With two must win games against Rangers to contend with
How much trouble are Liverpool in?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
They'll win 4-0 tonight and gain confidence from that going into the weekend. Can also see them nicking a couple of draws vs Arsenal & City.
They'll beat Arsenal.
It could go either way at the moment. I’d expect them to steady the ship but there are enough players who look shot of all confidence that it could reach a tipping point.
These games always have a bit of a bite to them and can be very unpredictable. Here's hoping for a 4-0 defeat
Ranieri winning a PL for Leicester was a bigger achievement than Klopp winning a PL and CL for Liverpool.
But I think your struggles are being overblown. Everything looks terrible when you're in bad. I see Liverpool finishing in the top 4 this year. It may be close but you're still a team that challenged last year.
They look diabolical at the back so you'd imagine they'd struggle with Martinelli, Jesus, Saka, and Odegaard.
I'd be pleasantly surprised, Rangers are fragile this season.
I've only watched them this season against Ajax, and they were awful. Pub team at best that night.
They're in as much trouble as any club that expects to challenge for trophies but finds itself seven games into the season with just two wins in the league, and losing their first CL group game 4-1. It's pretty bad. Also, while there have been no strong indications that it's imminent, it's getting to be that time where you can imagine Klopp thinking about his next job. He has done very well at Liverpool and can leave with his head held high, but if they should fumble the entire season and finish well outside the top four, it would tarnish his legacy quite a lot if he stayed until next season and didn't immediately bounce back. As well as he has done, he has only won one league title in seven years, and he might want to try his hand at another league where the rewards aren't so elusive. I would not be surprised at all if he decides to move on to the next chapter of his career after this season, and that could be very bad for Liverpool.
What is the root of their problems? They have scored 18 goals in the league, which is around 2.5 pr match. That is almost exactly the same as last year. Yes, I know they had that 9-0, but still. The big problem is the defending. They have shipped a lot more goals and look very vulnerable. I am pretty confident that "Trent can't defend" is not the reason.
I think the problem is their pressing. Klopp's teams defend by pressing other teams with high intensity, most often far away from their own goal. For that to be effective, all the players have to work together, keeping the distances between players and defence/midfield/attack as short as possible. Everything has to be coordinated, so that one player starts the pressing and the others follow with equal intensity. So far this season, that coordination has not been good enough and the intensity has been lacking. Not all the time, but some of the time in all of the games (which I have seen).
There could be any number of reasons why this has happened. Some of the players may struggle with self confidence, trust or belief in the system (the latter two would very well be the result of the first). It's possible that the loyalty to Klopp is starting to fade (There were some reports that this happened at Dortmund and that he exhausted the players mentally). Also, there could be some kind of internal problem with the squad but I have seen no reports of that, so that sounds unlikely.
I do think it is a mental or group dynamics related problem though. They seem able to put things together for shorter or longer periods of games, just not for the whole game. Long may it continue
I think the problem is their pressing. Klopp's teams defend by pressing other teams with high intensity, most often far away from their own goal. For that to be effective, all the players have to work together, keeping the distances between players and defence/midfield/attack as short as possible. Everything has to be coordinated, so that one player starts the pressing and the others follow with equal intensity. So far this season, that coordination has not been good enough and the intensity has been lacking. Not all the time, but some of the time in all of the games (which I have seen).
There could be any number of reasons why this has happened. Some of the players may struggle with self confidence, trust or belief in the system (the latter two would very well be the result of the first). It's possible that the loyalty to Klopp is starting to fade (There were some reports that this happened at Dortmund and that he exhausted the players mentally). Also, there could be some kind of internal problem with the squad but I have seen no reports of that, so that sounds unlikely.
I do think it is a mental or group dynamics related problem though. They seem able to put things together for shorter or longer periods of games, just not for the whole game. Long may it continue
Could also be VVD losing some pace after his ACL reconstruction? Their defending was night and day before/after signing him. If his performance level even drops 5% the whole house of cards could fall apart.
Hoping for a Morelos master class tonight against VVD.
Biggest reason I see is like you said, the pressing. In particular the midfield.
Since Klopp joined, they’ve always played a high line. Right now that’s a suicidal tactic because they don’t have a midfield to press and stop the supply. Even the best defenders in the world will struggle with a high line when the midfield doesn’t press.
Henderson and Wijnaldum in their prime were two of the best. Fabinho has fallen off a cliff too. That’s where the problem lies for me and I don’t see how Klopp changes it this season.
He will continue to play a very high line and they’ll continue to face counter attacks with runners through on goal against them. If it wasn’t for Alisson it would be a disasterous start to the season for them.
Colak will start and he will cause them real problems. He's a proper number 9 and has very good movement, I'm backing him to get one tonight for sure.
Trouble would be going into administration or relegation . They’re not so feck them
They've had to cycle off their asthma medication.
But seriously, I think there's a few things going on. Losing Mane has been a huge miss for them. I always thought he made the forward line tick with his pressing and ability. He was a real team forward and now they've broken up that trident of the front three they just don't look the same. Firmino is a fantastic link up man and he's been getting fewer minutes with the additions of the new signings and Salah hasn't been putting up the same insane numbers he did since last seasons afcon. They're in the throws of dismantling the forward lineup that dominated for so long.
For me when they were at the peak of their powers their midfield was a relentless pressing machine with Winni, Henderson and fabinho/milner. Their current midfield looks like a combination of Fabinho + elliot and either Hendo/milner/Thiago or Cavalho coming in and doesn't seem to be as good. Infact they've played with a different midfield three every singe game this season and only used the same forward line-up twice. Trent has looked incredibly lazy and doesn't seem to want to defend and isn't putting up his insane assist figures to justify his lackluster defending any longer.
I think they're coming to the end of that particular team's cycle and trying to refresh a number of areas at the same time has caused them issues. I don't see them getting back to the heights they were at previously, but time will tell.
But seriously, I think there's a few things going on. Losing Mane has been a huge miss for them. I always thought he made the forward line tick with his pressing and ability. He was a real team forward and now they've broken up that trident of the front three they just don't look the same. Firmino is a fantastic link up man and he's been getting fewer minutes with the additions of the new signings and Salah hasn't been putting up the same insane numbers he did since last seasons afcon. They're in the throws of dismantling the forward lineup that dominated for so long.
For me when they were at the peak of their powers their midfield was a relentless pressing machine with Winni, Henderson and fabinho/milner. Their current midfield looks like a combination of Fabinho + elliot and either Hendo/milner/Thiago or Cavalho coming in and doesn't seem to be as good. Infact they've played with a different midfield three every singe game this season and only used the same forward line-up twice. Trent has looked incredibly lazy and doesn't seem to want to defend and isn't putting up his insane assist figures to justify his lackluster defending any longer.
I think they're coming to the end of that particular team's cycle and trying to refresh a number of areas at the same time has caused them issues. I don't see them getting back to the heights they were at previously, but time will tell.
I think Liverpool will join us and the rest of the also-rans in the Top 4 battle for the foreseeable future. It was a good run while it lasted, but it’s back to reality now.
We're on the same line when it comes to the pressing, but I don't think it is due to any one or two players having "stagnated" or left the club. I think that no matter what one or two players they were able to put in, the problem would persist. From what I have been able to see, it is not the same one or two players who fail in their pressing, it is the team as a whole. It is possible they could coach their way out of it. Klopp has been there for years though, so I struggle to see how that is the crux of the problem. As noted above, I think it may be a mental problem, individually or as a group.
Yeah ive watched him he’s been decent, but Morelos when he’s up for it will occupy their defence all night. He’s just a horrible player to play against. Just want to see him embarrass Liverpool (long shot as it is)
Not sure that they were transformed all that much when he came in, actually. They had a better points average that season without him than they had with him. I seem to recall someone on here posting stats showing that the "goals conceded" did not change that much either. We are on a sidetrack here though, so I won't look for those.
Liverpool have looked great without van Dijk since he came too, apart from the 20-21 season. Not so sure that his perceived lack of form is the reason, though of course, him losing pace would contribute towards the situation for them. A player will always look better in a well-functioning team than in one that has issues. I think the latter is the main problem with Liverpool.
Yeah, thing with Alfredo has been he has been poor this season and unfit, caused issues with the team selection getting into the CL. But he scored at the weekend and looked a bit fitter, plus as you say when he really tries he can bully defenders so see what happens.Yeah ive watched him he’s been decent, but Morelos when he’s up for it will occupy their defence all night. He’s just a horrible player to play against. Just want to see him embarrass Liverpool (long shot as it is)
A number of Liverpools most important players look finished, Henderson and Van Dijk look done, Fabinho and Matip don't look as good as they were either.
Trent has never been particularly strong defensively, he didn't need to be though when their two centre backs and midfielders were at their peak.
Brighton could have scored six or seven past them, so could Napoli. It looks like end of an era stuff for them, too many players that have gone past their best.
Hopefully theres a ‘vs Dortmund’ type of performance left in this Rangers team tonight.
19 other clubs wish they were in as much 'trouble' as Liverpool. They will definitely get it together soon enough. If they don't finish top 4 (likely 2nd), I will go and buy a hat to eat.
I wrote previously that their four-year over-performing cycle finished at the end of last year. They were incredibly lucky to be able to get a top manager and gather some of the best players in the PL during the peak of their careers without having spent an insane amount of money (net spending).
The cycle has ended.
The cycle has ended.
I think they'll always have goals in them with Son, Kane and Richarlison and are solid enough at the back. Won't be pretty but it's effective.
They'll smash the mighty Rangers tonight and it'll all be fantastic again!
I'd say he has visibly dropped since the injury. He may compensate and adjust his game but in my opinion he's still post injury.
I think Henderson age means he's lost a bit of gas, and he was the legs of the midfield.
What?
Are you thick or what? Do you really need it explained to you why the thread was bumped and you were quoted?
What?
You're still on this? Jesus...
Okay I'll update you. 4 points off top 4 (with seven, yes, just seven, of thirty eight games played) and looking good in their CL group. So tbh I don't know why you quoted me. Must be well thick me. Oh and criticise the post, not the poster.
I quoted you because you said this “utterly ridiculous thread” should be closed.
Any normal person would either ignore the bump or admit that yeah, maybe Liverpool’s poor start to the season might actually be worthy of discussion after all.
Instead, you pretend you don’t know why it’s been bumped and then double down. With an added whinge about me being mean to you. Well done.
Your thread is still wrong though isn't it? It is an utterly ridiculous thread. Oh and "added whinge"? You're the one who got all angry when I queried your bump. I'm just following the rules of this forum.
Double down? Nah I just bit for your pleasure, because that's what you wanted when you quoted me, wasn't it? You're welcome. I suspect you'll now be praying for Liverpool to lose every game now purely so you can continue to quote people on this thread.
Liverpool will do well this season. You've overreacted.
I want Liverpool to lose every game regardless. Obviously.
Liverpool “doing well” should involve a title challenge. Because that’s the standard they’ve set. We’ll see how that goes for them. But they’re a long way off that now. Hence this “utterly ridiculous” (sic) thread intended to discuss if their bad start was a blip or something more significant.
And to be clear, you first post in this thread annoyed me. Your response to the bump wasn’t annoying at all. It was just stupid.
Ah well never mind eh? To each their own. Have a good day.
Bump.