Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Tibs]

They are honestly absolute cnuts - and yet some Zionists that I know, continue to paint themselves as the victims in this.

Genuine Q - are we soon going to start calling Hamas the resistance, instead of terrorists?

 

[maniak]

They are honestly absolute cnuts - and yet some Zionists that I know, continue to paint themselves as the victims in this.

Genuine Q - are we soon going to start calling Hamas the resistance, instead of terrorists?

No, because they are terrorists.

A new organization might emerge with a legitimate claim to be a resistance group.

 

[Idxomer]

No, because they are terrorists.

A new organization might emerge with a legitimate claim to be a resistance group.

Why limit yourself? Hamas are a lot of things. They are both a terrorist and a resistance group.

There was a great post earlier in the thread about the narrowness of putting Hamas in that terrorist box.

A week ago, I posted an interview with Afif Safieh, a member of Fatah and former Palestinian ambassador to different countries, where he also made some great points about Hamas here.

Spoiler

The birth and the strength of Hamas has really damaged the Palestinian national movement, and I believe their emergence in Palestinian politics was mishandled. I for one, as I was then ambassador in Washington, I was not in agreement with the way the world, under Israel’s instigation, and some in our leadership, handled the electoral victory of Hamas in the legislative elections of 2006. By the way, it wasn’t spellbinding, it wasn’t overwhelming, they won with 44% and Fatah got 42%, and in those elections, Fatah had succeeded in defeating itself, because they went in dispersed ranks and ran several lists in the name of Fatah, dispersing the votes. But I was, as a democrat, favourable that the world should deal with the results of this election, and not under Israel’s instigation, and the bush administration, which was not very sophisticated, and was populated with many pro-Israelis.

They wanted to quarantine the Palestinians because of the Hamas victory, and it complicated our political life, and it has damaged our political system, this exclusion of Hamas. My opinion then was the following: their victory is not overwhelming, but they are the obvious victors of the election, and as a democrat, one has to gracefully win, or gracefully lose an election, and as a democrat, I believe democracy is made of four ingredients, its a multi-party system, the rule of the majority, the respect for the minority, and number four, the last election should not be the last election. And I personally believe that Hamas is not a monolithic movement. It is a movement that has several schools of thought within it, and within it, you have a democratic school, a modernist school, and you have a militant, radical, dogmatic school on the other hand. If we dealt with wisdom with the Hamas victory in 2006, I personally believe that we could have helped the modernist democratic wing within Hamas, to prevail.

By quarantining them, and by ghettoizing them and by antagonizing them, on the contrary, we pushed the militant wing on the ascendancy. So, we dealt with it not with great wisdom unfortunately. Today, I am not happy that there isn’t a sufficiently deep and broad dialogue within Palestinian factions, it’s sad. If, at any moment of our history we needed national cohesion and national unity, it’s today. We don’t have it unfortunately.

 

[maniak]

Why limit yourself? Hamas are a lot of things. They are both a terrorist and a resistance group.

There was a great post earlier in the thread about the narrowness of putting Hamas in that terrorist box.

A week ago, I posted an interview with Afif Safieh, a member of Fatah and former Palestinian ambassador to different countries, where he also made some great points about Hamas here.

Spoiler

The birth and the strength of Hamas has really damaged the Palestinian national movement, and I believe their emergence in Palestinian politics was mishandled. I for one, as I was then ambassador in Washington, I was not in agreement with the way the world, under Israel’s instigation, and some in our leadership, handled the electoral victory of Hamas in the legislative elections of 2006. By the way, it wasn’t spellbinding, it wasn’t overwhelming, they won with 44% and Fatah got 42%, and in those elections, Fatah had succeeded in defeating itself, because they went in dispersed ranks and ran several lists in the name of Fatah, dispersing the votes. But I was, as a democrat, favourable that the world should deal with the results of this election, and not under Israel’s instigation, and the bush administration, which was not very sophisticated, and was populated with many pro-Israelis.

They wanted to quarantine the Palestinians because of the Hamas victory, and it complicated our political life, and it has damaged our political system, this exclusion of Hamas. My opinion then was the following: their victory is not overwhelming, but they are the obvious victors of the election, and as a democrat, one has to gracefully win, or gracefully lose an election, and as a democrat, I believe democracy is made of four ingredients, its a multi-party system, the rule of the majority, the respect for the minority, and number four, the last election should not be the last election. And I personally believe that Hamas is not a monolithic movement. It is a movement that has several schools of thought within it, and within it, you have a democratic school, a modernist school, and you have a militant, radical, dogmatic school on the other hand. If we dealt with wisdom with the Hamas victory in 2006, I personally believe that we could have helped the modernist democratic wing within Hamas, to prevail.

By quarantining them, and by ghettoizing them and by antagonizing them, on the contrary, we pushed the militant wing on the ascendancy. So, we dealt with it not with great wisdom unfortunately. Today, I am not happy that there isn’t a sufficiently deep and broad dialogue within Palestinian factions, it’s sad. If, at any moment of our history we needed national cohesion and national unity, it’s today. We don’t have it unfortunately.

Well, sure, organizations can be different things, but when one of them is a merciless terrorist group, that kinda trumps the rest.

 

[RedTiger]

No, because they are terrorists.

A new organization might emerge with a legitimate claim to be a resistance group.

And how do you think this new resistance group will resist? What will they do that previous iterations of resistance groups didn't?

 

[maniak]

And how do you think this new resistance group will resist? What will they do that previous iterations of resistance groups didn't?

What happened in october was not resistance. They won't be saints and they'll kill people, the targets and methods will make a difference on how they will be seen.

 

[RedTiger]

What happened in october was not resistance. They won't be saints and they'll kill people, the targets and methods will make a difference on how they will be seen.

I think they should do a weekly protest where they walk to the gaza border with only their underwear on so they're fully unarmed. There's no way Israel would start attacking that kind of protest.

 

[maniak]

I think they should do a weekly protest where they walk to the gaza border with only their underwear on so they're fully unarmed. There's no way Israel would start attacking that kind of protest.

Yeah I guess it's either be dumb and get killed or murder kids in the streets, there's no alternative.

 

[RedTiger]

Yeah I guess it's either be dumb and get killed or murder kids in the streets, there's no alternative.

75 years shows theres no alternative unfortunately, the only deciding factor in any resolution would require the nation that holds Israels purse strings to back their "strong words" with some real action.

 

[maniak]

75 years shows theres no alternative unfortunately, the only deciding factor in any resolution would require the nation that holds Israels purse strings to back their "strong words" with some real action.

I'm not talking about a resolution to the conflict, that of course is beyond any palestinian organization. I'm saying a group can be a legitimate resistance group targeting government associated people and places, like politicians, idf facilities, police stations, military checkpoints, etc. When they roam the streets killing civilians it's hard to call them a resistance force, even if they act like that in other instances.

 

[flameinthesun]

I'm not talking about a resolution to the conflict, that of course is beyond any palestinian organization. I'm saying a group can be a legitimate resistance group targeting government associated people and places, like politicians, idf facilities, police stations, military checkpoints, etc. When they roam the streets killing civilians it's hard to call them a resistance force, even if they act like that in other instances.

Was Nat Turner's rebellion a terrorist movement or a resistance movement?

 

[Super Hans]

Well, sure, organizations can be different things, but when one of them is a merciless terrorist group, that kinda trumps the rest.

Does that logic apply to states like Israel as well?

 

[maniak]

Was Nat Turner's rebellion a terrorist movement or a resistance movement?

Well, sure, organizations can be different things, but when one of them is a merciless terrorist group, that kinda trumps the rest.

I am not familiar with that rebellion, just had a quick google search, but if they went around killing people just because they were white I don't think they're good guys. Again, I know nothing about the context of that particular event.

 

[maniak]

Does that logic apply to states like Israel as well?

the current israeli regime is a criminal regime that engages daily in murdering innocent civilians and they do it on purpose, not because of small mistakes, because they want to ethnically cleanse that area. The methods may differ slightly, but in essence and in end result, there really is no difference between israel and iran nowadays. Both criminals, both terrorists, both murderous.

 

[Super Hans]

I think they should do a weekly protest where they walk to the gaza border with only their underwear on so they're fully unarmed. There's no way Israel would start attacking that kind of protest.

Oh I'm sure they'd find a way

 9 a.m., Mohammad Obeid (24) shot in both legs
At approximately 9 a.m. Mohammad Obeid, a 24-year-old footballer for the Al-Salah Sports Club arrived at the demonstration site with his friend. Mohammad took out his telephone and began recording a “selfie” video. An ISF sniper shot him in the right side of his right leg as he filmed himself approximately 150 m from the separation fence. The bullet passed through his right leg and hit his left leg just above the knee, shattering the base of his femur. It is clear from eyewitness testimony and video footage that at the time that he was shot he was standing alone. The area was quiet and calm, there was no shooting from the Israeli side, no tear gas, no stone throwing from the Palestinian side, no one had set fire to tyres. Mohammad was speaking calmly and filming himself when the ISF sniper shot him. He was neither advancing towards the separation fence nor encouraging anyone to advance towards it. He alternated between having his back to the ISF soldiers and having his back to the demonstrators as he filmed. The ISF sniper shot Mohammad as he turned to his right and stood perpendicular to the separation fence. The bullet’s penetratration of both Mohammad’s legs increased the impact of the injury and subsequent disability.
The Commission finds that Mohammad did not pose an imminent threat of death or serious injury to ISF soldiers when he was shot.

 12.45 p.m., student (21), shot in both legs
The ISF shot a 21-year-old student from El Nusseirat Refugee Camp in both legs with live ammunition around 12.45 p.m. He had just arrived at the demonstrations and got out of a car, approximately one kilometre from the separation fence. The ISF first shot him in the left leg. A few seconds later, ISF soldiers shot him in his right leg. The gunshot to his left leg severed a nerve. The gunshot to his right leg caused catastrophic tissue and bone damage, requiring seven surgeries, including a bone transplant, to avoid amputation.
The Commission finds that he did not pose an imminent threat of death or serious injury to ISF soldiers when he was shot.

 3 p.m., Yousef Kronz (19), shot in both legs, led to amputation
Yousef Kronz was a 19-year-old student journalist when he attended the demonstration site east of El Bureij on 30 March. He wore a blue “PRESS” vest and carried his photography equipment, including a camera and a tripod. He sat cross-legged on top of a sand dune to take photographs of the demonstrators, at least 800 m from the separation fence. After approximately 40 minutes he stood up. As he stood up, the ISF shot him with two bullets in immediate succession which hit him in the right knee and the left knee. He collapsed on the ground. Yousef’s right leg was later amputated.
The Commission finds that Yousef did not pose an imminent threat of death or serious injury to ISF soldiers when he was shot.

 

[That_Bloke]

I think they should do a weekly protest where they walk to the gaza border with only their underwear on so they're fully unarmed. There's no way Israel would start attacking that kind of protest.

Sorry but the whole post is an utterly naive take. I'll also skip the horrendous "in their underwears" part.

Look up the Great March of Return in 2018.

 

[RedTiger]

Sorry but the whole post is an utterly naive take.

Look up the Great March of Return in 2018.

It was a tongue in cheek post. I'm 46, I'm older than Hamas and I remember incidents going back to the 80s. There's no form of protest that the Israelis would be cool with, none.

 

[That_Bloke]

It was a tongue in cheek post. I'm 46, I'm older than Hamas and I remember incidents going back to the 80s. There's no form of protest that the Israelis would be cool with, none.

Good grief, that completely went over my head.

My apologies.

 

[RedTiger]

Good grief, that completely went over my head.

My apologies.

That's alright I thought the bit about going to the border unarmed would have been a clue.

 

[That_Bloke]

That's alright I thought the bit about going to the border unarmed would have been a clue.

It actually was, but I've seen so many wild takes in this thread that I directly went for the wrong interpretation.

 

[VorZakone]

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[VorZakone]

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[Idxomer]

 

[Idxomer]

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[VorZakone]

"Thank you Smotrich and Ben-Gvir,

Your contribution to ending American support for the war continues to impress,

Thanks to you we will not receive another round of shells and bombs, we will give up another veto in the Security Council and we will remain without an iron dome for our fighters in the international legal arena."

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[VorZakone]

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[Suedesi]

Bill Maher nailed it. Word by word.

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Bill Maher has never nailed anything in his life. Hypocritical cnut.

 

[That_Bloke]

Bill Maher has never nailed anything in his life. Hypocritical cnut.

Imagine quoting Bill Maher and parading it as a proof.

Braindead take.

 

[nimic]

Bill Maher has never nailed anything in his life. Hypocritical cnut.

A Suedesi post I completely and utterly agree with. The world is ending.

 

[Jotun]

Bill Maher has never nailed anything in his life. Hypocritical cnut.

He is also a liar. I remember when he interviewed random christians on streets and asking them religious questions and then answering with complete lies and fabrications, such as that the crucifiction of Jesus was stolen from egyption mythology etc.

P.s. I'm an atheist, but trying to attack christianity (or any religion) with lies is still big no.

IMHO he is a hack interested in propagating only his agenda.

 

[VorZakone]

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[jadaba]

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It has reached the point where this kind of statement doesn't really shift any needle in convincing me. There is evidence that Hamas during some moments operated in or around the complex, but there's been nothing to suggest that this was anything more than very limited extents. The idea of Al Shifa standing above a command centre still seems to be a major stretch of the imagination. We are in an era where intelligence, at least in the western world, has been made more transparent following some failures and mistakes, so the decision to not release any relating to this suggests it would not be compelling.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Oren absolutely nailed it. Word by word.

 

[maniak]

Oren absolutely nailed it. Word by word.

Did he nail it as well as bill maher?

 

[Ish]

Did he nail it as well as bill maher?

 

[NotThatSoph]

Bill Maher, Douglas Murray and some youtube travel guy. What a truly remarkable information diet.

 

[Idxomer]

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[Bosnian_fan]

I'm not really sure if Hasbara masters are aware that boting in the way Giggsy PO and some others are doing is not going to make the rest of us overly sympathetic to the Israel's genocidal cause.

 

[RedTiger]

I'm not really sure if Hasbara masters are aware that boting in the way Giggsy PO and some others are doing is not going to make the rest of us overly sympathetic to the Israel's genocidal cause.

Not much they can do, they know they've lost the narrative when it comes to the international community which is why they're unashamedly doubling down, I mean do you blame them? It's not as if there's going to be any blowback.

 

[Denis79]

Oren absolutely nailed it. Word by word.

Nah he didn't. Utter drivel.