Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

[Iker Quesadillas]

Well yes, it 100% can be. The expectation at the start of the season was, we'll bring in young players who can develop here as a group and build to challenge for the top 4 in a year or two.

I think the problem is that this is a ridiculously low expectation. Up to two years to challenge for the top 4? After Arteta had already managed for a year and a half?

 

[MO_Football92]

Football fans have very short-term memories, we should all go to the doctors for a check-up!

Prior to the season United had one of the best attacks in European football and were nailed on for a title challenge, or so I saw here. Now apparently the entire/most of their team is garbage and are Conference league level.

No one in their right mind, including every arsenal fan (except probably Ty) had Arsenal anywhere near involved a top 4 race. It was out of the question.

Yes Arteta has spent a lot of money, but he spent it on a lot of young, inexperienced players with a view of challenging in a few years. Very rarely do you see loads of players be brought in and make an impact in their first year, let alone a newly gelling team full of kids. What they’re doing in their first season is remarkable stuff and top 4 would be a huge achievement for the players and manager, who is also young and inexperienced. Very exciting time to be an arsenal fan!

If you look at the stats from December last season, we were performing like a top four team. Also we only finisned 4 points off 4th despite the bad start last year. Given the additional outlay in the summer, it wouldn't have been outlandish to suggest Arsenal could finish in a champion's league position at the start of the season.

 

[Nish115]

I think the problem is that this is a ridiculously low expectation. Up to two years to challenge for the top 4? After Arteta had already managed for a year and a half?

Is it? Liverpool and City are and were miles clear.

Chelsea and United had two of the strongest squads in the world (on paper) going into the season, having spent probably 50% more money than us when you factor in wages on Ronaldo etc.

You have to be realistic, and the fact is everyone on here said we'd be finishing 8th at the start of the season.

We went through the period of trying to get success quickly with older signings on big wages, it didn't work. And it also hasn't worked for United. Now we are trying something different which is a slower process, with hopefully more sustainable growth and rewards, a little like Liverpool did. Maybe it'll work, maybe not but we'll see.

 

[GoonerBear]

I think the problem is that this is a ridiculously low expectation. Up to two years to challenge for the top 4? After Arteta had already managed for a year and a half?

To be honest, i think it was the optics of the situation. We have 2 of the best coaches with the best teams in the world occupying 1 & 2. We have the current European & World Champions in behind them. And we had a Utd side that just finished 2nd signing 2 genuine world class players in Varane & Ronaldo & a winger who was seen as 1 of England's greatest talents already.

Top 4 was thought of as being sewn up really, it was just the order that was needing sorted. If as a club you are demanding top 4 straight away, you don't go out & sign players like Ramsdale, White & Tomiyasu. You might see that as lowering expectation, & it was, but that was the reality of the situation.

 

[Tarrou]

He’s been there over two years and the expectation is what? Finish top 6? No wonder some Arsenal fans are happy with him then!

 

[GoonerBear]

He’s been there over two years and the expectation is what? Finish top 6? No wonder some Arsenal fans are happy with him then!

Be interesting to see how patient you guys will be with ETH considering I keep hearing that a complete clear out & culture change is needed.

 

[Nish115]

He’s been there over two years and the expectation is what? Finish top 6? No wonder some Arsenal fans are happy with him then!

This is just mad tbh. What was every Uniteds fans expectation of us this season? 8th, I think was the average position.

But, suddenly Arsenal fans should be expecting top 4 just because the season has turned out differently?

Besides, he's been here 1 full season before this one.

 

[The Corinthian]

This is just mad tbh. What was every Uniteds fans expectation of us this season? 8th, I think was the average position.

But, suddenly Arsenal fans should be expecting top 4 just because the season has turned out differently?

Besides, he's been here 1 full season before this one.

Why would it matter what United fans expectations were?

 

[Nish115]

Why would it matter what United fans expectations were?

Because i'm talking to mostly United fans on here?

Before the season, Liverpool, City, Chelsea, United, Spurs all had better squads than us. And according to almost all of you, also had better managers.

But, apparently Arsenal fans are pathetic for being happy expecting a top 6 finish, whilst at the same time Arteta is still a rubbish manager, and also a load of our players are overrated and our squad depth is paper thin and poor? There is just no logic to any of these points.

My opinion is that Arteta currently is an average manager, but he's showing growth and is learning on the job still, and can become a better one with more experience. Our squad is quite poor beyond 13-14 players, which could cost us, but we have quite a few players who I do like and are quite promising. This is the first step for me. A top 4 finish would be great, but I wouldn't be disappointed with 5 all things considered, and you have to be realistic.

I'm hoping either way next year we continue selling some of our players who aren't upto it, which aren't a load now, and build with 3-4 more players of quality. It's a process, it won't be achieved in 1 season. The hope is after 3-4 seasons we can compete towards the top end of the table, but for that we need signings of quality, and also for Mikel and the younger players to develop more.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

We went through the period of trying to get success quickly with older signings on big wages, it didn't work. And it also hasn't worked for United.

It is simply not the case that the only options are to assemble an under-23 squad or buy older players on big wages. It's a false dichotomy.

 

[GoonerBear]

It is simply not the case that the only options are to assemble an under-23 squad or buy older players on big wages. It's a false dichotomy.

We won't be signing a load of U23 this summer. I believe we'll target guys more in the 23-26 age, & will target guys with EPL experience. Think the likes of Jesus, Calvert-Lewin, Luiz, Neves, Bissouma will be those types (obviously not all of them).

 

[Tarrou]

This is just mad tbh. What was every Uniteds fans expectation of us this season? 8th, I think was the average position.

But, suddenly Arsenal fans should be expecting top 4 just because the season has turned out differently?

Besides, he's been here 1 full season before this one.

i expect you to finish about top 6, but only because Arteta is shit

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

To be honest, i think it was the optics of the situation. We have 2 of the best coaches with the best teams in the world occupying 1 & 2. We have the current European & World Champions in behind them. And we had a Utd side that just finished 2nd signing 2 genuine world class players in Varane & Ronaldo & a winger who was seen as 1 of England's greatest talents already.

We're probably just arguing semantics. For me, a team can challenge for top 4 even if in the end they finish 6-8 points behind or whatever, it just depends on how the whole season goes. When I hear Arsenal weren't expected to challenge for two years I hear "in two years they might have finished 6 points behind 4th" which strikes me as far too permissive.

 

[FootballHQ]

He’s been there over two years and the expectation is what? Finish top 6? No wonder some Arsenal fans are happy with him then!

Top 4. A position they haven't finished in since May 2016 so not like they've only been out of CL for a year or two. Wenger wasn't finishing in those places in his final two seasons.

They'll never seriously challenge for the league under his tenure though, that's quite clear although can't see any manager who could get Arsenal in the mix, they're miles off these days so smaller expectations.

 

[GoonerBear]

We're probably just arguing semantics. For me, a team can challenge for top 4 even if in the end they finish 6-8 points behind or whatever, it just depends on how the whole season goes. When I hear Arsenal weren't expected to challenge for two years I hear "in two years they might have finished 6 points behind 4th" which strikes me as far too permissive.

Yeah, I get that. I've been thinking of the season targets differently if you go back to my old posts, & had many a discussion on here, especially with @Hansi Fick.

My gauge (as well as what I was seeing on the pitch) was to see an improvement in the points total. My thinking was that we got 61 points last season, I want to see an improvement and something around the 70 point mark would be that for me. In most years, that would qualify you for 4th, but if Utd had a better season for instance and we finished 5th 3 or 4 points behind them, I wouldn't rip up what we are doing to start again.

 

[WeePat]

I think it's natural to fall back on what the preseason expectations were, if you had a higher position than expected in your grasp and then potentially could let it slip. I was doing a lot of that during the run in when we barely scraped into 4th on the final day in 2020 when most people preseason predictions for us was 6th place. The truth is though, as the team performs better than expected during the season, expectations slightly adjust.

 

[GoonerBear]

I think it's natural to fall back on what the preseason expectations were, if you had a higher position than expected in your grasp and then potentially could let it slip. I was doing a lot of that during the run in when we barely scraped into 4th on the final day in 2020 when most people preseason predictions for us was 6th place. The truth is though, as the team performs better than expected during the season, expectations slightly adjust.

Of course that's true as well. But do you rip up a plan that you are working to if you don't meet the raised expectations? Should Leicester have sacked Rodgers for finishing outside the top 4 after having them in there for so long the previous seasons?

 

[Tarrou]

Of course that's true as well. But do you rip up a plan that you are working to if you don't meet the raised expectations? Should Leicester have sacked Rodgers for finishing outside the top 4 after having them in there for so long the previous seasons?

raised expectations is part of the job

Ole was expected to be top 4, until he wasn’t. This season the expectation was firmly a title challenge, and he couldn’t live up to it

Arteta will be expected to get top 4 next season surely? Otherwise what’s the point

 

[GoonerBear]

raised expectations is part of the job

Ole was expected to be top 4, until he wasn’t. This season the expectation was firmly a title challenge, and he couldn’t live up to it

Arteta will be expected to get top 4 next season surely? Otherwise what’s the point

I'd certainly want him to challenge for top 4. We could hit the 68-70 point mark this season. I'd want him to better that next with another summer window giving him a chance to refine the team even more in his image. I want to see that points total improve.

But, if Arteta does finish top 4 next season. It means 2 managers out of Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, Conte & Ten Hag doesn't. That's how stiff competition is now, & very shortly you can add Newcastle to to that list.

 

[SilentWitness]

He's doing the right things. He has a clear philosophy and he actually buys players to fit into that philosophy and gets rid of ones who aren't working out/are problematic. That has bitten him in the arse during the covid debacle but long term should prove fairly successful.

 

[SilentWitness]

I'd certainly want him to challenge for top 4. We could hit the 68-70 point mark this season. I'd want him to better that next with another summer window giving him a chance to refine the team even more in his image. I want to see that points total improve.

But, if Arteta does finish top 4 next season. It means 2 managers out of Pep, Klopp, Tuchel, Conte & Ten Hag doesn't. That's how stiff competition is now, & very shortly you can add Newcastle to to that list.

It's stiff competition but both Conte and Ten Hag need to rebuild their side. Arteta has already done that and it's now about adding the little bits on top to step forward. They should be a step ahead of both United and Spurs in that regard.

 

[WeePat]

Of course that's true as well. But do you rip up a plan that you are working to if you don't meet the raised expectations? Should Leicester have sacked Rodgers for finishing outside the top 4 after having them in there for so long the previous seasons?

No of course not, but it could be viewed as a mark against him if he has a higher position than originally expected in his grasp with the team in decent form, then to let it slip and as I fan I'd be bitterly disappointed in him. That doesn't mean you don't consider the overall context and how the team improved under his guidance and factor that into the final assessment.

I don't think Arsenal should sack Arteta if they don't get top 4. He's done enough to be trusted with more funds and see what he can do with European football added to the schedule and a team now moulded in his vision.

 

[Nish115]

It is simply not the case that the only options are to assemble an under-23 squad or buy older players on big wages. It's a false dichotomy.

No you're right, there's various ways for success. Spend huge money, get a world class manager, develop your own players, a mix of all 3.

We don't have the City/Madrid etc money, or the pull without CL, so it limits us, and honestly there's barely any world class coaches out there right now who can rebuild a team.

I think we've gone down the route of signing younger players who have time to grow and don't expect instant titles, because we have too much work to do for instant titles/success. Also, as i've said, Mikel isn't a finished product, he also will develop as time goes by. I think, and hope, the plan is to add to the group we have now with a mix of more experienced players and some younger guys.

 

[Nish115]

It's stiff competition but both Conte and Ten Hag need to rebuild their side. Arteta has already done that and it's now about adding the little bits on top to step forward. They should be a step ahead of both United and Spurs in that regard.

Yes and no, Arteta has done that, but realistically he's only spent 1 year doing so. So whilst we will be ahead, we won't be miles ahead. And if you balance the experience both those managers have, along with the finances they may/may not get, I think they won't be that far behind.

For Spurs though, there isn't a huge rebuild to be done tbh. I wouldn't say they have bad characters, but they just need to improve in certain areas which the coach prefers. For United, it's just really hard to tell what needs doing.

 

[SilentWitness]

Yes and no, Arteta has done that, but realistically he's only spent 1 year doing so. So whilst we will be ahead, we won't be miles ahead. And if you balance the experience both those managers have, along with the finances they may/may not get, I think they won't be that far behind.

For Spurs though, there isn't a huge rebuild to be done tbh. I wouldn't say they have bad characters, but they just need to improve in certain areas which the coach prefers. For United, it's just really hard to tell what needs doing.

Yeah, I think that's fair. Spurs is obviously less of a job than United but they still have a lot of issues to resolve whereas Arsenal don't have that many.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Talk about Arteta having already rebuilt the side seems premature when you consider that Arsenal will have no strikers by the end of June.

 

[Nish115]

I think it's natural to fall back on what the preseason expectations were, if you had a higher position than expected in your grasp and then potentially could let it slip. I was doing a lot of that during the run in when we barely scraped into 4th on the final day in 2020 when most people preseason predictions for us was 6th place. The truth is though, as the team performs better than expected during the season, expectations slightly adjust.

Yeah I do agree, but the expectations have adjusted slightly.

Before the start of the season, we didn't expect to challange for top 4, and I would have said a finish 6-7 would have been realistic, ideally top 6.

Now, I would say top 6 is the minimum, with a top 4 finish the top target. It's shifted slightly, but at the end of the day we still have a much worse squad than United/Spurs. So, what I don't understand is how comes it's okay to say that Spurs/United are just underperforming because of management, but then discredit Arteta for actually doing better than them with a worse squad.

 

[Nish115]

Yeah, I think that's fair. Spurs is obviously less of a job than United but they still have a lot of issues to resolve whereas Arsenal don't have that many.

Yh, I mean realistically I think we need to sign 3-4 players this summer. Equally though, how many do Spurs need? 1FB, 1CB, 1 creative player. Not much outside of that tbh?

Talk about Arteta having already rebuilt the side seems premature when you consider that Arsenal will have no strikers by the end of June.

Yh agree, this is 1 step forward, I think we still have 2 or 3 to go. Striker is a big one this summer, and CM and then a couple of depth options.

 

[MUnchies]

What no one seems to appreciate is we are a de-facto under 23's team. To qualify as an under 23's team you can have only three players above 23. White and Tierney turned 24 this year, but lets for arguments sake they are a few months younger. Pretty much all season we have had no more than three players over the age of 23 in the first team. Its normally been Lacazette, Xhaka and Partey. On the weekend it was Cedric, Elneny and Xhaka, but even still Cedric and Elneny are not leaders.

So were essentially an under 23's team and Arteta has done very well to have us in this position, especially when this is the first season of the revamp following PEA exit and the inclusion of Ramsdale, White, Tomiyasu and Odegaard into the first team, plus elevated roles and expectations for ESR, Saka, Martinelli. Its safe to say we are at the beginning of a cycle. Whist this is Arteta's third full season in charge it feels like a new beginning.

Still alot to fix. We are short of a striker. Short in numbers overall. Plus the Cedric/Tavares as back up wingbacks is a horror show. Tavares has to be the worst wing back in the league. Even worse than Telles and Emerson Royal.

But I dont understand the hate Arteta gets. He is on the verge of qualifying for the CL with the Arsenal under 23's.

Will feel so good when it all comes crushing down. I swear you will think Arsenal are about to make the jump to title challengers. Not too long ago you lost 3 in a row and after a few wins and smugness is back. Arsenal never change

 

[Someone]

I don't think they've made great progress, specially considering they had no european football, and the complete collapse of United. Top 4 will be great, but come next season I wouldn't bet on them keeping that 4th spot. I'd be more worried about Spurs if they keep Conte and back him a bit, but still far from convinced by Arsenal, too many similarities with the Ole era.

 

[Big Poppa]

This is just mad tbh. What was every Uniteds fans expectation of us this season? 8th, I think was the average position.

But, suddenly Arsenal fans should be expecting top 4 just because the season has turned out differently?

Besides, he's been here 1 full season before this one.

We finished what, a point off 4th and in the EL final when Emery got fired? Why is it now unrealistic having been the highest spenders in European football last summer, to think we should be making top 4 THIS season? Especially when you consider that Spurs, United and even Chelsea have all changed coaches in the last two seasons.

I just think as Arsenal fans we’ve set expectations low to avoid disappointment but this is cheating ourselves. We have several established internationals on loan and players we’ve let go for almost nothing because Arteta doesn’t tolerate opinions.

If West Ham and Leicester can challenge for the top 4 so should we. “Expert” / armchair supporter predictions are usually influenced by big name signings and previous league finishes. They have very little veracity and should never be used as a yardstick for progress.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It’s so crazy to me that we have had an absolute dumpster fire of a season. Worse than any of us could possibly imagine. Worse than most of us can remember. One manager fired, his replacement getting the fewest points per game of any United manager in PL history (I think?) We have been diabolically, catastrophically bad. So bad it’s been almost physically painful to watch.

And yet… and yet… If all the big refereeing decisions at the weekend had gone in our favour (and against Arsenal) we’d be on the same points as them!

Let that sink in for a moment. And then tell us all what a great job Arteta is doing…

 

[GoonerBear]

It’s so crazy to me that we have had an absolute dumpster fire of a season. Worse than any of us could possibly imagine. Worse than most of us can remember. One manager fired, his replacement getting the fewest points per game of any United manager in PL history (I think?) We have been diabolically, catastrophically bad. So bad it’s been almost physically painful to watch.

And yet… and yet… If all the big refereeing decisions at the weekend had gone in our favour (and against Arsenal) we’d be on the same points as them!

Let that sink in for a moment. And then tell us all what a great job Arteta is doing…

Your also 13 points worse off than this stage last season, and we are 14 points better off than we were last season after 33 games.

I think that's more the story of why Utd have changed managers & Arsenal haven't.

 

[Nish115]

We finished what, a point off 4th and in the EL final when Emery got fired? Why is it now unrealistic having been the highest spenders in European football last summer, to think we should be making top 4 THIS season? Especially when you consider that Spurs, United and even Chelsea have all changed coaches in the last two seasons.

I just think as Arsenal fans we’ve set expectations low to avoid disappointment but this is cheating ourselves. We have several established internationals on loan and players we’ve let go for almost nothing because Arteta doesn’t tolerate opinions.

If West Ham and Leicester can challenge for the top 4 so should we. “Expert” / armchair supporter predictions are usually influenced by big name signings and previous league finishes. They have very little veracity and should never be used as a yardstick for progress.

Do you even remember the state of the club when Emery left? That's the worst i've ever seen Arsenal. It was absolutely dreadful, far worse than United right now. It's not an easy rebuild to pick that up. We've spent money on a lot of players to freshen the squad. Chelsea have still spent a decent amount more than us while Arteta has been in charge. United too. Not to mention none of this includes wages, which everyone ignores. We purposely spent bigger fees in the summer on players with lower wages to rebuild the wage structure, but again, that's just ignored. Varane is seen as cheaper than White, when in reality he is more expensive by a good amount as an example.

What established internationals? Saliba, Guendouzi and Auba i'm guessing are who you mean. Saliba was never ready to start for us, especially with Gabriel. That partnership would have absolutely been awful, as both are still learning massively. If we had a top experienced CB, sure Saliba could have learnt as he went here, but his loans have been far more valuable. With Guendouzi and Auba, it isn't just Arteta who has had issues, different coaches have had issues with them both. And Arteta wants to rebuild the club completely and he can't do that with players who are causing issues. Sure once the club is built up with better foundations maybe he can tolerate it, but it's disruptive. Do Klopp and Pep tollerate players like that? Who turn up late, have arguments, don't take feedback etc?

It’s so crazy to me that we have had an absolute dumpster fire of a season. Worse than any of us could possibly imagine. Worse than most of us can remember. One manager fired, his replacement getting the fewest points per game of any United manager in PL history (I think?) We have been diabolically, catastrophically bad. So bad it’s been almost physically painful to watch.

And yet… and yet… If all the big refereeing decisions at the weekend had gone in our favour (and against Arsenal) we’d be on the same points as them!

Let that sink in for a moment. And then tell us all what a great job Arteta is doing…

Yh, this isn't how football works. The only decision you had against you which could have been called is the Cedric handball one, and even that they explained after why within the laws of the game it wasn't given.

And as pointed out before, we're on 60 points with 5 games to go.

Last season 4th spot got 67, and the season before 66. We're on track for a similar return. So, regardless of what United are doing, we're doing enough to get top 4 in any normal season, with a squad that's far worse than normal top 4 sides according to most. But, somehow at the same time Arteta is a rubbish coach. Something doesn't add up.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Your also 13 points worse off than this stage last season, and we are 14 points better off than we were last season after 33 games.

I think that's more the story of why Utd have changed managers & Arsenal haven't.

It certainly tells a story of big clubs having poor seasons, last season and this one. With Arsenal being absolutely spectacularly terrible last season (under guess who?)

 

[GoonerBear]

It certainly tells a story of big clubs having poor seasons, last season and this one. With Arsenal being absolutely spectacularly terrible last season (under guess who?)

Yeah, he was fortunate to keep his job last Xmas, don't think anyone is denying that. You only have to look on here to see that some want rid of him even now.

 

[BorisManUtd]

While I do believe Arteta has improved Arsenal over last 2,5 years there, I thought they were poor both games against us this season. At Old Trafford we beat them, at Emirates with more luck I think we would've taken at least a point and we're basically a broken team at this stage.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah, he was fortunate to keep his job last Xmas, don't think anyone is denying that. You only have to look on here to see that some want rid of him even now.

Well, exactly. Which is why the narrative about “look how much we improved compared to last season” makes no sense. Last season Arsenal plumbed depths never before seen in the PL era. Under the same manager who’s supposed to be getting plaudits for improving on such an atrocious haul of points.

I do get the idea that you’ve at least seen some progression but I think that’s almost entirely down to how extraordinarily bad you were, rather than becoming a top side this season. I just can’t see past the fact that you’ll still finish relatively close to a Manchester United and Spurs teams that have both been absolute trash for the majority of the last year.

 

[GoonerBear]

Well, exactly. Which is why the narrative about “look how much we improved compared to last season” makes no sense. Last season Arsenal plumbed depths never before seen in the PL era. Under the same manager who’s supposed to be getting plaudits for improving on such an atrocious haul of points.

I do get the idea that you’ve at least seen some progression but I think that’s almost entirely down to how extraordinarily bad you were, rather than becoming a top side this season. I just can’t see past the fact that you’ll still finish relatively close to a Manchester United and Spurs teams that have both been absolute trash for the majority of the last year.

What are your expectations for ETH can I ask? What goals / finishes do you expect of him next season & the season after?

 

[ThierryHenry14]

We finished what, a point off 4th and in the EL final when Emery got fired? Why is it now unrealistic having been the highest spenders in European football last summer, to think we should be making top 4 THIS season? Especially when you consider that Spurs, United and even Chelsea have all changed coaches in the last two seasons.

I just think as Arsenal fans we’ve set expectations low to avoid disappointment but this is cheating ourselves. We have several established internationals on loan and players we’ve let go for almost nothing because Arteta doesn’t tolerate opinions.

If West Ham and Leicester can challenge for the top 4 so should we. “Expert” / armchair supporter predictions are usually influenced by big name signings and previous league finishes. They have very little veracity and should never be used as a yardstick for progress.

If you believe Arsenal is entitled to be in top 4/4th place every season you better be prepared to be disappointed. It is not about setting low expectation. It is the reality. At the moment Man City, United, Liverpool, Chelsea, and even Newcastle have more resources than Arsenal. Most of the time Money is a huge factor to be successful in the league.