[Pickle85]

As I said, without the penalties England hardly looked like scoring and they were not the better team. People have convinced themselves England were the better team because they had more possession and more xG. Go check the heat maps and see where that possession was and remove penalties from the xG to get the real picture of how the game went. The point I made is valid if you're trying to suggest England were the better team.

But, unless I'm wrong, the penalties were an actual part of how the game went. Or was there some sort of mass hallucination and they actually never happened? What you're essentially asking people to do is to remove the clearest two English chances from the equation to give a 'real' sense of the game. For me, I'd rather get a real sense of the game by watching how the game, you know, ACTUALLY went. Which includes the penalties which, I'm fairly sure, when scored still count as one whole goal.

England had more possession, more shots, more shots on target, more shots off target, more passes, more passes completed, and fewer saves. You're clearly seeing what you want to see.

 

[crossy1686]

But, unless I'm wrong, the penalties were an actual part of how the game went. Or was there some sort of mass hallucination and they actually never happened? What you're essentially asking people to do is to remove the clearest two English chances from the equation to give a 'real' sense of the game. For me, I'd rather get a real sense of the game by watching how the game, you know, ACTUALLY went. Which includes the penalties which, I'm fairly sure, when scored still count as one whole goal.

England had more possession, more shots, more shots on target, more shots off target, more passes, more passes completed, and fewer saves. You're clearly seeing what you want to see.

Okay, I concede. England were the better team because they had two penalties, a bunch of possession in their own half and some shots directly at Loris.

A snippet from Scandinavia's biggest news outlet:

I en mycket jämn tillställning var Frankrike hela tiden i förarsätet. - In a very even event, France was always in the driver's seat.

https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbla...t-england-ur-fotbolls-vm-harry-kane-syndabock

Seem's it's not just me who sees what I want to see, which is exactly what you're doing. Anyway, this is derailing the thread, Maguire not England.

 

[Pickle85]

Okay, I concede. England were the better team because they had two penalties, a bunch of possession in their own half and some shots directly at Loris.

A snippet from Scandinavia's biggest news outlet:

I en mycket jämn tillställning var Frankrike hela tiden i förarsätet. - In a very even event, France was always in the driver's seat.

https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbla...t-england-ur-fotbolls-vm-harry-kane-syndabock

Seem's it's not just me who sees what I want to see, which is exactly what you're doing. Anyway, this is derailing the thread, Maguire not England.

No, it's me that should concede, given that some random Scandi paper says that France were in control in what was a very even contest. That proves it.

Almost all of the reports I've seen of the game noted how close it was, that England were in the ascendancy at the end of the game and had been in control for large parts of it. They also said (totally correctly) that the decisive factor was the French 'killer instinct'. Even Giroud said "Sometimes, the winner is not the best team but the team that deals with all the elements of the game the most and has that killer instinct." I don't disagree with anyone that says it's a game that could have gone either way, but I do disagree that there's no argument to make that England shaded it and I think that saying 'well take the penalties out of the game for a real picture of it' is ridiculous.

 

[Mmm-Qatarian]

As I said, without the penalties England hardly looked like scoring and they were not the better team. People have convinced themselves England were the better team because they had more possession and more xG. Go check the heat maps and see where that possession was and remove penalties from the xG to get the real picture of how the game went. The point I made is valid if you're trying to suggest England were the better team.

Your argument falls apart because you're not providing any justification for why we should be considering England's performance "without the penalties".

As @Pickle85 points out, if you're going to make the case that England's attacking play should be considered disregarding their two biggest chances then you should say why you're doing that. I understand that there are valid reasons to report penalties separately to open play chances but that isn't enough to just disregard them altogether.

I think disregarding the penalties in the case of England-France is honestly entirely unjustified because both penalties came about as a result of issues France had in dealing with our attackers that weren't just isolated incidents with the penalties. Throughout the match, French players were guilty of over-committing to challenges because the directness of England's attackers was causing them problems. That's not to say there's nothing France could've done to avoid giving the penalties away, but the fact that the penalties resulted from strengths of England's attacking strategy as opposed to just fortunate handballs from potshots, for example, means it's pretty reductive to consider the state of the game "without the penalties".

Anyway, this is all rather getting away from the subject of the thread. I'll end the post by saying something relevant to Maguire: he had a good tournament but it was fairly ridiculous that he was included in anybody's "team of the tournament".

 

[RedRonaldo]

Best CB in the Euro last year, best CB in the WC again this year. Harry Maguire.

 

[Marcelinho87]

Best CB in the Euro last year, best CB in the WC again this year. Harry Maguire.

Easy done when the whole team is built as a defensive unit.

 

[Ayoba]

What happened?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Best CB in the Euro last year, best CB in the WC again this year. Harry Maguire.

If you add the qualifier ‘for England’, you’d be correct. Otherwise, no. Gvardiol was the best CB in the WC and being made a fool of by the GOAT when the match was already decided doesn't change that.

 

[Pickle85]

Your argument falls apart because you're not providing any justification for why we should be considering England's performance "without the penalties".

As @Pickle85 points out, if you're going to make the case that England's attacking play should be considered disregarding their two biggest chances then you should say why you're doing that. I understand that there are valid reasons to report penalties separately to open play chances but that isn't enough to just disregard them altogether.

I think disregarding the penalties in the case of England-France is honestly entirely unjustified because both penalties came about as a result of issues France had in dealing with our attackers that weren't just isolated incidents with the penalties. Throughout the match, French players were guilty of over-committing to challenges because the directness of England's attackers was causing them problems. That's not to say there's nothing France could've done to avoid giving the penalties away, but the fact that the penalties resulted from strengths of England's attacking strategy as opposed to just fortunate handballs from potshots, for example, means it's pretty reductive to consider the state of the game "without the penalties".

Anyway, this is all rather getting away from the subject of the thread. I'll end the post by saying something relevant to Maguire: he had a good tournament but it was fairly ridiculous that he was included in anybody's "team of the tournament".

That second paragraph outlines my thinking better than just could! Agree with it all.

 

[dinostar77]

Best CB in the Euro last year, best CB in the WC again this year. Harry Maguire.

Were you watching a different tournament to everyone else or just england matches?

Josko Gvardiol (Croatia) and Romain Saiss (Morocco) were the two outstanding CBs of the tournament.

Again our management ignoring RR recommendations (Gvardiol was his absolute must buy recommendation) has come to bite us in the ass.

 

[NoPace]

I know we're unlikely to have a Casemiro level passer at RCB even if we sell Maguire, but seeing him there made me want Maguire sold on the back of a good World Cup in January and a new guy brought in. I don't really get the feeling the other players on the team would be sad to see him go. The team's leadership core is now probably Lisando-Varane-Casemiro-Eriksen-Bruno.

 

[Cloud7]

Surely Saiss and Gvardiol were better than him? I also thought Romero was quite good throughout the tournament. Maguire looked good for England, no doubt, but he usually does anyway and that never translates to club level, so it's neither here nor there how he performed with England as it pertains to United.

In general I think it's a bit ridiculous to have any player that doesn't progress to at least the semi finals in any sort of team of the tournament, unless they do something outrageous like top score before that point or something along those lines.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[dinostar77]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Another random website. Its not the official fifa team of the tournament.

 

[Sauxees Moi Hui]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

We need to retweet this at every club we can and see if anyone tweets back with a trade offer.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

It's crazy how different of a player he when he plays for England. He plays with more composure and confidence whereas when he plays for United he just looks so shaky and not enjoying his football. I don't think even England Harry Maguire should be starting every match for United but it'd be nice if he could be that player when he's called on.

 

[TsuWave]

How was he conned and beat so easily by that body feint? fecking hell

 

[Van Piorsing]

Oh Harry, Harry...

 

[bosnian_red]

He just can't get away from getting rinsed by attackers can he.... He's only good in a defensive system where he is protected. Needs to leave for his own good

 

[edgecutter]

I cant even relax when this guy comes on. Really needs to be sold after a solid world cup.

 

[Baneofthegame]

Got absolutely sold by Dennis, first game back from illness and only came on late so will give him a pass.

 

[Litch]

Now 5th choice after Shaw…..

 

[BorisManUtd]

World Cup proved once again that Maguire is a very good player which is important as I think that could lead to club getting decent money for him next summer because he won't be a starter for ten Hag in long term. And you don't keep a guy you paid 80M on the bench. West Ham, Leicester and similar teams would be in for him I believe.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Now 5th choice after Shaw…..

Id play Casemiro over him too.

 

[harms]

How was he conned and beat so easily by that body feint? fecking hell

It's for the memes. The man is committed to the cause.

 

[Sylar]

He got minutes which was a plus.

 

[Red Royal]

Well done to him for making himself available so soon after illness. A few of the others couldn't make the bench...whatever criticism he gets, Harry always tries his best!

 

[tentan]

Id play Casemiro over him too.

And McTominay

 

[GifLord]

 

[Real Name]

Not only he got beat, his body balance completely went to the other side so he cant recover quickly from being dribbled past. He moves like a tanker.

 

[fallengt]

I don't understand why he turns into different player when he plays for United.
This isn't systemic problem. He got beaten easily by Nott Forest's attackers...

 

[padzilla]

I don't understand why he turns into different player when he plays for United.
This isn't systemic problem. He got beaten easily by Nott Forest's attackers...

Premier League is a much faster pace than international football - much more difficult to defend - plus England are set up to negate their problems in central defence with what's often essentially a back seven when the opposition have the ball.

 

[Andre Kagawa]

Can't we raise some money from this guy in January?

 

[NoPace]

We'll hold out until the summer to sell him, but if an offer for 10-15M extra came in from a desperate team needing a CB to stay up or something and he'd go there, I think you move for him, even if it means an emergency 2-3M loan like Liverpool did with Kabak or them sending a young guy on loan to a Champo team that would sell their starting CB if we loaned them Pellistri or Elanga or someone like that.

He's not better than Shaw or Casemiro for us, so really the only thing keeping him from being 5th choice at CB is that Casemiro can't be replaced at DM by anyone other than McTominay and he's as bad as Maguire.

 

[Litch]

Id play Casemiro over him too.

I make you right…..

 

[Giggsy13]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Maguire over Gvardiol…

 

[Nogho]

So, now Luke Shaw is preferred over the captain as a centre back. Cause who puts a "sick" player on the bench to spread his lovely sickness on a cold and rainy night in Manchester? That's a really bad "performance". Poor lad. Out in the cold...

 

[LARulz]

That last minute stupid header he did on the edge of our box is why I get so infuriated with him. He was under 0 pressure, had 2 United players next to him but instead just aimlessly heads it forward to a Wolves player

He is such an idiot at times I can't even give him any benefit of the doubt. He does this too often

 

[Lee565]

That last minute stupid header he did on the edge of our box is why I get so infuriated with him. He was under 0 pressure, had 2 United players next to him but instead just aimlessly heads it forward to a Wolves player

He is such an idiot at times I can't even give him any benefit of the doubt. He does this too often

This, all that experience and it seems like it is for nothing, why freak out with no pressure around him, he could have even allowed the ball to drop at his feet but instead pulled of an erratic headed clearance that made no sense

 

[Giant Midget]

That last minute stupid header he did on the edge of our box is why I get so infuriated with him. He was under 0 pressure, had 2 United players next to him but instead just aimlessly heads it forward to a Wolves player

He is such an idiot at times I can't even give him any benefit of the doubt. He does this too often

This. Excruciating watching his dumbfeckery on a constant basis.