Probably the ancient old chaps who run the FA forced his hand to be honest.
Harry Maguire involved in incident with police in Greece - conviction nullified by appeal, full retrial pending
- Thread starter RonaldoVII
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So they rush a sham trial through and declare GUILTY along with the sentence to the world.
Then an appeal is made, and it's immediately quashed pending a proper trial.
Amazing.
Is it 1850 or something?! This can't be a 2020 european trial
Then an appeal is made, and it's immediately quashed pending a proper trial.
Amazing.
Is it 1850 or something?! This can't be a 2020 european trial
It's a bit mad but apparently standard procedure in Greece for appeals.
"In accordance with the Greek judicial process, the filing of an appeal extinguishes the initial court verdict and nullifies the conviction."
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40038266.html
When this ordeal is over the Caf will become greek legal laymen experts
They were scored 6.6 on being free of corruption in their criminal justice system...
The law is based on evidence. Police, procecutors, and judge are the tools to find justice, they are not the law.
We barely find a strong evidence from the report, let's say you trust the police more than a drunk celebrity, then where is the evidence of this? at least the report when they fail at alcohol/drug test. Not some drinking bills none sense.
In the interview, the procecutor said Maguire just need to apologize to close the case, it's more convincing that they have no strong evidence other than the report from the police who also the victim in this case.
Id leave the capticancy up the the players. If they want him leading them, leave him captain
So everyone is corrupt (police, judge etc) and in the wrong apart from Maguire. That's fair enough.
Can't we just pair him up with Jones for the first few games of the season and have the courts deem that punishment enough?
It's basically an overall score of .66 out of 1 from the looks of it (20th out of 24 for the region, presumably the EU). Great.
Did you drill down to see the .55 score for due process and the rights of the accused, .50 for the effectiveness of criminal investigations, .43 for the impartiality of the criminal justice system? Maybe you did but they don't fit your narrative so I guess you felt they don't need to be mentioned despite their obvious relevance to being charged, accused, investigated and tried in that country. Based on these metrics, the only element where they surpassed expectations on this is the timeliness of adjudication.
Nevertheless, you asked for and got data that supports the notion that there is corruption in the Greek criminal justice system. It's not the worst in the world but the reliability of the official account of this whole affair would be a different story had it happened in any Scandinavian country or the Netherlands based on that organization's metrics. As such, there begins to be an element of reasonable doubt for the police's account of events. That's all I'm getting at. Greek people and systems aren't horrible and anti-democratic but their state apparatus appears to have some flaws compared to Canada, the US, UK, northern Europe and a number of Caribbean countries.
This all sounds like an episode from the 1960's TV series, The Saint. Where was Simon Templar when he was needed?
There’s a big problem with unruly Brits, not just in Greece or Amsterdam. Of course there’s a certain amount of hypocrisy as the tourists are essential for the local economy. However, that doesn’t excuse the behavior of these yobs, from Magaluf to Malia, and the total arrogance & disrespect they show towards the local people. I’m sure most Brits (the majority behave themselves) will have experienced this type of behaviour from first hand. And it is mostly Brits. The Dutch and Danish also have some problems, but no where near in the scale of the Brits.
In my travels I have had the misfortune of dealing with unruly Canadians, unruly Americans, unruly Australians, unruly Dutch and unruly eastern Europeans (not sure which country, I think Serbia?). Never Brits, but perhaps it's because I don't go to the right places.
All countries have their share of idiots unfortunately.
The conclusion is that Geeece scores below regional average and well above world average. It does not conclude that there juridical system is corrupt and a sham, that’s your own interpretation. Greece does not have a corrupt juridical system, even if it is not yet at the standard of let’s say the Netherlands. And that’s only to be expected considering that Greece is a relatively poor country compared to The Netherlands.
Getting back to Maguire, I sense a bit of muscle flexing muscles from the cops trying to show Maguire whose in charge (re unruly Brits). The kind of behaviour the Daily Mail would applaud if the shoe was on the other foot (unruly foreigners). Not very professional, but then again from my experience you’d be well advised not to upset any police anywhere, incl. the UK. But all this of course is pure speculation.
Surely if you rely on nothing but the word of police officers - don't arm them with body cameras, or CCTV to record any potential alterations or attempted bribery - then you're asking for corruption to be a huge part of your justice system.
I find it literally incredible that he was "repeatedly" trying to bribe these officers, without one of them thinking it would be a good idea to record him doing so.
Go to Magaluf in August...
I was reading a Dutch article last year and the figures in Amsterdam were atrocious. The amount of arrests on Friday & Saturday nights had tripled or something in ten years, the increase was almost solely to do with British tourists. The cost and burden on the authorities is great. Similar experiences in other popular tourist destinations were mentioned, as well as the lack of action being taken by successive British governments to tackle the problem. Hence these accelerated trials for misdemeanors.
Oh yeah, I don't disagree. There's plenty of accounts of this sort of thing, especially with football fans. But that doesn't make it fair to assume that Maguire is this type of person, when everything we've seen from him so far suggests otherwise and when we also consider the fact he did have family with him, it's even less likely that he was out being loutish.
While we have limited knowledge of Maguire as a person, it's less likely that he was behaving badly and causing trouble (i.e. he may have justifiable motive for his actions) compared to the potential for flaws in the application of justice where the trouble occurred.
Well, sounds like the exact type of place I would go out of my way to avoid!
You're putting words into my mouth that I did not say, kindly refrain. Thanks.
So does that mean if you’re sentenced to a custodial sentence and you appeal you won’t spend a day in prison until the outcome of that appeal? Mad.
Come on now, he didn't kill anyone to get such a punishment.
I think Maguire could well be a victim of the reputation of the British tourists with the local coppers.As for the rushed trial, I suspect they do that to ease the burden on their juridical system.
I was referring to the general view of some posting on here, not you in particular.
Video evidence? You watch too much hollywood mu friend
Aparently there was some of that from the station speaking to Maguires favor but it was denied, so says the defence at least
What are you on about?
There apparently is video evidence. One of the reasons Maguires lawyers wanted to postpone the trial was so he could review it.
Do I really have to scroll down the pages of this thread?! Several posters were stating the trial was a sham and the Greek juridical was corrupt. Stories about Albanian mobsters having control over the cops and drugging Maguire’s sister, and some even more far fetched theories. Scroll through the thread.
Does anyone know much about the Greek legal system and what are the chances the original decision gets overturned?
Why are we being punished?
Very interesting report from BBC, explaining Greek legal due process and norms, and why things went down the way they did for Maguire. Should be an enlightening read for those who made such easy xenophobic allegations towards Greece, accusing a 'sham or dodgy trial' or abuse of due process. Fact is, any country is entitled to its own legal norms and tourists in another country have to abide by those.
Personally I hope Maguire is innocent, and the appeal can clear that up, but I never for one moment accused Greek police or judiciary of being corrupt or incompetent.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53918506
Why Harry Maguire’s Greek trial went so fast
Greek justice threw the book at Harry Maguire, and fast. His international football career was put on hold after a court gave him a suspended jail term, for repeated bodily harm, attempted bribery, violence against public employees and insult after arrest on Mykonos. He has now appealed, and is now presumed innocent unless the appeal court finds him guilty.
Why was it so quick to get a conviction?
Partly because, in the eyes of Greek justice, he was "caught red-handed. In Greek criminal procedure there is a process known as in flagrante delicto and it applies to people caught in the act of committing an offence" says Athens lawyer Konstantinos Starantzis. In other words, in this sort of case it's totally normal.
For up to 48 hours from the time of an alleged offence - until midnight the next day - police can arrest someone without a warrant. Then, after a preliminary investigation, the suspect must be brought before a public prosecutor, who will decide whether to indict or not. If there's an indictment, a trial must take place either the same day or the day after.
Why were there so many charges?
In Greece, as anywhere else, resistance to arrest and violence towards police officers, if proven at court, is not easily tolerated. The Syros court was convinced that there was some sort of violence towards the policemen involved in the case for two reasons:
In the eyes of the judges, Harry Maguire committed both offences, plus that of attempted bribery, so they simply handed him a relevant sentence.
Is it unusual for this sort of case to go to court?
Booze brawls on popular Greek islands are a common occurrence during the summer. Greek authorities have no interest in either hurting the country's tourism or adding more cases to an already burdened justice system. The reason why this case made it to court was simply because it involved allegations of violence against policemen.
Did Maguire get a fair trial?
It appears both due process and the rule of law were followed. However, with regard to a request brought by Harry Maguire's defence for a postponement of the trial, the judges were not very lenient. Postponement, especially when a new legal team is hired by the defence, is common in Greek trials. It was not obligatory, though, and the judge was well within his remit to reject it.
In some cases, judges decide to reject such requests for secondary reasons, for example to take advantage of witnesses present in the courtroom who might be absent if the trial takes place a year later, or simply to avoid legal tactics of procrastination.
What did the defence say?
During this first stage of the legal process, and pending the footballer's appeal, his defence team failed to convince the judges. England defender Maguire, his brother Joe, and family friend Christopher Sharman denied the charges. The defence focused heavily on their account of how an initial fight started in the alleyways of Mykonos with a group of Albanians.
Ioannis Paradissis, a lawyer for two of the policemen involved, said this was no defence for the charges for which Harry Maguire was accused. "They have injuries and the three defendants say they are not guilty but... they don't explain how these injuries were made," he told the BBC's Today Programme.
Ahead of the verdict, the footballer's lawyer, Andreas Anagnostakis, said his client's conduct was justified because the policemen had allegedly attacked him in his "golden leg" and told him "your career is over".
As it was based on Harry Maguire's words, the judges found this defence not proven in court. According to the prosecution, the attempted bribery charge involved Harry Maguire asking whether he could pay a fine to be released from police custody. His lawyer did not completely deny that, suggesting "it could have been something that was lost in translation".
What hope for his appeal?
It is unclear how long that might take but it usually takes a year from the moment an appeal is lodged. But in Greece an appeal is in effect a retrial, according to Ioannis Paradissis. "So obviously there is still time for the three defendants to say they are sorry and then I believe that the outcome might be different."
As Maguire's club, Manchester United, point out, by lodging an appeal the verdict has been quashed, the conviction nullified and he has neither a criminal record nor is subject to any international travel restrictions.
In the months before Harry Maguire's appeal, his defence team will face a decision whether to provide a more detailed explanation of his innocence or accept wrongdoing and apologise in exchange for the charges to be dropped.
Personally I hope Maguire is innocent, and the appeal can clear that up, but I never for one moment accused Greek police or judiciary of being corrupt or incompetent.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53918506
Why Harry Maguire’s Greek trial went so fast
Greek justice threw the book at Harry Maguire, and fast. His international football career was put on hold after a court gave him a suspended jail term, for repeated bodily harm, attempted bribery, violence against public employees and insult after arrest on Mykonos. He has now appealed, and is now presumed innocent unless the appeal court finds him guilty.
Why was it so quick to get a conviction?
Partly because, in the eyes of Greek justice, he was "caught red-handed. In Greek criminal procedure there is a process known as in flagrante delicto and it applies to people caught in the act of committing an offence" says Athens lawyer Konstantinos Starantzis. In other words, in this sort of case it's totally normal.
For up to 48 hours from the time of an alleged offence - until midnight the next day - police can arrest someone without a warrant. Then, after a preliminary investigation, the suspect must be brought before a public prosecutor, who will decide whether to indict or not. If there's an indictment, a trial must take place either the same day or the day after.
Why were there so many charges?
In Greece, as anywhere else, resistance to arrest and violence towards police officers, if proven at court, is not easily tolerated. The Syros court was convinced that there was some sort of violence towards the policemen involved in the case for two reasons:
In the eyes of the judges, Harry Maguire committed both offences, plus that of attempted bribery, so they simply handed him a relevant sentence.
Is it unusual for this sort of case to go to court?
Booze brawls on popular Greek islands are a common occurrence during the summer. Greek authorities have no interest in either hurting the country's tourism or adding more cases to an already burdened justice system. The reason why this case made it to court was simply because it involved allegations of violence against policemen.
Did Maguire get a fair trial?
It appears both due process and the rule of law were followed. However, with regard to a request brought by Harry Maguire's defence for a postponement of the trial, the judges were not very lenient. Postponement, especially when a new legal team is hired by the defence, is common in Greek trials. It was not obligatory, though, and the judge was well within his remit to reject it.
In some cases, judges decide to reject such requests for secondary reasons, for example to take advantage of witnesses present in the courtroom who might be absent if the trial takes place a year later, or simply to avoid legal tactics of procrastination.
What did the defence say?
During this first stage of the legal process, and pending the footballer's appeal, his defence team failed to convince the judges. England defender Maguire, his brother Joe, and family friend Christopher Sharman denied the charges. The defence focused heavily on their account of how an initial fight started in the alleyways of Mykonos with a group of Albanians.
Ioannis Paradissis, a lawyer for two of the policemen involved, said this was no defence for the charges for which Harry Maguire was accused. "They have injuries and the three defendants say they are not guilty but... they don't explain how these injuries were made," he told the BBC's Today Programme.
Ahead of the verdict, the footballer's lawyer, Andreas Anagnostakis, said his client's conduct was justified because the policemen had allegedly attacked him in his "golden leg" and told him "your career is over".
As it was based on Harry Maguire's words, the judges found this defence not proven in court. According to the prosecution, the attempted bribery charge involved Harry Maguire asking whether he could pay a fine to be released from police custody. His lawyer did not completely deny that, suggesting "it could have been something that was lost in translation".
What hope for his appeal?
It is unclear how long that might take but it usually takes a year from the moment an appeal is lodged. But in Greece an appeal is in effect a retrial, according to Ioannis Paradissis. "So obviously there is still time for the three defendants to say they are sorry and then I believe that the outcome might be different."
As Maguire's club, Manchester United, point out, by lodging an appeal the verdict has been quashed, the conviction nullified and he has neither a criminal record nor is subject to any international travel restrictions.
In the months before Harry Maguire's appeal, his defence team will face a decision whether to provide a more detailed explanation of his innocence or accept wrongdoing and apologise in exchange for the charges to be dropped.
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What exactly do you expect the British governments to have done about it?
I mean, this ending doesn't support that idea that the rule of law is being strictly followed here. The Greek justice system handed down a 21 month jail sentence (suspended) but if Harry says sorry it all goes away?
Everyone who ever travels to Greece in the future needs to remember this. It's like a key to the country!
That’s what the politicians get paid to figure out.
The question is will the apology also require an admission of guilt?
If he claims he's innocent what would he be apologising for?
If he says sorry then their crown prosecution drops the charges. Nothing to do with the juridical system, but does say something about theIr police force.I mean, this ending doesn't support that idea that the rule of law is being strictly followed here. The Greek justice system handed down a 21 month jail sentence (suspended) but if Harry says sorry it all goes away?
Everyone who ever travels to Greece in the future needs to remember this. It's like a key to the country!
With the arrest, the decision to fast track the trial, and all the public statements, it was obvious they are doing this for PR and/or face, and all they want is respect. Quite bizarre to use the justice system to do it though.I mean, this ending doesn't support that idea that the rule of law is being strictly followed here. The Greek justice system handed down a 21 month jail sentence (suspended) but if Harry says sorry it all goes away?
Everyone who ever travels to Greece in the future needs to remember this. It's like a key to the country!
I mean that article is a lukewarm tepic half baked pseudo defence/ more of an explanation of the trial if anything...I mean, this ending doesn't support that idea that the rule of law is being strictly followed here. The Greek justice system handed down a 21 month jail sentence (suspended) but if Harry says sorry it all goes away?
Everyone who ever travels to Greece in the future needs to remember this. It's like a key to the country!
More importantly the appeal causing a retrial makes a joke of the posters who went all in on guilty.. Just like that one but he'll never accept he could be wrong, just will call you a xenophobe even when the international watchdogs support you..
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