Jadon Sancho image 25

Jadon Sancho England flag

2021-22 Performances


View full 2021-22 profile

5.6 Season Average Rating
Appearances
38
Goals
5
Assists
3
Yellow cards
0
Status
Not open for further replies.

theyneverlearn

and this one probably never will
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
5,682
Location
In Coleen's Womb
Was at the game and a lot of the fans were turning on him around me.

I thought he looked ok, just couldn’t get anything going with Telles, Mata or Martial. Looked better when he had better players around him.
 

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
96,171
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
I'm willing to wait till next season tbh. Some players take a long while to adapt and some don't so it's pointless to make quick conclusions at the moment.
It sure is frustrating to not see him perform better
 

The Uncle of All Uncles

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 11, 2018
Messages
70
I won't lie, it's a little worrying how poor he's been so far. I have to admit, I thought we'd signed someone for the right wing that could get to the byline and whip in a cross or, better yet, cut it back towards the penalty spot. Hopefully that's part of his game in a way, as the very lack of it has been an issue at Utd for years.

The similarities in his game with Juan Mata as posted earlier in the thread are more cause for concern, as I feel Mata (whilst a technically strong player) was always a poor fit at Utd and would've been better off elsewhere. If the plan was to sign a younger version of Mata then I don't know what to make of it.
 

simplyared

Full Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
4,392
Location
somewhere ouside the UK
I think there are three issues here :

- NGL, he is a bit overrated. He's a great talent, but all the generation talent thing was just fans going overboard. Right now he is not better than Greenwood, Rashford, Grealish, Sterling, Foden etc.

- People just expected a different player. Some thought he was an explosive touchline hugging winger, a Sadio Mane type, and that's just wrong.

- He is a top talent, I have no doubt about it. But he needs to adapt to the PL and our style of play. Bundesliga is just a notch or two below PL imo. I dont think he will ever be a 20G+20A player, probably more of a 10G+10A type player. But he's the type of player you cant just boil down to stats.

He might never end up being a 70M player, but that doesnt mean he is shit. People just need to adjust their expectations and give him some time.
Good post!
 

lex talionis

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
14,096
I’m actually encouraged by what Sancho has shown us so far. As a squad we really haven’t gelled yet. Southampton and Wolves weren’t that long ago, YB punked us and the embers after two jammy matches against West Ham are still burning.

That said, Greenwood and Ronaldo have been outstanding and it’s not hard to imagine Rashford hitting top gear once he’s unleashed. We may see out 72m signing become a super sub for us, although we all knew this was a possibility once we unexpectedly signed Ronaldo.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
27,201
Location
...
I must say I had scepticism about doing this deal, which I voiced here throughout the summer. It just didn’t make the most amount of sense to me. Don’t get me wrong, I am a fan of the player, and he will probably come good eventually. But him coming good may come at the expense of others already here coming good.

I questioned the merit of signing a 21 year old ‘right winger’ to ‘compete’ with the 19 year old one we signed 6 months earlier. Not to mention the other teenager in Mason Greenwood who also plays on the right. But many said that he is already the finished article etc. I thought that after signing Amad for a not insignificant amount, we should be looking at a 27-31 year old RW if the issue was Amad not being ready. I saw no point in having 3 developing players competing for the right. And that’s even before the obvious question of whether Sancho is a right winger at all, which I maintain he is not. When Rashford returns, he will likely become the cameo player that Amad at 19 going on 20 should really be, while Amad himself will then ‘compete’ for heaven knows - back up to the back up. Just smacks of poor planning.

I think the team would have been better served spending 75m on Declan Rice, having Greenwood and Amad share the RW spot, and Cavani through the middle (I say Cavani as we didn’t have Ronaldo in our thinking when we signed Sancho). Sancho is not ready to come in and be amazing immediately. By the time we spend 18 months hoping he does, Amad at 20/21 could have probably become just as good with the same investment in time. Not to mention far better suited to actually playing RW. It’s one thing to say Amad isn’t ready and replace him with someone who is, and another to say he isn’t ready and then bring in an alternative who also requires time and development.
 

Zehner

Football Statistics Dork
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
8,137
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
Bailey is fast, Sancho is kind of slow.. Bailey’s style is much more suited to the Premier League with Villa’s counters and so on. Not comparing the two at all, but yeah, it would have been great if Sancho was a bit speedier to be honest. He’s not going to play Düsseldorf and Mainz or whatever they’re called in England.
If Bailey is playing better than Jadon Sancho, some things have to be questioned. He's better than Bailey in everything bar pace and maybe strength. His style should fit much, much better to top teams that dominate their opponents most of the time.
 

VinzentFTW

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 28, 2021
Messages
814
Supports
Liverpool
I must say I had scepticism about doing this deal, which I voiced here throughout the summer. It just didn’t make the most amount of sense to me. Don’t get me wrong, I am a fan of the player, and he will probably come good eventually. But him coming good may come at the expense of others already here coming good.

I questioned the merit of signing a 21 year old ‘right winger’ to ‘compete’ with the 19 year old one we signed 6 months earlier. Not to mention the other teenager in Mason Greenwood who also plays on the right. But many said that he is already the finished article etc. I thought that after signing Amad for a not insignificant amount, we should be looking at a 27-31 year old RW if the issue was Amad not being ready. I saw no point in having 3 developing players competing for the right. And that’s even before the obvious question of whether Sancho is a right winger at all, which I maintain he is not. When Rashford returns, he will likely become the cameo player that Amad at 19 going on 20 should really be, while Amad himself will then ‘compete’ for heaven knows - back up to the back up. Just smacks of poor planning.

I think the team would have been better served spending 75m on Declan Rice, having Greenwood and Amad share the RW spot, and Cavani through the middle (I say Cavani as we didn’t have Ronaldo in our thinking when we signed Sancho). Sancho is not ready to come in and be amazing immediately. By the time we spend 18 months hoping he does, Amad at 20/21 could have probably become just as good with the same investment in time. Not to mention far better suited to actually playing RW. It’s one thing to say Amad isn’t ready and replace him with someone who is, and another to say he isn’t ready and then bring in an alternative who also requires time and development.
Spot on, but i prefer Bissouma though. I rate Rice but his price is ridiculous. For the Sancho money we could have gone for Bissouma and Trippier, and prioritized Sancho next summer for around 50 mill if we wanted to. Our team would have been complete this summer as well then.
 

kirk buttercup

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2016
Messages
2,484
Location
wickla!
I think there are three issues here :

- NGL, he is a bit overrated. He's a great talent, but all the generation talent thing was just fans going overboard. Right now he is not better than Greenwood, Rashford, Grealish, Sterling, Foden etc.

- People just expected a different player. Some thought he was an explosive touchline hugging winger, a Sadio Mane type, and that's just wrong.

- He is a top talent, I have no doubt about it. But he needs to adapt to the PL and our style of play. Bundesliga is just a notch or two below PL imo. I dont think he will ever be a 20G+20A player, probably more of a 10G+10A type player. But he's the type of player you cant just boil down to stats.

He might never end up being a 70M player, but that doesnt mean he is shit. People just need to adjust their expectations and give him some time.
Spot on . Good post
 

Stacks

Full Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
10,905
Location
Between a rock and Gibraltar
He came from a team that was extremely well drilled, where players were moving off the ball, creating space for him, playing one twos etc. Our football is far more rudimentary. I think he will struggle until he hopefully adapts. I wouldn't be surprised if he does though, far too talented not to succeed.
He played under Peter Bosz and the great Lucian Favre
 

stefan92

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2021
Messages
6,523
Supports
Hannover 96
He played under Peter Bosz and the great Lucian Favre
Don't forget Edin Terzic' first and possibly only job as head coach.

Still the point is valid, Sancho worked best with players around him who he knew and who he could combine with. He is an excellent playmaker, but he never was and never will be someone who decides games just on his own by beating opposition players.
 

Stacks

Full Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
10,905
Location
Between a rock and Gibraltar
I must say I had scepticism about doing this deal, which I voiced here throughout the summer. It just didn’t make the most amount of sense to me. Don’t get me wrong, I am a fan of the player, and he will probably come good eventually. But him coming good may come at the expense of others already here coming good.

I questioned the merit of signing a 21 year old ‘right winger’ to ‘compete’ with the 19 year old one we signed 6 months earlier. Not to mention the other teenager in Mason Greenwood who also plays on the right. But many said that he is already the finished article etc. I thought that after signing Amad for a not insignificant amount, we should be looking at a 27-31 year old RW if the issue was Amad not being ready. I saw no point in having 3 developing players competing for the right. And that’s even before the obvious question of whether Sancho is a right winger at all, which I maintain he is not. When Rashford returns, he will likely become the cameo player that Amad at 19 going on 20 should really be, while Amad himself will then ‘compete’ for heaven knows - back up to the back up. Just smacks of poor planning.

I think the team would have been better served spending 75m on Declan Rice, having Greenwood and Amad share the RW spot, and Cavani through the middle (I say Cavani as we didn’t have Ronaldo in our thinking when we signed Sancho). Sancho is not ready to come in and be amazing immediately. By the time we spend 18 months hoping he does, Amad at 20/21 could have probably become just as good with the same investment in time. Not to mention far better suited to actually playing RW. It’s one thing to say Amad isn’t ready and replace him with someone who is, and another to say he isn’t ready and then bring in an alternative who also requires time and development.
I can confirm this is true because you sort of swayed me at the time. You mentioned Greenwood's emergence lessening the need for a RW and that we should focus on other areas. I think you also questioned whether Jadon will be such an upgrade as Mason was coming on nicely and showing he can score at this level
 

SplitzMagic

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
329
Location
M16
I would rather the slow start if he comes good rather than a fast start and slow painful death like Martial.
 

Rash Decision

not to use the cream
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Messages
1,525
Location
In your closet, in your head!
People think Rashford returning will suddenly mean Sancho is forever benched but in reality Rashford will take a few weeks to gain match fitness and sharpness and this forum's ire/disappointment will be transferred to him instead.
They both have different qualities and in theory there are enough games for both of them.

Rashford will get his share of ire regardless because he’s not a silky player who looks consistently smooth. He’ll make mistakes, try things that won’t come off, have bad games here and there, and people will argue that he’s an average player whose productivity doesn’t compensate for his flaws.
 

fergieisold

New Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
7,122
Location
Saddleworth (home) Manchester (work)
He hasn't been terrible, just a slow start and learning to link better with the team. He's shown some nice stuff, maybe could have scored a couple already with a bit more luck. I'd say he needs playing and I'd be tempted to start him again on Saturday.

Martial however...can pack his bags.
 

mav_9me

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Messages
12,487
If Bailey is playing better than Jadon Sancho, some things have to be questioned. He's better than Bailey in everything bar pace and maybe strength. His style should fit much, much better to top teams that dominate their opponents most of the time.
Not surprised if Bailey is playing better than Sancho. That's just a reflection of the type of defenses they face. Bailey with his pace on the counter can be devastating but he would be similar to Sancho for us, if he played for us against park the bus defenses.

Not to excuse Sancho, he needs to do better, that's obvious. But I have full faith in him. I think he needs time to settle with a new team/players in a new league.
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
29,893
Location
England
I must say I had scepticism about doing this deal, which I voiced here throughout the summer. It just didn’t make the most amount of sense to me. Don’t get me wrong, I am a fan of the player, and he will probably come good eventually. But him coming good may come at the expense of others already here coming good.

I questioned the merit of signing a 21 year old ‘right winger’ to ‘compete’ with the 19 year old one we signed 6 months earlier. Not to mention the other teenager in Mason Greenwood who also plays on the right. But many said that he is already the finished article etc. I thought that after signing Amad for a not insignificant amount, we should be looking at a 27-31 year old RW if the issue was Amad not being ready. I saw no point in having 3 developing players competing for the right. And that’s even before the obvious question of whether Sancho is a right winger at all, which I maintain he is not. When Rashford returns, he will likely become the cameo player that Amad at 19 going on 20 should really be, while Amad himself will then ‘compete’ for heaven knows - back up to the back up. Just smacks of poor planning.

I think the team would have been better served spending 75m on Declan Rice, having Greenwood and Amad share the RW spot, and Cavani through the middle (I say Cavani as we didn’t have Ronaldo in our thinking when we signed Sancho). Sancho is not ready to come in and be amazing immediately. By the time we spend 18 months hoping he does, Amad at 20/21 could have probably become just as good with the same investment in time. Not to mention far better suited to actually playing RW. It’s one thing to say Amad isn’t ready and replace him with someone who is, and another to say he isn’t ready and then bring in an alternative who also requires time and development.
I agree with you and said the same at the time. Amad Diallo is a natural for that right side and should've been give the opportunity to grow into the role and we should've instead put the money towards signing a midfielder or two along with a CB.

But I hope Sancho does come good but he's not a natural on the right side in the game today.
 

NewYorkRed

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 11, 2021
Messages
1,609
He's not a 75 million player. The parts of his game he is meant to be good at turns out he's not very good at.

Looks like Dortmund have played a blinder.
Played a blinder by not selling a player for a higher price when they could have even though they knew he was a dud? Ya maybe try thinking before you type.

He’ll be fine. Looked good in parts yesterday, needs that first goal and a little time to adjust.
 

Teja

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
5,863
He's looked pretty good I thought, he showed in flashes what he was capable of. I think people's opinions are being influenced by the fact that we lost yesterday and he hasn't registered any goals / assists yet.
 

MattyB1986

Full Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
1,122
He played OK last night, showed a few nice bits of skill and intent. Hard to really go in on him when every time I saw him with the ball he had a 9 who couldn't be bothered to run.
 

Coops73

Full Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2013
Messages
3,340
He’ll be fine, seems a little nervous and playing within himself so as not to make a mistake but I saw a few glimpses of more confident passes and moves last night, I think he just needs game time, a goal maybe and his confidence will set him right, let’s not forget he’s just a kid still.
 

HailtotheKing

Full Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
1,015
Location
NYC
Am I right in thinking he's a notoriously slow starter? So, it stands to reason that he's going to be even slower when having to get used to a new team, playing style and league, no? The way we play and the way Dortmund plays are worlds apart. As is the Bundesliga vs Premier League. He will come good I'm sure. But I still question why we bought him (much as I wanted him) when we had Greenwood and Rashford, Martial, Lingard, Diallo, and even Elanga that can play in his positions. Surely, a CDM should have been the priority, even more so if we are gonna play Pogba on the left-wing. We really are and were stacked. Midfield was far more important. But ultimately, Jadon will come good and be an important player for us I think.
 

marktan

Full Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2017
Messages
6,942
Am I right in thinking he's a notoriously slow starter? So, it stands to reason that he's going to be even slower when having to get used to a new team, playing style and league, no? The way we play and the way Dortmund plays are worlds apart. As is the Bundesliga vs Premier League. He will come good I'm sure. But I still question why we bought him (much as I wanted him) when we had Greenwood and Rashford, Martial, Lingard, Diallo, and even Elanga that can play in his positions. Surely, a CDM should have been the priority, even more so if we are gonna play Pogba on the left-wing. We really are and were stacked. Midfield was far more important. But ultimately, Jadon will come good and be an important player for us I think.
I think we do still need a dribbling winger, someone that can beat a man and stretch play. Rashford's okay at it for us but he's not a very technical dribbler, he runs into his man a lot. It'd help us a lot against teams that sit back against us, which is most of the teams in the league.

Most other top teams have a player like this - Mane, Grealish, Mbappe, Neymar, and Bayern have loads of them. Unfortunately I don't Sancho will ever be that player for us, he lacks explosiveness in his dribble. As such it does beg the question as you say why we spent so much on him when we already have similar profiles of players.
 

Sphaero

Struggling to explain his genius to the hoi polloi
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
4,620
Location
Potsdam, Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
No, he came from Dortmund. Complete myth that that side where well-drilled and playing fantastic football. They played direct, counter attacking football very much like us, but in a way weaker league.
I love when people throw the term myth around only then to proceed to claim something that isn´t true either.

We have not been a counter attacking side for the vast majority of the time post Klopp. Being dangerous on the break does not make you a counter attacking side. Sancho spent most of his tenure in the first team under Lucien Favre, a coach that very clearly promoted patience and a possession and pass heavy approach, which is why Dortmund was under him in Europes highest group in terms of completed passes and amount of possession. It was not until Terzic took over that we turned towards a more reactive style (which has by now also been reverted under Rose).

Sanchos current struggles are a mixture of different factors: some of it comes down to running low on confidence, some of it is the transition to a more physical and faster paced (here less with the ball but against the ball) league, but the biggest one is the adaption towards a vastly different tactical setup.

Borussia Dortmund and Manchester United play very different brands of football.

For one, Dortmund is just a more offensive minded side in general. It pretty much always deploys more attack focused players than defensive ones, occasionally to their detriment as it favours scoring goals so much over preventing conceeding ones that poor conversion can lead to losses or draws that could be prevented otherwise.

The other different aspect that has been consistent for many years between Dortmund and United has been the amount and type of off the ball movement. This is very obvious to see when you watch both teams side by side and actually look what happens away from the ball. People always lament at the amount of space Bundesliga sides give to the opposition, but that is only half the truth as space is not only given but can also be taken.

Dortmunds FBs are constantly pushing high up, attempting runs behind the defensive lines, central midfielders interchange positons frequently and the entire offensive unit basically operates on positional fluidity, which is why they prefer offensive allrounders over clearcut wingers or CAMs. Sancho was very much a part of that which why IMO all these debates of left wing vs. right wing are pretty nonsensical as it would not be unusual for Sancho to switch between both sides and the center half a dozen times in a single game for Dortmund.

That type of fluidity has the primary focus to unsettle defenses by shaking up pairings, stretching lines and giving multiple options to pass and play at any given time. It has the obvious drawback that it needs a high level of coordination to prevent from losing its balance and not open up too much space between their own lines in the process. The moment their discipline drops a bit, their shape goes with it which is at best seen in their sometimes comically poor ability to manage larger leads and see them out over the time. It is an undoubtly risky approach to play.

Uniteds set up is far more traditional, stable and risk averse (some might argue too much so given the offensive firepower in the squad). There is a far bigger focus on positional discipline and keeping the shape of formation (the only player who really roams a lot is Paul Pogba) , which gives them a fair amount of balance and stability and with the right amount of intensity has the potential to really shut down opposition. It is on the other hand also fairly static sometimes downright rigid, with the biggest drawback of being very predictable, which has been consistent pretty much since the retirment of Ferguson and is in my eyes the biggest factor that holds United back despite the quality of the players as it results in an overreliance on individual brilliance.

This here is not a debate which team is "better drilled" or what approach is the superior one as both come with clear advantages and disadvantages. It showcases the stark differences in style, though, nearly two opposing ends of the spectrum, one being nearly chaotic vs. the other being very orderly.

What does that mean for Jadon Sancho? The kid needs time, plain and simple. He was brought up in one style and has now to adapt to a very different one and in a lot of situation he appears to be unsure how to move and behave. There are flashes of his sheer quality and talent shining through, though and he is actually too well rounded and skilled to not manage this transition. It might take a while and longer than many would like for him to truly click and gell with Uniteds system, though.
 

Desert Eagle

Punjabi Dude
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
17,283
I love when people throw the term myth around only then to proceed to claim something that isn´t true either.

We have not been a counter attacking side for the vast majority of the time post Klopp. Being dangerous on the break does not make you a counter attacking side. Sancho spent most of his tenure in the first team under Lucien Favre, a coach that very clearly promoted patience and a possession and pass heavy approach, which is why Dortmund was under him in Europes highest group in terms of completed passes and amount of possession. It was not until Terzic took over that we turned towards a more reactive style (which has by now also been reverted under Rose).

Sanchos current struggles are a mixture of different factors: some of it comes down to running low on confidence, some of it is the transition to a more physical and faster paced (here less with the ball but against the ball) league, but the biggest one is the adaption towards a vastly different tactical setup.

Borussia Dortmund and Manchester United play very different brands of football.

For one, Dortmund is just a more offensive minded side in general. It pretty much always deploys more attack focused players than defensive ones, occasionally to their detriment as it favours scoring goals so much over preventing conceeding ones that poor conversion can lead to losses or draws that could be prevented otherwise.

The other different aspect that has been consistent for many years between Dortmund and United has been the amount and type of off the ball movement. This is very obvious to see when you watch both teams side by side and actually look what happens away from the ball. People always lament at the amount of space Bundesliga sides give to the opposition, but that is only half the truth as space is not only given but can also be taken.

Dortmunds FBs are constantly pushing high up, attempting runs behind the defensive lines, central midfielders interchange positons frequently and the entire offensive unit basically operates on positional fluidity, which is why they prefer offensive allrounders over clearcut wingers or CAMs. Sancho was very much a part of that which why IMO all these debates of left wing vs. right wing are pretty nonsensical as it would not be unusual for Sancho to switch between both sides and the center half a dozen times in a single game for Dortmund.

That type of fluidity has the primary focus to unsettle defenses by shaking up pairings, stretching lines and giving multiple options to pass and play at any given time. It has the obvious drawback that it needs a high level of coordination to prevent from losing its balance and not open up too much space between their own lines in the process. The moment their discipline drops a bit, their shape goes with it which is at best seen in their sometimes comically poor ability to manage larger leads and see them out over the time. It is an undoubtly risky approach to play.

Uniteds set up is far more traditional, stable and risk averse (some might argue too much so given the offensive firepower in the squad). There is a far bigger focus on positional discipline and keeping the shape of formation (the only player who really roams a lot is Paul Pogba) , which gives them a fair amount of balance and stability and with the right amount of intensity has the potential to really shut down opposition. It is on the other hand also fairly static sometimes downright rigid, with the biggest drawback of being very predictable, which has been consistent pretty much since the retirment of Ferguson and is in my eyes the biggest factor that holds United back despite the quality of the players as it results in an overreliance on individual brilliance.

This here is not a debate which team is "better drilled" or what approach is the superior one as both come with clear advantages and disadvantages. It showcases the stark differences in style, though, nearly two opposing ends of the spectrum, one being nearly chaotic vs. the other being very orderly.

What does that mean for Jadon Sancho? The kid needs time, plain and simple. He was brought up in one style and has now to adapt to a very different one and in a lot of situation he appears to be unsure how to move and behave. There are flashes of his sheer quality and talent shining through, though and he is actually too well rounded and skilled to not manage this transition. It might take a while and longer than many would like for him to truly click and gell with Uniteds system, though.
Good post. Appreciated and agree
 

Adnan

Talent Spotter
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
29,893
Location
England
I love when people throw the term myth around only then to proceed to claim something that isn´t true either.

We have not been a counter attacking side for the vast majority of the time post Klopp. Being dangerous on the break does not make you a counter attacking side. Sancho spent most of his tenure in the first team under Lucien Favre, a coach that very clearly promoted patience and a possession and pass heavy approach, which is why Dortmund was under him in Europes highest group in terms of completed passes and amount of possession. It was not until Terzic took over that we turned towards a more reactive style (which has by now also been reverted under Rose).

Sanchos current struggles are a mixture of different factors: some of it comes down to running low on confidence, some of it is the transition to a more physical and faster paced (here less with the ball but against the ball) league, but the biggest one is the adaption towards a vastly different tactical setup.

Borussia Dortmund and Manchester United play very different brands of football.

For one, Dortmund is just a more offensive minded side in general. It pretty much always deploys more attack focused players than defensive ones, occasionally to their detriment as it favours scoring goals so much over preventing conceeding ones that poor conversion can lead to losses or draws that could be prevented otherwise.

The other different aspect that has been consistent for many years between Dortmund and United has been the amount and type of off the ball movement. This is very obvious to see when you watch both teams side by side and actually look what happens away from the ball. People always lament at the amount of space Bundesliga sides give to the opposition, but that is only half the truth as space is not only given but can also be taken.

Dortmunds FBs are constantly pushing high up, attempting runs behind the defensive lines, central midfielders interchange positons frequently and the entire offensive unit basically operates on positional fluidity, which is why they prefer offensive allrounders over clearcut wingers or CAMs. Sancho was very much a part of that which why IMO all these debates of left wing vs. right wing are pretty nonsensical as it would not be unusual for Sancho to switch between both sides and the center half a dozen times in a single game for Dortmund.

That type of fluidity has the primary focus to unsettle defenses by shaking up pairings, stretching lines and giving multiple options to pass and play at any given time. It has the obvious drawback that it needs a high level of coordination to prevent from losing its balance and not open up too much space between their own lines in the process. The moment their discipline drops a bit, their shape goes with it which is at best seen in their sometimes comically poor ability to manage larger leads and see them out over the time. It is an undoubtly risky approach to play.

Uniteds set up is far more traditional, stable and risk averse (some might argue too much so given the offensive firepower in the squad). There is a far bigger focus on positional discipline and keeping the shape of formation (the only player who really roams a lot is Paul Pogba) , which gives them a fair amount of balance and stability and with the right amount of intensity has the potential to really shut down opposition. It is on the other hand also fairly static sometimes downright rigid, with the biggest drawback of being very predictable, which has been consistent pretty much since the retirment of Ferguson and is in my eyes the biggest factor that holds United back despite the quality of the players as it results in an overreliance on individual brilliance.

This here is not a debate which team is "better drilled" or what approach is the superior one as both come with clear advantages and disadvantages. It showcases the stark differences in style, though, nearly two opposing ends of the spectrum, one being nearly chaotic vs. the other being very orderly.

What does that mean for Jadon Sancho? The kid needs time, plain and simple. He was brought up in one style and has now to adapt to a very different one and in a lot of situation he appears to be unsure how to move and behave. There are flashes of his sheer quality and talent shining through, though and he is actually too well rounded and skilled to not manage this transition. It might take a while and longer than many would like for him to truly click and gell with Uniteds system, though.
Good post.

We don't play like you guys and that was repeated many times during the summer and my previous response to one of your posts during the summer was about the stylistical differences if you remember.. And like you say, Sancho played under a coach who adopted a style of play which favoured controlling the game via possession which meant offensive transitions involved multiple players which created many passing options. But most importantly what I said to you at the time was that your midfielders were of a higher technical level than ours (Fred and McTominay) and your RB was superior in offensive transition in comparison to Wan Bissaka who is weak in the build up phase. Add all that up with a clear template of play and it's not a surprise to me that what I predicted in the summer is unfolding in front of our eyes.

Our approach to the game relies on getting the ball forward quickly to the forwards with two work horses in midfield. If our current squad was under a head coach who favoured possession play then I have no doubt the likes of Donny Van de Beek would've featured a lot more and we'd probably be playing Pogba in a 3 man midfield imo.
 

mu4c_20le

Full Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
43,976
I love when people throw the term myth around only then to proceed to claim something that isn´t true either.

We have not been a counter attacking side for the vast majority of the time post Klopp. Being dangerous on the break does not make you a counter attacking side. Sancho spent most of his tenure in the first team under Lucien Favre, a coach that very clearly promoted patience and a possession and pass heavy approach, which is why Dortmund was under him in Europes highest group in terms of completed passes and amount of possession. It was not until Terzic took over that we turned towards a more reactive style (which has by now also been reverted under Rose).

Sanchos current struggles are a mixture of different factors: some of it comes down to running low on confidence, some of it is the transition to a more physical and faster paced (here less with the ball but against the ball) league, but the biggest one is the adaption towards a vastly different tactical setup.

Borussia Dortmund and Manchester United play very different brands of football.

For one, Dortmund is just a more offensive minded side in general. It pretty much always deploys more attack focused players than defensive ones, occasionally to their detriment as it favours scoring goals so much over preventing conceeding ones that poor conversion can lead to losses or draws that could be prevented otherwise.

The other different aspect that has been consistent for many years between Dortmund and United has been the amount and type of off the ball movement. This is very obvious to see when you watch both teams side by side and actually look what happens away from the ball. People always lament at the amount of space Bundesliga sides give to the opposition, but that is only half the truth as space is not only given but can also be taken.

Dortmunds FBs are constantly pushing high up, attempting runs behind the defensive lines, central midfielders interchange positons frequently and the entire offensive unit basically operates on positional fluidity, which is why they prefer offensive allrounders over clearcut wingers or CAMs. Sancho was very much a part of that which why IMO all these debates of left wing vs. right wing are pretty nonsensical as it would not be unusual for Sancho to switch between both sides and the center half a dozen times in a single game for Dortmund.

That type of fluidity has the primary focus to unsettle defenses by shaking up pairings, stretching lines and giving multiple options to pass and play at any given time. It has the obvious drawback that it needs a high level of coordination to prevent from losing its balance and not open up too much space between their own lines in the process. The moment their discipline drops a bit, their shape goes with it which is at best seen in their sometimes comically poor ability to manage larger leads and see them out over the time. It is an undoubtly risky approach to play.

Uniteds set up is far more traditional, stable and risk averse (some might argue too much so given the offensive firepower in the squad). There is a far bigger focus on positional discipline and keeping the shape of formation (the only player who really roams a lot is Paul Pogba) , which gives them a fair amount of balance and stability and with the right amount of intensity has the potential to really shut down opposition. It is on the other hand also fairly static sometimes downright rigid, with the biggest drawback of being very predictable, which has been consistent pretty much since the retirment of Ferguson and is in my eyes the biggest factor that holds United back despite the quality of the players as it results in an overreliance on individual brilliance.

This here is not a debate which team is "better drilled" or what approach is the superior one as both come with clear advantages and disadvantages. It showcases the stark differences in style, though, nearly two opposing ends of the spectrum, one being nearly chaotic vs. the other being very orderly.

What does that mean for Jadon Sancho? The kid needs time, plain and simple. He was brought up in one style and has now to adapt to a very different one and in a lot of situation he appears to be unsure how to move and behave. There are flashes of his sheer quality and talent shining through, though and he is actually too well rounded and skilled to not manage this transition. It might take a while and longer than many would like for him to truly click and gell with Uniteds system, though.
You clearly don't watch us if you think our fullbacks are risk averse. The amount of space you get when playing an English team is different, which is why you got shut down the last time you faced one.
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,770
Uniteds set up is far more traditional, stable and risk averse (some might argue too much so given the offensive firepower in the squad). There is a far bigger focus on positional discipline and keeping the shape of formation (the only player who really roams a lot is Paul Pogba) , which gives them a fair amount of balance and stability and with the right amount of intensity has the potential to really shut down opposition. It is on the other hand also fairly static sometimes downright rigid, with the biggest drawback of being very predictable, which has been consistent pretty much since the retirment of Ferguson and is in my eyes the biggest factor that holds United back despite the quality of the players as it results in an overreliance on individual brilliance.
United set up is not risk averse and also it's not only Pogba who as positional freedom. Every attacking player has that also our CMs who keeps making forward runs. We struggle with positional discipline which might be because we are not well drilled team.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
95,792
Location
india
I love when people throw the term myth around only then to proceed to claim something that isn´t true either.

We have not been a counter attacking side for the vast majority of the time post Klopp. Being dangerous on the break does not make you a counter attacking side. Sancho spent most of his tenure in the first team under Lucien Favre, a coach that very clearly promoted patience and a possession and pass heavy approach, which is why Dortmund was under him in Europes highest group in terms of completed passes and amount of possession. It was not until Terzic took over that we turned towards a more reactive style (which has by now also been reverted under Rose).

Sanchos current struggles are a mixture of different factors: some of it comes down to running low on confidence, some of it is the transition to a more physical and faster paced (here less with the ball but against the ball) league, but the biggest one is the adaption towards a vastly different tactical setup.

Borussia Dortmund and Manchester United play very different brands of football.

For one, Dortmund is just a more offensive minded side in general. It pretty much always deploys more attack focused players than defensive ones, occasionally to their detriment as it favours scoring goals so much over preventing conceeding ones that poor conversion can lead to losses or draws that could be prevented otherwise.

The other different aspect that has been consistent for many years between Dortmund and United has been the amount and type of off the ball movement. This is very obvious to see when you watch both teams side by side and actually look what happens away from the ball. People always lament at the amount of space Bundesliga sides give to the opposition, but that is only half the truth as space is not only given but can also be taken.

Dortmunds FBs are constantly pushing high up, attempting runs behind the defensive lines, central midfielders interchange positons frequently and the entire offensive unit basically operates on positional fluidity, which is why they prefer offensive allrounders over clearcut wingers or CAMs. Sancho was very much a part of that which why IMO all these debates of left wing vs. right wing are pretty nonsensical as it would not be unusual for Sancho to switch between both sides and the center half a dozen times in a single game for Dortmund.

That type of fluidity has the primary focus to unsettle defenses by shaking up pairings, stretching lines and giving multiple options to pass and play at any given time. It has the obvious drawback that it needs a high level of coordination to prevent from losing its balance and not open up too much space between their own lines in the process. The moment their discipline drops a bit, their shape goes with it which is at best seen in their sometimes comically poor ability to manage larger leads and see them out over the time. It is an undoubtly risky approach to play.

Uniteds set up is far more traditional, stable and risk averse (some might argue too much so given the offensive firepower in the squad). There is a far bigger focus on positional discipline and keeping the shape of formation (the only player who really roams a lot is Paul Pogba) , which gives them a fair amount of balance and stability and with the right amount of intensity has the potential to really shut down opposition. It is on the other hand also fairly static sometimes downright rigid, with the biggest drawback of being very predictable, which has been consistent pretty much since the retirment of Ferguson and is in my eyes the biggest factor that holds United back despite the quality of the players as it results in an overreliance on individual brilliance.

This here is not a debate which team is "better drilled" or what approach is the superior one as both come with clear advantages and disadvantages. It showcases the stark differences in style, though, nearly two opposing ends of the spectrum, one being nearly chaotic vs. the other being very orderly.

What does that mean for Jadon Sancho? The kid needs time, plain and simple. He was brought up in one style and has now to adapt to a very different one and in a lot of situation he appears to be unsure how to move and behave. There are flashes of his sheer quality and talent shining through, though and he is actually too well rounded and skilled to not manage this transition. It might take a while and longer than many would like for him to truly click and gell with Uniteds system, though.
Good post, and I completely agree. To be fair, a few other posters have highlighted that a move to United would initially be tough for Sancho as our possession play is weak, and we rely more on pace, physicality and moments of brilliance rather than intricate football. But my thinking is that, eventually, whether under Ole (dont see it) or under someone else (hopefully soon), we have to become a more possession oriented team and having a 22/23 year old Sancho would still be a huge asset in that system (as he will be in this one, eventually).
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,737
Location
Ireland
I think we do still need a dribbling winger, someone that can beat a man and stretch play. Rashford's okay at it for us but he's not a very technical dribbler, he runs into his man a lot. It'd help us a lot against teams that sit back against us, which is most of the teams in the league.

Most other top teams have a player like this - Mane, Grealish, Mbappe, Neymar, and Bayern have loads of them. Unfortunately I don't Sancho will ever be that player for us, he lacks explosiveness in his dribble. As such it does beg the question as you say why we spent so much on him when we already have similar profiles of players.
We don't have players of his profile at all, he's a playmaking winger, both Rashford and Greenwood are goal scorers more than anything. Amad is in a similar mould but we're not likely to see him in the first team until at least next season, if not longer.
 

Mainoldo

New Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2004
Messages
22,965
He’ll be alright once he stops being managed by Ole Gunnar Southgate or Ole Gareth Solskjaer.
 

izak

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
1,431
Supports
Glory Glory Red Devils
Look at what Pepe did with Grealish, just give him a run of games with the first team, hopefully he'll pick up.
 

roonster09

Hercule Poirot of the scouting world
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
36,770
We don't have players of his profile at all, he's a playmaking winger, both Rashford and Greenwood are goal scorers more than anything. Amad is in a similar mould but we're not likely to see him in the first team until at least next season, if not longer.
Exactly. Also Rashford is as explosive as any player out there, we don't have anyone with Sancho's profile.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,737
Location
Ireland
Exactly. Also Rashford is as explosive as any player out there, we don't have anyone with Sancho's profile.
Rashford when he's in top form can leave anyone for dead as well, he's a great dribbler when he's properly at it. Once Sancho settles, he'll be a huge asset to the goal scorers in the team.
 

UpWithRivers

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
3,662
Im sick and tired of United doing this to players. Why? We buy players and have no idea how to use them. Is he LW or RW? Surely we bought him for the RW. Then he just doesnt suit our style of play. I hope he doesnt end up like Pogba, 5 years of figuring out if he is a double pivot or LW when everyone always knew he is best in a 3. Or Martial who is not a number 9. Or Mata who is not a RW. Or Lingard who is not a RW or LW. The list goes on and on. Is everyone in our team supposed to be a John Oshea?
 

jesperjaap

Full Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
5,745
He is very young and despite beign English lets not forget this is his first taste of premiership football.

Most importantly he has just come to one of the biggest clubs in the world for a big fee.

We are only 3/4games in, lets have a little patience. There are no guarantees any player will make it here. We have seen lots of hugely talented players fail in the shirt, but peopl edoubting and turning on him already is crazy.

I saw Paul Ince having a go saying they should just play football instead of trying to keep taking players on and do all the flicks etc. I loved Ince as a player but he is a woeful pundit in my opinion. I have thought the opposite watchign him so far. He looks nervous and like he is trying to hard and actuallly often playing things simple through fear of messing up. He should relac and play his game, the few occasions he has tried the flick or runs, have neen 50/50 success rate but partly just not got the run of the green.

I am confident he will come good and become a starting winger in time and people mentioning Greenwood, I do feel we should be thinking of him as a striker even though opportunities are harder for him at the moment.

I do however agree wit other posters saying buying a central midfielder would have been a better option. It was more of a priority for me for this summer and we did already have good options on ther wing though inexperienced. We dont in central midfield
 

NK86

Full Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
10,402
Seems a bit subdued. Maybe needs a goal to allow him to express himself more. Has shower glimpses of his talent. Also clearly seems to not be at the same wavelength as some of our other attackers which breaks down our attacks.

Have high hopes he will come good soon.
 

captaincantona

Full Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
1,609
Rashford when he's in top form can leave anyone for dead as well, he's a great dribbler when he's properly at it. Once Sancho settles, he'll be a huge asset to the goal scorers in the team.
One of the benefits of buying a right winger was to provide a more equal threat on both sides.We relied a lot in Shaw and an unfit Rashford last season down the left. Carried less threat from the right. Excuses were made for Wan Bissaka saying he had no one permanent out right to build an understanding With. With Varane as a more secure option at right centre half, we could start seeing moreof Wan Bissaka going forward and combining with Sancho.

So far this season, Sancho being out left, Shaw has been very poor going forward and not really given Sancho any quality, consistent option. I believe a good understanding with both full backs playing higher up will be central to getting the best out of Sancho.

The risk is that as a team we are just not a great fit for less powerful, more intricate attackers.It was clear from his time at Dortmund that Sancho was a wide forward, comfortable on both flanks in a system which allowed him to cut inside and have options or have an overlapping full back more often than not to play combinations with. Like VDB and Mata and Kagawa and Mhikitaryn and Gomes...he needs movement around him to see the best of his game. None of these players flourished at Man Utd. While Greenwood has movement, control in tight spaces And the ability to interchange positionally, he is also dynamic and capable of driving at players- it is this aspect of Greenwood we see more often than not as being his central quality for Utd-along with his finishing.

I can’t help but feel like we shouldn’t be expecting him to replicate his types of performances/contributions in Dortmund in our team. But that’s not to say he won’t become effective for us in our style of play. I also fear he does not have the game changing ability of Bruno/Ronaldo/Greenwood/Rashford that will make him immediately recognisable as being good value for money. This one might be a slow burner.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.