like Burnley that try to avoid relegation by shutting up shop every match, grinding out every minute from the get-go (realistic! well set-up!) - and bad to have a gung-ho team like Leeds that has the same objective but approaches it the other way round.(naive! defence full of gaps!). And then that translates to the BL, which is a crap league because the Burnley attitude isn't there (or very little of it). As a fan of football, I don't want to see Burnleys, I want to see Leeds - but yet the EPL has this non-stop action image and the BL is, again, crap.

Not that the EPL is always boring and the BL always entertaining, but there's a quite a gap between realities and what people claim to be happening, and that marketing campaign sounds like a good culprit.
 

adexkola

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To me, the truly remarkable thing is that it has developed in a way that is considered good to have the bottom half of the league consist of teams like Burnley that try to avoid relegation by shutting up shop every match, grinding out every minute from the get-go (realistic! well set-up!) - and bad to have a gung-ho team like Leeds that has the same objective but approaches it the other way round.(naive! defence full of gaps!). And then that translates to the BL, which is a crap league because the Burnley attitude isn't there (or very little of it). As a fan of football, I don't want to see Burnleys, I want to see Leeds - but yet the EPL has this non-stop action image and the BL is, again, crap.

Not that the EPL is always boring and the BL always entertaining, but there's a quite a gap between realities and what people claim to be happening, and that marketing campaign sounds like a good culprit.
Spot on, and ditto for La Liga.
 

Rasendori

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Stuttgart are one of my favourite teams to right watch now. Certainly, the top four. The game today against Augsburg was no exception.

I felt Sosa was phenomenal. For me, the standout in the first half especially as Stuttgart were constantly posing a threat on their left hand side. Klimowicz was unlucky not to get to get on the scoresheet. His all round game was top notch, with the most notable example him being exceedingly close to scoring a goal from pure individual brilliance around the 35th minute. The execution from Kempf in the build up to Wamangituka's goal was utterly brilliant. Despite scoring in that first half, I thought Wamangituka was relatively quiet. Augsburg disconcerted with the consummate ease at which Stuttgart (namely González and Sosa) were exploiting the high line tried to drop off to eliminate that space. An attempt in vain, as Castro was now able to dominate proceedings in the mid block. And even in the closing stages of the first half, González once again found space behind the back line. The away side were so threatening on the counter with their direct probing passes from deep. Saying that though, Augsburg were able to get free kicks in dangerous positions, and would've surely been something they'd hope they could capalize on heading inside for the half time break.

29 seconds was all it took for Augsburg to score in the second half. And yet, the visitors almost scored 40 seconds later. A thoroughly entertaining spectacle.
Wamangituka was much more involved in the second half, constantly running through the channels. Think he'll be slightly disappointed he didn't make the most of Mangala putting him through on goal, as he had a fantastic opportunity to add either another goal to his belt, or to make an assist. He tried to go for the latter, but didn't release the ball fast enough. Still, he was selfless, and threatening throughout the second half, constantly assessing his options instead of running through blind alleys. Apart from two occasions where Augsburg threatened (1. the half time dismissal of Rani Khedira thereby allowing Augsburg to drop the three at the back system almost led to an equalizer where the home side had numbers in the box. 2. Anton miscalculated the trajectory of a hopeful pass, and almost cost his side a goal.) Felt Stuttgart managed the game quite well. By conceding in just 29 seconds, there was a legitimate hope that Augsburg could get an equalizer. And that feelings wasn't lost on the players who were fired up. In the next 20 mins or so, the visitors had the bulk of possession. In contrast, to having 46% possession by the half time whistle. After that 20 min period, the home side had a 2-3 min spell where they were on top. Building momentum, and suddenly ... Mangala has the ball, harassed by the opposition and calmly evades the press which gives confidence to his teammates. Shortly afterwards, González slows the game down, and the ball progresses to Anton who confidently strides forward and gets fouled resulting in a second yellow. With the one man advantage, the away side had more than enough opportunities to score more than they did, but still a top achievement.

The next step is to improve their home form. Stuttgart have scored the most away goals with 21 goals. To put that into perspective:
Stuttgart21 Away goals
Bayern Mun18 Away goals
Bayer Lev16 Away goals
B. Gladbach15 Away goals
Dortmund15 Away goals

Stuttgart are a side that have been relegated twice in the past four years. And were playing in the second division last year.

So far, they managed to draw with Leverkusen, beat Dortmund, and were brave against Bayern M.

The loss against RB Leipzig ( a couple days ago) was the first time they'd lost two domestic games consecutively. I did feel they deserved to lose with only Wamangituka providing the spark IMO. Others may disagree.

In any case, the exuberance of the side makes them a really enjoyable side to watch. Perhaps the most notable thing is the frequency in which they are having shots on goal.

González's ball retention in tight spaces. The exuberance of Wamangituka. Sosa's involvement in facilitating play on the left flank. The midfield conduit of Endo and Mangala. There's alot to like about this side. The dogged work of Klimowicz. The fleet footed Coulibaly at their disposal.

I retrospectively watched their 6-2 defeat to Hamburger in the second division, and I was impressed that they continued to commit players forward, in spite of the large deficit. So, it didn't come to a shock to me that they beat Hamburger within a week of that thrashing.
 

ForEverEleven

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The guy is constantly making excuses for his horrible finishing, pandering to a cliche to make journalists happy. As if Bundesliga defenders are all midgets or something, what is he on about.
 

Lay

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In fairness it does seem like he’s going down the cliche route. Are defenders in Germany slow midgets with the strength of a 5 year old?
 

B. Munich

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If true why the Premier League only had 4 CL winners in the last 20 years?
Just being 190+cm tall and physically brutal doesn't make you a good footballer.
Seems English clubs are obsessed with physical players. There is no other explanation why several Premier Clubs are after Niklas Süle, who has a poor and frustrating season.
 

horsechoker

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Anyone seen that Russian video where the kid is winning at chess and they decide to bring out a former champion from the USSR to take him on?
 

ayushreddevil9

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Bundesliga Reputation Protection Alliance members to come out in masses in 3..2..1..
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crossy1686

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If true why the Premier League only had 4 CL winners in the last 20 years?
Just being 190+cm tall and physically brutal doesn't make you a good footballer.
Seems English clubs are obsessed with physical players. There is no other explanation why several Premier Clubs are after Niklas Süle, who has a poor and frustrating season.
Because the two best players to ever grace the game have played in Spain and Bayern keep taking all the best German players. If United signed every good English player on a free transfer every summer we'd have as many CL's as Madrid.

And I find it funny how your pinnacle is the CL. It's almost like you know your 80 league titles are worthless.
 

Acrobat7

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Because the two best players to ever grace the game have played in Spain and Bayern keep taking all the best German players. If United signed every good English player on a free transfer every summer we'd have as many CL's as Madrid.

And I find it funny how your pinnacle is the CL. It's almost like you know your 80 league titles are worthless.
How many good German players has Bayern actually signed on a free? Goretzka and..?
 

Mr.Ridiculous__

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Bundesliga teams have some of the most naive defending I have ever seen from a top league. Acres of space, defenders that don't close down players, it's very very poor. This is just based on what I see from the league. They need better managers and things will climb soon, because there is talent there.
 

DoomSlayer

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They probably make them in the same factory. It's hilarious how defensive they all get, as if this isn't a forum about an English team from the English Premier League. :lol:
 

Lay

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Haha what? Are you kidding? Lewandowski, Goretzka, Gotze, Hummels, Neuer, Upamencano, that reserve goalkeeper from Shalke also, and that's just in the last couple of years.
In fairness, he said German players on a free
 

Brightonian

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Because the two best players to ever grace the game have played in Spain and Bayern keep taking all the best German players. If United signed every good English player on a free transfer every summer we'd have as many CL's as Madrid.

And I find it funny how your pinnacle is the CL. It's almost like you know your 80 league titles are worthless.
Plus the PL is a relentless brutal dogfight where every relegation candidate knows how to grind out an ugly draw and now they're all so rich they can all afford talent too so there's always a chance while you're working your arse off trying to break down their low block some Portuguese international scores a worldie against you...

And then three days later you have to show up for a European tie against Bayern, who spent their weekend relaxing while they fielded the second string they've built entirely out of Dortmund's star players over the years (and who comfortably beat DSC Arminia Bielefeld or some other team who sound like they've been procedurally generated by a computer.)

And we don't get a winter break.
 

Chairman Steve

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I think the top third of the Bundesliga clubs are all pretty decent sides. It’s just that Bayern are at the moment ridiculously good like City are in the Premier League, despite the PL teams between 2nd-7th are pretty good teams... but football is cyclical in nature and Bayern maintaining those standards as the years go by will be hard, so there will be a downturn at some point by the law of averages.

TV money in Germany isnt as lucrative as it is in the Premier League, which is pretty much where every league is playing catchup too. Dortmund are supposedly at risk of having to sell Sancho or even Haaland if they don’t make Champions League. That really doesn’t happen in the Premier League as you don’t see Spurs needing to sell Kane or Son to make ends meet, or Arsenal with Aubameyang etc. Those days have gone since like 2010 or so when it became mental money.

If you gave the TV money you get in Premier League to Bundesliga teams, it’d be probably more likely than most teams will tell Bayern to feck off if they came after their best players.
 
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JPRouve

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Haha what? Are you kidding? Lewandowski, Goretzka, Gotze, Hummels, Neuer, Upamencano, that reserve goalkeeper from Shalke also, and that's just in the last couple of years.
Hummels, Neuer, Upamecano and Gotze weren't free.
 

HerrLeinad

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The Bundesliga has in average the tallest players in all top5 leagues (6 of the 8 tallest teams in the Top5 leagues are from the BL):

Let me use this graphic:
https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr50/en/img/fig06.svg

source: Historical analysis of compositional strategies for squads (2010s)

It really feels like all of this has become some sort of self-perpetuating myth (and players obviously pick up on it).


Plus the PL is a relentless brutal dogfight where every relegation candidate knows how to grind out an ugly draw and now they're all so rich they can all afford talent too so there's always a chance while you're working your arse off trying to break down their low block some Portuguese international scores a worldie against you...
Why do you think that's unique to the EPL? There is data on it and what you say is simply not true, let me use some actual research (it's from 2018 but still relevant):
average gap between shots from within the opponents’ box, by league:
https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr28/en/images/fig06en.svg?crc=456241104

Bigger gap = less competitive teams (and the EPL leads here) or to quote the report:

The most competitive teams not only shoot more often than lesser performing teams, but also are capable of shooting from a closer range. The difference in the number of shots from within the opponents’ box is thus a particularly relevant indicator when measuring the power balance between teams.
source: CIES Football Observatory Monthly Report n°28 - October 2017 -Performance and playing styles in 35 European football leagues

You could also take another report and take a look at this:
https://football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/mr/mr40/en/images/fig09.svg?crc=4208677251

Shows the average goal difference per game, by competition and the BL and EPL are pretty much exactly equal.

source: Competitive balance: a spatio-temporal comparison

And then three days later you have to show up for a European tie against Bayern, who spent their weekend relaxing while they fielded the second string they've built entirely out of Dortmund's star players over the years (and who comfortably beat DSC Arminia Bielefeld or some other team who sound like they've been procedurally generated by a computer.)

And we don't get a winter break.
I mean you play more games but also earn more money through it and BL teams also need to consider that they do have less games which means smaller squads. I could once again drop more data on you, there were for example seasons when Bayern was amongst the teams in europe who had the most minutes played by their top11.
It's also funny that you chose to pick Bielefeld of all teams who we only managed to draw with a 3:3 at home just two weeks ago despite only resting Kimmich and Pavard after having played the CWC. You might also want to ask Dortmund how easy it is to drop points vs the teams from the buttom of the BL. ;)
Besides that do you know when we massively rotated the last time, more than in any other game this season? It was in the CL group away game againt that little known team Atletico Madrid who still needed the points from that game and yet we managed to get a 1:1 (despite playing someone like 17 years old Mbi as LB who still hasn't managed to get a single minute in the BL so far).
The only time we can really "relax" or start to mass rotate is if we have secured the league early which obviously did happen in recent years but that isn't in any way different to the EPL. Liverpool and City also had their titles early in the bag in recent years (and City will have that advantage this season too) so let's not pretend that there aren't many dead rubbers for english teams towards the end. I'm not even sure it's always an advantage, it certainly hurt us in the 13/14 season under Guardiola when we dominated for 2/3s of the season but then had too many games that didn't matter anymore which affected our overall ability to perform in the CL.
 
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kaiser1

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*Next to nothing in regards transfer fees.

Better?
At the time of their purchase, can you name any EPL defender more expensive than Hummels
Or any EPL keeper more expensive than Neuer

Bayern paid more for Gotze than Chelsea paid for Hazard

By 2013, how many Man utd signings were more than what Bayern paid for Gotze
 

crossy1686

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At the time of their purchase, can you name any EPL defender more expensive than Hummels
Or any EPL keeper more expensive than Neuer

Bayern paid more for Gotze than Chelsea paid for Hazard

By 2013, how many Man utd signings were more than what Bayern paid for Gotze
I thought Gotze was on a free but I realise now I was actually remembering him going back to Dortmund on a free after leaving Bayern. €37m was a lot at the time but I'm pretty sure Ozil joined Arsenal not long after and broke that German player transfer record.
 

JPRouve

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I thought Gotze was on a free but I realise now I was actually remembering him going back to Dortmund on a free after leaving Bayern. €37m was a lot at the time but I'm pretty sure Ozil joined Arsenal not long after and broke that German player transfer record.
He didn't go back to Dortmund on a free transfer. :angel:
 

romufc

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If true why the Premier League only had 4 CL winners in the last 20 years?
Just being 190+cm tall and physically brutal doesn't make you a good footballer.
Seems English clubs are obsessed with physical players. There is no other explanation why several Premier Clubs are after Niklas Süle, who has a poor and frustrating season.
Obviously the CL is different, knock out competitions are not the same as a league, I am sure you are aware of that, or you chose to ignore it because the German league is so noncompetitive you don't care about it.

Which clubs are after Sule? None from United, Chelsea, Liverpool, City, Leicester want him.

Its clear to see the defending from Bundesliga clubs is quite poor, Leipzig who have the best defensive record, look like they do not know how to defend when they face English clubs. United and Liverpool mocked their defence.
 

B. Munich

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Because the two best players to ever grace the game have played in Spain and Bayern keep taking all the best German players. If United signed every good English player on a free transfer every summer we'd have as many CL's as Madrid.

And I find it funny how your pinnacle is the CL. It's almost like you know your 80 league titles are worthless.

It should rather read....if United had a halfway capable management they would have spend the roughly 1 billion Euro over the last 8 years more wisely, hired coaches that actually suit the strength of your players and had developed a clear ay to play football. Then I am sure Man United would have a few trophies more.

The CL is the only competition where German teams face English teams. Or do you want to extend this to the national teams? Doesn't look that good for you guys there either. :angel:
 

B. Munich

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Haha what? Are you kidding? Lewandowski, Goretzka, Gotze, Hummels, Neuer, Upamencano, that reserve goalkeeper from Shalke also, and that's just in the last couple of years.
Common you can do better than this!
In the same time your club signed Maguire, AWB, Shaw, Mata, Matic, Schneiderlein, Lukaku and Sanchez from other Premier League clubs.
That some players were overpriced and didn't perform, again it's your mediocre management team to blame for.
 

Flexdegea

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Incoming salty German fans with inferiority complexes to tell fans on a English club forum how it's all lies and their game actually superior
 

Rampant Red Rodriguez

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German league is shit and uncompetitive as Bayern suck up the best of the German players with help from the selling club. End of story.

There's many advantages of the league for being less competitive and less physically demanding than the EPL.

The league has a 1 month break in winter but the EPL is still playing.. And they have 1 less Cup competition to play :-). The smaller clubs develop the players and then go to Bayern to improve more and win things.

Take Bayern out of the league and it probably collapses