Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[moses]

Go watch Al Jazeera Live on youtube! They have a couple of reporters on the ground in Gaza.

Ah I know well, I was answering the question asked.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Why do you seek ultra-extra confirmation of baby beheadings? did you look for graphic proof of all the other executions?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_propaganda

 

[moses]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_propaganda

Exactly, its used to dehumanise the enemy and manufacture consent for heavy retaliation.

 

[nimic]

It's crazy. We see every sorts of claims that are quickly modified or denied.

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It was a complete false alarm, and yet it was broadcast essentially as truth. Imagine the fear it must have caused in Israel ("is it happening again?").

 

[The Corinthian]

For Western reporters the Islamist factor probably also plays a role.

Israel is the one with a history of murdering journalists and reporters, not Palestine. A cursory Google would give you a high profile case from last year.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

https://x.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1712048316131795411?s=20

Look at the BBC, giving this guy a platform. They just won’t let up with their Zionist propaganda, will they?

(Am I doing this right?)

 

[Laurencio]

Let's start there. Ukraine is going to have to be rebuilt at significant cost after the war ends (hopefully in their favor), we don't say "feck it, bend over for Russia"

I wish we could start there, but there's no Palestine to rebuild. Ukraine was a functioning state before the war, Palestine is decidedly not. The "election" of Hamas, and Bibi on the Israeli side let's be honest, complicated things further. Before you can rebuild you need something to work with, and there's nothing there. Billions invested in a peace that no-one wants, no effective central leadership in palestine, no "government" with clear territorial control, and huge difficulties in getting money where they need to go. I don't think we should stop, far from it, but there are significant challenges we just don't see in Ukraine.

And yes, Israel should be held accountable for undermining the peace proceess. Hopefully the west pressure them more on the west bank as Gaza falls. At least the west bank can be made into a larger continous territory.

 

[owlo]

This is a fantastic read.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...ow-his-family-survived-hamas-massacre/675596/

These two guys over the age of 60 are driving in a regular car. It’s not even a Jeep or something. It’s not an armored vehicle. It’s just a car, like people take on the New Jersey Turnpike on their way to work in the morning. They’re driving now on the road where half an hour earlier there was a deadly ambush of soldiers. They both have weapons. My father took weapons from the wounded soldiers, who gave them to him because he told them, “I’m going back in.”

Courage. Love. And resulting bullets in the heads of terrorist scum.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

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Look at the BBC, giving this guy a platform. They just won’t stop broadcasting Zionist propaganda, will they?

(Am I doing this right?)

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Bernie Sanders made a statement for what it's worth (Probably very little)

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As you say: probably very little.

But it's a decent statement for my money.

 

[RedTiger]

Anyone else struggle to get anything done with these things going on in the world? It's been bad enough with Ukraine, but now this too. At least Ukraine is fairly black and white, this is all murky grey with too many blotches of black and not enough specs of white, so difficult to understand. I have a constant urge to check latest developments and try in vain to figure things out.

I know, woe me.

This is just a rinse and repeat thing for me as heartless as it sounds. I just get on with my life.

 

[JPRouve]

Israel has military censorship that tends to kick in during times of crisis which might explain it.

I figured that it had something to do with controlling information. But from observers POV it means that we can't actually trust anyone because they are most likely not getting informations from a direct source.

 

[golden_blunder]

And what would they do about it?

Dialogue. Someone needs to be brave. It’s the only way

 

[golden_blunder]

I don't know GB. In broad terms this is only heading in one direction.

I know. Depressing for humanity that adults can’t sit down and find a solution that doesn’t involve killing everyone

 

[Pintu]

Out of interest, who is that Daniel Levy? i realise it’s not the “master negotiator“.

Former advisor (negotiator) under 2 Israeli Prime ministers.

Here is the entire thing:

 

[do.ob]

Dialogue. Someone needs to be brave. It’s the only way

You started with:

"Whilst I understand their emotional reaction, it’s not going to solve any problem for them, it’s going to exacerbate the problems". Would dialogue exacerbate Israel's problems?

 

[owlo]

Dialogue. Someone needs to be brave. It’s the only way

About as much chance as the US negotiating with Al Queda after 9/11.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

This is just a rinse and repeat thing for me as heartless as it sounds. I just get on with my life.

yeah I think honestly most people should just stop caring about things that they can‘t change anyways. If you are interested in it, fair enough, but if it depresses you, just don’t bother

 

[hasanejaz88]

I made it clear what I responded to you about.

I never compared the plight of any Germans to Palestinians, the situation on the ground is not comparable. The majority of wars result, as I said twice to you already, with whoever is strongest taking advantage of the weak. In this case Palestine unfortunately for them as time has gone one has become the weaker.

Well that was what I was doing, if you didn't understand that it was on you. But how exactly are they not comparable?

 

[carvajal]

Because it's an extremely sensitive accusation aimed at Hamas, and Israel has a history of lies. So people want Western journalists to say outright "Yes, I saw it with my own eyes".

It's being used to legitimise continued murder.

As jaded as we are by war and death, thankfully infanticide is not yet just shrugged off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocity_propaganda

I had interpreted it as people who, while condemning what happened, have constructed an argument of "It's well deserved", an eye for an eye, obviously very sweetened, with a lot of text.
Either because they can't let go of their political ideas or because of a bit of radicalisation.
I assumed that beheading babies made the argument even more complicated.
In any case after the executions (even of a little girl in front of her siblings and parents) a brutal response seemed clear and everyone knew that those sons of Satan did not think of the people of Gaza at the time.

 

[golden_blunder]

You started with:

"Whilst I understand their emotional reaction, it’s not going to solve any problem for them, it’s going to exacerbate the problems". Would dialogue exacerbate Israel's problems?

Think we’re on different tracks bud

 

[nimic]

https://x.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1712048316131795411?s=20

Look at the BBC, giving this guy a platform. They just won’t let up with their Zionist propaganda, will they?

(Am I doing this right?)

I don't know, what are you trying to do?

 

[golden_blunder]

About as much chance as the US negotiating with Al Queda after 9/11.

And what did they learn

 

[Pintu]

Look at the BBC, giving this guy a platform. They just won’t stop broadcasting Zionist propaganda, will they?

(Am I doing this right?)

I have no idea what you are doing ? The guy in question did serve a Zionist government and is dedicating his life to promoting a peaceful solution. Not what I’d associate with current “Zionist propaganda”

This is the BBC World. I think they are a bit more measured in their “anti-Palestinian propaganda” than the local feed.

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

Exactly, its used to dehumanise the enemy and manufacture consent for heavy retaliation.

Yeah. As an example, the famous 'Saddam's troops murdered "maybe 40-50" babies in incubators' lie was a big turning point for gaining the American public's support to enter the Gulf War.

Spoiler

Take the Kuwaiti babies story. Its origins go back to the first world war when British propaganda accused the Germans of tossing Belgian babies into the air and catching them on their bayonets. Dusted off and updated for the Gulf war, this version had Iraqi soldiers bursting into a modern Kuwaiti hospital, finding the premature babies ward and then tossing the babies out of incubators so that the incubators could be sent back to Iraq.

The story, improbable from the start, was first reported by the Daily Telegraph in London on September 5 1990. But the story lacked the human element; it was an unverified report, there were no pictures for television and no interviews with mothers grieving over dead babies.

That was soon rectified. An organisation calling itself Citizens for a Free Kuwait (financed by the Kuwaiti government in exile) had signed a $10m contract with the giant American public relations company, Hill & Knowlton, to campaign for American military intervention to oust Iraq from Kuwait.

The Human Rights Caucus of the US Congress was meeting in October and Hill & Knowlton arranged for a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl to tell the babies' story before the congressmen. She did it brilliantly, choking with tears at the right moment, her voice breaking as she struggled to continue. The congressional committee knew her only as "Nayirah" and the television segment of her testimony showed anger and resolution on the faces of the congressmen listening to her. President Bush referred to the story six times in the next five weeks as an example of the evil of Saddam's regime.

In the Senate debate whether to approve military action to force Saddam out of Kuwait, seven senators specifically mentioned the incubator babies atrocity and the final margin in favour of war was just five votes. John R Macarthur's study of propaganda in the war says that the babies atrocity was a definitive moment in the campaign to prepare the American public for the need to go to war.

It was not until nearly two years later that the truth emerged. The story was a fabrication and a myth, and Nayirah, the teenage Kuwaiti girl, coached and rehearsed by Hill & Knowlton for her appearance before the Congressional Committee, was in fact the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States.

Amnesty International 'corroborated' this fictional story days after it was first told. Multiple reporters claimed to have cast iron evidence of it. Some even said they'd seen it unfold first hand. When the lie first started falling apart, the same reporters who'd claimed to see it started walking it back...things like "well, OK so it didn't happen like that...but nurses and doctors fled, leaving the babies alone, so they died anyway" which again was never backed up with a single shred of evidence.

 

[Laurencio]

I know. Depressing for humanity that adults can’t sit down and find a solution that doesn’t involve killing everyone

You wouldn't believe how much is down to personal pride and legacy thinking.

 

[Ragnar123]

Easy.

I didn't know anyone would take it literally. Of course in this context I meant the difference between a normal threat or a red alert warning about a barbarism with thousands of terrorists. I won't comment on the second part.

 

[JPRouve]

I know. Depressing for humanity that adults can’t sit down and find a solution that doesn’t involve killing everyone

It's very common for adults to only behave kindly because they fear the consequences of any other behavior. In this case one side is largely shielded from consequences while the other side believes that he has nothing to lose and doesn't care about the consequences..

 

[berbatrick]

If Israeli soldiers started purposely gunning down women and children and claiming victory, I suspect world opinion would shift very quickly.

2nd on in particular:

Spoiler

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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/F2odqQIaXds

There was also a video of a middle-aged/older woman being shot with a flag in her hand, was on twitter yesterday, can't find it now. All from the march of return. I think those events shifted "world opinion" a small amount, politics didn't change, and conditions on the ground didn't change at all.

People can condemn the attack, but there's no need to pretend that peaceful options would be meaningful or effective, at all.
...

"Level the place"

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[hasanejaz88]

Former advisor (negotiator) under 2 Israeli Prime ministers.

Here is the entire thing:

Fantastic interview, hits all the right points.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Former advisor (negotiator) under 2 Israeli Prime ministers.

Here is the entire thing:

Don't really understand how anyone can disagree with that. Maybe the only part you could take issue with is that you can get round a table to negotiate with Hamas. I don't know.

What I do know is that some cnuts did some some horrible things to innocent people. Now some cnuts on the other side will do some horrible things to innocent people. Some cnuts on both sides will die but it'll be mostly be innocent people.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I have no idea what you are doing ? The guy in question did serve a Zionist government and is dedicating his life to promoting a peaceful solution. Not what I’d associate with current “Zionist propaganda”

This is the BBC World. I think they are a bit more measured in their “anti-Palestinian propaganda” than the local feed.

I was being sarcastic. I think the BBC does a fairly good job of being balanced in their coverage. Giving a voice to a variety of opinions. Which you wouldn’t think with all the online noise about them being a mouthpiece for “Western Propaganda”.

 

[Laurencio]

2nd on in particular:

Spoiler

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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/F2odqQIaXds

There was also a video of a middle-aged/older woman being shot with a flag in her hand, was on twitter yesterday, can't find it now. All from the march of return. I think those events shifted "world opinion" a small amount, politics didn't change, and conditions on the ground didn't change at all.

People can condemn the attack, but there's no need to pretend that peaceful options would be meaningful or effective, at all.
...

"Level the place"

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Meh, many American politicians generally say they want to nuke Iran too. Their opinions are ridiculous, but they are known to make these sort of statements when something happens.

 

[do.ob]

2nd on in particular:

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It's a scummy statement, but how is he "explicitly calling for war crimes". What people are you guys following on Twitter.

 

[owlo]

And what did they learn

Ive said 100x I don’t think this is smart. But actuality has to hit you at some point. This is the only recourse for them in this moment. There’s no point discussing a solution that cannot happen.

 

[nickm]

Meh, many American politicians generally say they want to nuke Iran too. Their opinions are ridiculous, but they are known to make these sort of statements when something happens.

I think he's an idiot, but I read the Rubio thing as eradicating Hamas, not Gaza.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

It's a scummy statement, but how is he "explicitly calling for war crimes".

When told that civilians are going to die horribly because they've got nowhere else to go, the congressman's response is "That’s something Hamas should’ve thought of."

It's bordering on explicit.

 

[hasanejaz88]

2nd on in particular:

Spoiler

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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/F2odqQIaXds

There was also a video of a middle-aged/older woman being shot with a flag in her hand, was on twitter yesterday, can't find it now. All from the march of return. I think those events shifted "world opinion" a small amount, politics didn't change, and conditions on the ground didn't change at all.

People can condemn the attack, but there's no need to pretend that peaceful options would be meaningful or effective, at all.
...

I really wonder how others expect a group of people to retain their humanity when you watch videos like this and realize it happens to them on almost a daily basis, to add on top the existing struggle they have to face with the blockade. The point is no one here can imagine what it feels like to live with that hopelessness.

Bombing and starving them will solve nothing and Israel know this. Unless you want to give them their freedom, you better have to annihilate them completely.

 

[berbatrick]

It's a scummy statement, but how is he "explicitly calling for war crimes". What people are you guys following on Twitter.

What do you think the response, "Hamas should have thought of this", when told that "2 mil are trapped there", means?

Unless you want to give them their freedom, you better have to annihilate them completely.

Agreed.

 

[owlo]

I think he's an idiot, but I read the Rubio thing as eradicating Hamas, not Gaza.

isnt rubio the super smart one with a beard and detestable views on things like abortion but good on foreign affairs? Or is that Cruz? I can never keep up!