Pakistan

MJJ

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agree with most of that we have no one but ourselves to blame for this should have eradicated the cnuts in 2001 when the suicide bombing first started or never take a part in America and russia war.

this is why am getting anoyyed by media sensationalizing the issue or politicians blaming each other. just go in and finish all the cnuts once and for all. throw all their sympathizers out as well.
 

The Man Himself

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agree with most of that we have no one but ourselves to blame for this should have eradicated the cnuts in 2001 when the suicide bombing first started or never take a part in America and russia war.

this is why am getting anoyyed by media sensationalizing the issue or politicians blaming each other. just go in and finish all the cnuts once and for all. throw all their sympathizers out as well.
That is what I hope. All nations getting together and ending it totally, understanding that in long run it is going to hurt everyone. We all know that it would be 'used' for politics.
 

JohnLocke

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You know, I used to believe in that as well. Do you honestly believe that the Taliban is a big enough group of people to be considered as an "ethnic group"? They are not. They are terrorists. They do not conform to the standards of modern day society. What purpose does the killing of children serve? Go on tell me that. There really is no justification. It is pure insanity. These people do not deserve human rights because they treat their woman like concubines and children as the production line for "the cause". Utter madness. Have you forgotten what they did when they had power over a people? There is no dialogue left.

THEY ATTACKED CHILDREN IN THE CONSTITUENCY OF THE MAN WHO WAS TRYING TO NEGOTIATE PEACE AND STOP THE GOVT'S ASSAULT ON THE TALIBAN.

Can't be any clearer than that. It's all good to say what you want from the comfort of your living room. I have experience terrorism before, when I was holidaying in Mumbai. I came back here a changed man. I wanted to give Imran Khan a chance bcause he talked a good game and I believed in his ideal. But that's where the buck stops as evidenced by this attack. Idealism. It is either die not stopping them, stop them from doing that.
Yes they are terrorists. Some wear turbans and military jackets and others wear nice grey suits and carry briefcases, and the world would be a better place without either. But people aren't just born terrorists, there are reasons behind it.

What are these standards of the modern day, and who upholds them?

The (their) purpose, from what I can gather, is to hurt the families of those who support those killing their families; that’s all I’ve read about it so far. It serves a purpose, whether you agree with that purpose is another issue (I certainly don’t think it’s justifiable at all, and I agree that it is madness, but that’s from the comfort of my living room as you would put it). It will no doubt have serious repercussions , some they intended and others they didn’t. I doubt many people wake up and think, you know what, today would be a good day to shoot a load of innocent children, there are reasons behind it and they have to be looked into. That could well be one of the purposes. (I fear I have to repeat that I think it’s a shocking act of brutality and shouldn’t have happened regardless of what has went before).

I don’t know about the constituency you are talking about so I can’t really comment on that yet.

I don’t think the only options are we die stopping them by killing them or they kill us all. That’s just absurd.

If violence is met with more violence it’s only going to escalate things on both sides, as I’m sure this attack will too. On a somewhat different note, in Northern Ireland, we only started to move properly forward when the UK government started to listen to the grievances of Republicans. Those in power have to sit down with those who have no power and see if an arrangement can be met. Not everyone liked what happened as a result of that (early release of prisoners etc), but it’s certainly more peaceful here now and the general consensus from both sides now is that everyone prefers peace and those carrying out violence are condemned by both sides now. Don’t want to derail the thread but just using that as an example of how dialogue is better than violence.


This is a genuine question: What do the taliban want to achieve in Pakistan?

Also, I'm not trying to start some kind of moral argument in here either, just stating that violence is not going to make peace, from either quarter.
 

2cents

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Ten years since Beslan, remember thinking at the time that nothing could be worse, yet this seems to have matched it if not surpassed it in its brutality.
 

Sultan

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I don't have the stomach to watch any news today. Australia, and then this atrocity.
 

Wolverine

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Negotiation with the TTP was tried, their response was to attack our airports. These guys can't be negotiated with, they want their interpretation of Sharia Law implemented throughout Pakistan for as a baseline starter. And they've moved on from Shias, Sufis, other minorities to children now. feck them.

Interesting to note Imran Khan now generally condemning terrorism, not even naming the taliban. While TTP spokespeople are appearing on news outlets justifying this, they run madrassas, they are given safe haven in tribal areas, many in parliament, media and general public are apologists for them.

Very odd mix of utter sadness and vengeful anger I'm feeling right now.
 

VidaRed

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That is what I hope. All nations getting together and ending it totally, understanding that in long run it is going to hurt everyone. We all know that it would be 'used' for politics.
Dont hold your breath. Pakistan will destroy itself trying to stoke fires in kashmir through these proxy groups with the whole good taliban bad taliban nonsense. The pak army were infiltrating terrorists into kashmir just last week to destabalise elections.
 

milemuncher777

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@JohnLocke From what I can gather there wasn't any problem between Pathans of NWFP and Pakistan's government prior to invasion of Afghanistan. I think it pissed many Pathans off when pak militiary after discussing with tribal elders entered FATA on pretext of development and instead started a militiary operation. It swayed many ordinary Pathans towards Taliban back then as they felt they were lied to and were getting attacked.

Ordinary Pathans taking path of violance is still ongoing, but now because of drone attacks that kill many innocent civilians.
 

The Man Himself

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Dont hold your breath. Pakistan will destroy itself trying to stoke fires in kashmir through these proxy groups with the whole good taliban bad taliban nonsense. The pak army were infiltrating terrorists into kashmir just last week to destabalise elections.
Kashmir has directly or indirectly been always the reason for Pak's policy regarding Taliban or extremists. Probably they never took into account it hurting them as well at some stage. That said, I would blame India's handling of that state too, right from 1947 and never corrected despite having multiple opportunities to correct it. It has become way too complicated now.

Anyway, I understand people don't want to go into it too much at this stage. Fair enough, at some point later we can discuss it in a thread about it.
 

PedroMendez

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You know, I used to believe in that as well. Do you honestly believe that the Taliban is a big enough group of people to be considered as an "ethnic group"? They are not. They are terrorists. They do not conform to the standards of modern day society. What purpose does the killing of children serve? Go on tell me that. There really is no justification. It is pure insanity. These people do not deserve human rights because they treat their woman like concubines and children as the production line for "the cause". Utter madness. Have you forgotten what they did when they had power over a people? There is no dialogue left.

THEY ATTACKED CHILDREN IN THE CONSTITUENCY OF THE MAN WHO WAS TRYING TO NEGOTIATE PEACE AND STOP THE GOVT'S ASSAULT ON THE TALIBAN.

Can't be any clearer than that. It's all good to say what you want from the comfort of your living room. I have experience terrorism before, when I was holidaying in Mumbai. I came back here a changed man. I wanted to give Imran Khan a chance bcause he talked a good game and I believed in his ideal. But that's where the buck stops as evidenced by this attack. Idealism. It is either die not stopping them, stop them from doing that.

The Taliban are terrible. It’s hard to find proper words for them. I am not going to argue against that or excuse anything they do. They are brainwashed criminals who do terrifying things.

Still you simplify the problem. Who exactly are “the Taliban”? Do they wear signs so you can identify them as “member” or “sympathizer”? If not who do you start shooting at in these tribal areas? Sure you can try to kill their political and military leaders. The USA tried this for a while and it didn’t really work, because for every person you kill two new pop-up. It’s hard to say exactly how many Taliban are in the area, because that really depends on the question who you label “Taliban”. Eventually there are between 40k-100k. Obviously not all of them are trained fighter, still to “solve” this problem with violence you´ll have to kill at least tens of thousands of people. Considering that you´ll massively radicalize other people in the area and that you will killing many innocents, you´ll end up with a death-toll with six-digits. I certainly would call such actions ethnic cleansing, but I don’t want to argue about semantics. I hardly doubt that the problem would be over at this point, but that’s just speculation.

There are many misconceptions about this problem and I´ll try to outline two.

People make a clear distinction between Taliban (=terrorists) and the “normal population” of this area. If you see it this way the solution is fairly easy: Kill the bad guys and the “normal population” will be able to live free, happy and peaceful for the rest of their lives……well….sadly that’s just a fairytale. The distinction between the radical parts and the normal population isn’t as clear cut as people might hope. Regular people in Waziristan aren’t freedom loving and secular Pacifists. People in this area are socialized by religion, tribalism and violence for a long time. It’s more accurate to understand the Taliban as radical and violent expression of a fairly violent and intolerant tribal society against an outside threat than to understand them as religious lunatics, who are completely disconnected from the society. If you understand them in such a way just killing them won’t solve the problem, because the society, which they emerge from, will express their discomfort in a similar way again.

The second issue is one about alternatives. After invading Afghanistan the NATO established a new order in Afghanistan, which actually isn’t much better than the one of the Taliban. Instead of terrifying Taliban, warlords are in charge. Warlords who reduced Afghanistan and Kabul to rubble in the 90s. Warlords who rule arbitrary and at least equally brutal as the Taliban did. So how did removing the Taliban from power actually improve the situation?
I am not an expert about politics in Pakistan. My understanding is that it’s a fairly dubious regime, which was often disrupted by military coups. It is fairly corrupt and has a questionable track record to build up any meaningful economy or to solve any other issue. Pakistan was also never able to integrate the tribal-Pashtun areas in the western part of the country. That’s a big problem.

I´d fancy any easy solution, but it’s just not that easy. Violence might easy the immanent pain and might work as a quick-fix, but it won’t solve the problem in a long run. To solve those problems the region would need a different type of politics; politics that is able to solve basic economic and political problems; politics that is inclusive and understand its own massive shortcomings. Politics that isn’t corrupt. From a practical point of view it would also certainly help, if the ISI wouldn’t support the Taliban and other islamistic fundamentalists.

I am not opposing military actions to establish security, but those kind of actions will never solve the underlying problems.
 

The Man Himself

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Yes they are terrorists. Some wear turbans and military jackets
Can you tell me who exactly are you referring here and in what sense? First, are you aware which religion has people wearing turbans?
 

JohnLocke

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Can you tell me who exactly are you referring here and in what sense? First, are you aware which religion has people wearing turbans?
My bad. I get what you're saying, my turban remark was in referance to IS and Bin Laden, but apparently that's not a turban it's just a head-dress. But terrorists can wear them too, there's no specific uniform they have to wear. I assume you know who I was referring to in the grey suits, although it wasn't a specifc group or religion I was referring to there either.

But thanks for disregarding everything else in the post.

@PedroMendez @kid777 - I'll have a read at those now. Thanks.
 

VanGaalEra

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They entered and asked the kids who belongs to an Army family. The kids raised their hands and they shot point blank. #PeshawarAttack
 

The Man Himself

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My bad. I get what you're saying, my turban remark was in referance to IS and Bin Laden, but apparently that's not a turban it's just a head-dress. But terrorists can wear them too, there's no specific uniform they have to wear. I assume you know who I was referring to in the grey suits, although it wasn't a specifc group or religion I was referring to there either.

But thanks for disregarding everything else in the post.

@PedroMendez @kid777 - I'll have a read at those now. Thanks.
Err, I wasn't disregarding everything else, I wanted to know what did you mean by this part. No point quoting such a long post unnecessarily is there? Those who wear turbans might find it offensive to call them terrorists and hence clarification was needed. There is a reason behind my post as well because Sikhs wearing turbans have suffered attacks confusing them for terrorists so it is important to know the difference.
 

VidaRed

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Kashmir has directly or indirectly been always the reason for Pak's policy regarding Taliban or extremists. Probably they never took into account it hurting them as well at some stage. That said, I would blame India's handling of that state too, right from 1947 and never corrected despite having multiple opportunities to correct it. It has become way too complicated now.

Anyway, I understand people don't want to go into it too much at this stage. Fair enough, at some point later we can discuss it in a thread about it.
Three blunders from India was not taking all of it in 1947, nehru in his naivety got fooled by the value of the un, second was IG not taking reclaiming it in 1971 when the opportunity presented itself, although the usa had said it wouldn't allow it. Third was rigging elections and there's always art 370.

As for pakistan they still dont realize that they'll get burned instead of India by these proxies, i bet your ass they'll be infiltrating the so called good taliban into kashmir in the near future.
 

JohnLocke

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Err, I wasn't disregarding everything else, I wanted to know what did you mean by this part. No point quoting such a long post unnecessarily is there? Those who wear turbans might find it offensive to call them terrorists and hence clarification was needed. There is a reason behind my post as well because Sikhs wearing turbans have suffered attacks confusing them for terrorists so it is important to know the difference.
You didn't have to quote the whole post. But anyway.

Of course I don't think that everyone who wears a turban and a military jacket is a terrorist anymore than someone who wears a suit and carries a briefcase.

Sikhs being attacked for their dress is a more specific problem of hatred and ignorance than my loose example of how terrorists all look different.

I do see your point regarding ignorance and violence, but clearly wasn't intending to offend anyone with my error in head wear terminology. I didn't mean to offend the Sikhs, tribes of Africa or anyone else who fancies sporting a turban for any reason whatsoever. And apologies if anyone else is offended.

I don't know an awful lot about the region and am curious to know why people would kill so many children, because it goes way beyond what is usually deemed as "acceptable" in pursuing terrorist aims. I'm not saying blowing up a car, for example, is acceptable, but shooting a school full of kids is obviously extreme in the fullest sense of the word.
 

The Man Himself

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You didn't have to quote the whole post. But anyway.

Of course I don't think that everyone who wears a turban and a military jacket is a terrorist anymore than someone who wears a suit and carries a briefcase.

Sikhs being attacked for their dress is a more specific problem of hatred and ignorance than my loose example of how terrorists all look different.

I do see your point regarding ignorance and violence, but clearly wasn't intending to offend anyone with my error in head wear terminology. I didn't mean to offend the Sikhs, tribes of Africa or anyone else who fancies sporting a turban for any reason whatsoever. And apologies if anyone else is offended.

I don't know an awful lot about the region and am curious to know why people would kill so many children, because it goes way beyond what is usually deemed as "acceptable" in pursuing terrorist aims. I'm not saying blowing up a car, for example, is acceptable, but shooting a school full of kids is obviously extreme in the fullest sense of the word.
I know you didn't mean to hurt hence wanted to clarify.
 

Wolverine

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I don't know an awful lot about the region and am curious to know why people would kill so many children, because it goes way beyond what is usually deemed as "acceptable" in pursuing terrorist aims. I'm not saying blowing up a car, for example, is acceptable, but shooting a school full of kids is obviously extreme in the fullest sense of the word.
To demoralise the army. Most of the kids were their's. The army faces constant criticism for alleged sympathy with some extremist groups, it is fighting on several fronts (kashmir, balochistan, tribal areas along with trying to control political unrest by governmental parties, gangs and warlords) and is overworked, underfunded, undertrained. The army have lost several men, strategy-planning high ranking officers along with their kids now.

What's astounding is that if the political elite in Pakistan was united we'd be much more effective in combating terrorism.
 

FromTheBench

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Kashmir has directly or indirectly been always the reason for Pak's policy regarding Taliban or extremists. Probably they never took into account it hurting them as well at some stage. That said, I would blame India's handling of that state too, right from 1947 and never corrected despite having multiple opportunities to correct it. It has become way too complicated now.

Anyway, I understand people don't want to go into it too much at this stage. Fair enough, at some point later we can discuss it in a thread about it.
Three blunders from India was not taking all of it in 1947, nehru in his naivety got fooled by the value of the un, second was IG not taking reclaiming it in 1971 when the opportunity presented itself, although the usa had said it wouldn't allow it. Third was rigging elections and there's always art 370.

As for pakistan they still dont realize that they'll get burned instead of India by these proxies, i bet your ass they'll be infiltrating the so called good taliban into kashmir in the near future.
Taliban was created and supported more to get a favorable govt. and control in Afghanistan than anything else. In 2001 when USA pretty much twisted Pakistan's hand to turn against them, and get into the war the taliban split and most of them turned back on Pakistan and since then Pakistan has been going back and forth in terms of their relation with Taliban. Also Internal insurgency that was going on added to it when they came inside and started brainwashing more people. Pakistan should have been more aggressive from the start in 2001, never allowed anyone in and looked to exterminate them without letting them enter at all once the war on terror began but their policy was all over the place. Now innocents paying for it. :(

There is some overlap but the terrorists who target Kashmir and India are generally different and mostly still on friendlier terms with the establishment in Pakistan.

Also, not the right thread to discuss Kashmir. Dunno why everyone getting worked over it. I am like Most of England vis a vis Scotland to Kashmir.
 

antihenry

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People make a clear distinction between Taliban (=terrorists) and the “normal population” of this area. If you see it this way the solution is fairly easy: Kill the bad guys and the “normal population” will be able to live free, happy and peaceful for the rest of their lives……well….sadly that’s just a fairytale. The distinction between the radical parts and the normal population isn’t as clear cut as people might hope. Regular people in Waziristan aren’t freedom loving and secular Pacifists. People in this area are socialized by religion, tribalism and violence for a long time. It’s more accurate to understand the Taliban as radical and violent expression of a fairly violent and intolerant tribal society against an outside threat than to understand them as religious lunatics, who are completely disconnected from the society. If you understand them in such a way just killing them won’t solve the problem, because the society, which they emerge from, will express their discomfort in a similar way again.
This is a very good explanation. In these few sentences you summarized what many politicians can't or won't comprehend. There are no easy solutions to this problem.
 

FromTheBench

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I'd suggest making them weaker as much as possible militarily and then only talking to them and giving region more incentives.
 

The Man Himself

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Taliban was created and supported more to get a favorable govt. and control in Afghanistan than anything else. In 2001 when USA pretty much twisted Pakistan's hand to turn against them, and get into the war the taliban split and most of them turned back on Pakistan and since then Pakistan has been going back and forth in terms of their relation with Taliban. Also Internal insurgency that was going on added to it when they came inside and started brainwashing more people. Pakistan should have been more aggressive from the start in 2001, never allowed anyone in and looked to exterminate them without letting them enter at all once the war on terror began but their policy was all over the place. Now innocents paying for it. :(

There is some overlap but the terrorists who target Kashmir and India are generally different and mostly still on friendlier terms with the establishment in Pakistan.

Also, not the right thread to discuss Kashmir. Dunno why everyone getting worked over it. I am like Most of England vis a vis Scotland to Kashmir.
I don't think Pakistan only had favorable government in Afghanistan in mind.
Yes there are other terrorist organizations but there are definitely links. That's why I said directly or indirectly.

Views regarding Kashmir for Indians especially and England people about Scotland is not same scenario.
 

FromTheBench

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I don't think Pakistan only had favorable government in Afghanistan in mind.
Yes there are other terrorist organizations but there are definitely links. That's why I said directly or indirectly.

Views regarding Kashmir for Indians especially and England people about Scotland is not same scenario.
Indirectly you could make a case as it's bit jumbled up and lot's of proxy wars were fought in Afghanistan and also recently foot soldiers of diff terrorist organisations including the ones in Pakistan Punjab which target India are getting more and more overlap.

And I'm Indian too.
 

VidaRed

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State of Delusion
Husain Haqqani

Pakistani paramilitary soldiers at the Wagah border a day after a suicide bombing on November 3, Courtesy: AFPThe murder by the Taliban of more than 130 schoolchildren in Peshawar on December 16 has stunned Pakistan, and indeed the world. But the incident marks only an escalation in the brutality of jihadis, not its beginning. Over the years, Pakistan’s homegrown terrorists have bombed Shia and Ahmadi mosques, Sunni shrines, Christian churches and Hindu temples. Over a thousand attacks on schools by the Taliban have been reported since 2009, mainly in the northwestern Pakhtunkhwa province. Jihadi targets over the years have included local ISI offices in several cities, naval and air force bases in Karachi and Kamra, the Karachi International Airport and even the army’s General Headquarters. If the breadth of attrition has not cured Pakistan’s jihadi addiction, would the death of innocent children and the burning alive of their teachers in a Peshawar school result in a fundamental change of heart?

Soon after the Peshawar carnage, Maulana Abdul Aziz of the infamous Islamabad Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, refused to condemn the Taliban’s action, indicating the stubbornness of the jihadi worldview. Taliban apologist Imran Khan parsed his words to condemn the act but not its perpetrators by name. Another Pakistani establishment favourite, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed of Lashkar-e-Toiba/Jamaat-ud-Dawa, went on television to blame India for the Taliban’s school attack and vowed revenge inside India.

The roots of Pakistan’s jihadism lie in its establishment’s obsession with India, which goes back to partition, the twonation theory and the fear that powerful forces want the dismemberment of Pakistan. The break-up of Pakistan in 1971, and the emergence of an independent Bangladesh in erstwhile East Pakistan, has reinforced national paranoia instead of convincing the country’s Punjabi elite of the need to come to terms with Pakistan’s size and power and finding security within the parameters of reality.

Pakistan’s constructed identity emphasises religion and ideology at the expense of ethnic, linguistic and sectarian diversity of a complex society. As a result, the country’s approach to national security has been driven by ideological rather than pragmatic considerations. Although Pakistan’s military and civil bureaucracy both originated from institutions created under the British, their approach and attitudes have progressively been driven more by the ‘ideology of Pakistan’ than the professionalism that they often project to outsiders.

The relationship between Pakistan and jihadism cannot be understood without understanding the country’s ideological dimension, the fact that it was created as a result of an idea. Pakistan has a national narrative, a national milieu and a national identity all built around Islam. For the first 30 years of Pakistan’s existence the clamour was for religiosity within and Pan-Islamism in foreign policy. For the next 30 years global jihadism has been the overarching security and foreign policy idea that has advanced the Pakistani ideology.

Even though three successive commanders of the Pakistani army-Gen Pervez Musharraf, Gen Ashfaq Kayani and now Gen Raheel Sharif-have sought to curtail the jihadis’ influence within Pakistan, including through military operations, their efforts have always fallen short because of the nation’s ideological compulsions. The ideology of Pakistan, and the falsified historic narrative taught in schools to justify it, produces sympathy in society for Sharia rule, for an Islamic caliphate and an Islamic state. This works in favour of more than 33 militant groups that operate out of Pakistan. Pakistan’s strategic planners may see no difficulty in eliminating global terrorists and fighting local jihadis while supporting regional ones. But the general public is conflicted in its attitude towards jihadi groups. Unfortunately for those who want to stop the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan, their rhetoric about Sharia and against western values resonates with supporters of other, ostensibly ‘more palatable’, jihadi groups even if their methods are abhorred by Pakistanis.

For most countries, nuclear weapons are the ultimate guarantee against invasion or territorial extinction. But to the disciples of the ‘ideology of Pakistan’, security is not enough. Built in into the two-nation theory is the notion of parity between Muslim Pakistan and Hindu India. The events of the last 67 years may have rendered the twonation theory redundant. The number of Muslims living in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh is now roughly equal and there are more Muslims in the subcontinent that live outside Pakistan than in it. But the ideological conception of Pakistan requires that it claim the mantle of Muslim nationhood and pursue equivalence to India in status, power and international standing.

Pakistan’s size and economy does not allow it to be on a par with a much larger and increasingly wealthier India. The machinations of the Cold War that enabled Pakistani leaders to punch beyond their weight through alliance with the West, especially the United States, is also over. That leaves asymmetric warfare through jihadis as the only strategic option for Pakistan’s ideologues. The other course, that of pursuing security and prosperity of geographic Pakistan and its people without insisting on the ideology of Pakistan, has simply not found sufficient resonance among Islamabad’s powerful quarters.
 

VidaRed

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STRAINS OF IDEOLOGICAL NATIONALISM

The case made by Pakistan’s ideologues is appealing to Pakistanis even as it drags the country down the road of tragedies similar to the recent one in Peshawar. In 1947, the country inherited few resources and feared strangulation at birth. The partition riots and the exclusion of Jammu and Kashmir scarred Pakistan’s founding generation. The country survived because of its people’s resilience and its leaders’ adept Cold War alliances.

As early as 1948, Pakistan’s first military foray into Kashmir involved lashkars from the tribal areas along the border with Afghanistan. The irregular fighter added to the Pakistani military’s muscle. Engaging the tribesmen in jihad across the Indus, in Kashmir, pre-empted the possibility of their becoming involved in schemes for Pashtunistan-the land of the Pashtuns-advocated at the time by Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and the government of Afghanistan. Thus began Pakistan’s tolerance and support for non-state actors tied by ideological nationalism to the strategic vision of Pakistan’s military establishment.

In the 1980s, Pakistan’s policy received a shot in the arm with the US decision to support the mujahideen in Afghanistan in order to combat the Soviet Union. As substantial amounts of money, weapons and fighters flowed in, Pakistan’s security establishment began setting up camps to not only train fighters to battle in Afghanistan, but also in Jammu and Kashmir. Today, a wide array of militant organisations operate in Pakistan with safe havens in urban and rural areas. Some of these include sectarian organisations that target religious minorities and Muslim sects (Sipah-e-Sahaba), anti-India outfits (Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed), anti-Afghanistan groups (Mullah Omar’s Taliban and the Haqqani network), and militants waging war against the Pakistani military (Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan).

The 9/11 attacks and the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan was the first turning point in the nature of militancy in Pakistan. General Musharraf was quick to sever ties with the Taliban government in Kabul and supported American operations in Afghanistan. To give the peace process with India some traction, he put a temporary halt on militant flow into Jammu and Kashmir. In April 1999, Musharraf had told a group of retired military officers that “Taliban are my strategic reserve and I can unleash them in tens of thousands against India when I want”. By 2002, he had changed his tune, nominally banning groups such as the Lashkar-e-Toiba. But the banned organisations and their leadership were allowed to operate under new names.

Under Musharraf, Pakistan began differentiating between jihadi groups. While foreign terrorists with links to al-Qaeda were handed over to the United States, local and regional militants (sectarian, anti-India and anti-Afghan groups) were left alone. Some militants built capacity to challenge the writ of the state right under the nose of Pakistani security forces. They have inflicted huge casualties on security forces in Pakistan and Afghanistan over the years. Other groups such as the Haqqani network were ‘managed’ by intelligence agencies in a bid to exert influence on events in Afghanistan.

The current Pakistani problem of increasing terrorism at home is the result of that policy. While the state might differentiate among terrorists, the jihadis often tend to be sympathetic and supportive towards one another. The jihadis supported by the establishment end up supporting terrorists attacking Pakistan’s army and civilians. As is often the case with ideologically motivated militants, ideology takes precedence over strategy and, in the case of jihadis, even those accepting Pakistani state support see the value of some fighters using force to Islamise Pakistan further even at the cost of undermining the country’s stability. According to the South Asia Terrorism Portal, 19,152 civilians and 5,839 security force personnel lost their lives in terrorismrelated violence between 2003 and 2014, excluding the casualties of the latest massacre in Peshawar.

Pakistan’s adherence to an ideological nationalism based on Islam has allowed radical groups to propagate their message and raise large sums of money without much hindrance. Further, while the military and intelligence coercive apparatus has been strong, the local police has never been provided the political support, resources and skills required to be able to combat these radical outfits. Faced with a poorly trained and demoralised police force, some groups run extortion and kidnapping rackets in urban centres. They also raise money through narcotics trafficking and trade of smuggled goods. The militant organisations have thus a sophisticated system of raising funds to support their activities that would enable them to operate even after the Pakistani state has made a final decision to cut them off. So far, unfortunately, that decision itself seems elusive. For years, Pakistan has been living in denial. For years, Pakistan denied support for the Afghan Taliban or the existence of Kashmiri jihadi training camps. The presence of al Qaeda leaders, including Osama bin Laden, was attributed to the inadvertent consequences of Pakistan’s involvement in the anti-Soviet jihad of the 1980s. But denial does not offer a way forward. Pakistan’s Islamo-nationalism has bred radicalism, diminished economic growth and weakened its international standing. Also unknown is the extent of ideological radicalisation within Pakistan’s armed forces, which remain the country’s dominant institution.

A FAILING STATE?

There have been numerous instances of military officers, non-commissioned officers and enlisted men co-operating with jihadists or deserting their service to join jihadist ranks. But the Pakistani military tends to hold back information on the matter, making an assessment of the extent of this problem difficult. Incidents such as the attacks on the Pakistani naval base ‘Mehran’ in 2011, air force base Kamra in 2012 and the 2014 foiled attempt by Al-Qaeda in the Indian Subcontinent (AQIS) to take over a navy frigate in Karachi harbour point to the persistence of jihadi influence within the ranks of the armed forces.

Jamat-ud-Dawaleader Hafiz Saeed during Arallyin Islamabad In May, Courtesy: AFPAs US and NATO forces withdraw from Afghanistan, it is unlikely that the Pakistani establishment would want to give up its decades-long pursuit of paramountcy over Afghanistan. Faced with international pressure as well as growing threats from the Pakistani Taliban, Pakistan has cleared out the known jihadist sanctuaries in North Waziristan. This has deprived Afghan groups such as the Haqqani network of their former headquarters. But Pakistan has neither acted against nor militarily confronted the Afghan Taliban leaders and the Haqqani network is believed to have relocated to other parts of FATA.

Pakistan’s policy in the immediate future would likely be to engage with the government of Afghanistan and the US in negotiations, with the stated objective of finding a negotiated settlement with the Taliban. At the same time Pakistan will most likely continue to try and militarily change the ground situation in Afghanistan in an effort to force the world to deal with de facto Taliban control of parts of Afghanistan as fait accompli. In Islamabad’s view, this would enable it to determine the final terms of an Afghan settlement, resulting in India’s exclusion from Afghanistan and the northwestern neighbour being acknowledged as Pakistan’s sphere of influence.
 

VidaRed

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But are fantasies of parity with India and paramountcy over Afghanistan realistic policies? For 67 years, Pakistan has developed one element of national power-the military one-at the cost of all other elements of national power. The country’s institutions, ranging from schools and universities to the judiciary, are in a state of general decline. The economy’s stuttering growth is dependent largely on the flow of concessional flows of external resources. Pakistan’s GDP stands at $245 billion in absolute terms and $845 billion in purchasing price parity-the smallest economy of any country that has so far tested nuclear weapons.

Twenty-two per cent of the population lives below the poverty line and another 21 per cent lives just above it, resulting in almost half the people of Pakistan being very poor. It is little comfort for Pakistanis living in poverty when they are told that poverty across the border in India or Afghanistan is even starker.

Soon after independence, 16.4 per cent of Pakistan’s population was literate compared with 18.3 per cent of the much larger population in India. By 2011 India had managed to attain 74.04 per cent literacy while Pakistan’s literacy rate stood at 57 per cent. What was atwo percentage points difference in literacy rates has expanded into a nearly 20 percentage points difference in 67 years. In 2009, Pakistan allocated 2.7 per cent of its budget for education-the school life expectancy is seven years.

A staggering 38 per cent of Pakistanis between the school-going age of five and 15 are completely out of school. With a population of 180-190 million out of which 60 per cent fall in the working age category of 15-64 and another 35 per cent under 14 years of age, Pakistan has a demographic dividend which can also turn into a demographic nightmare. The low literacy rate and inadequate investment in education has led to a decline in Pakistan’s technological base, which in turn hampers economic modernisation. Textiles is the country’s major industry but despite being a major cotton-producer, Pakistan has been unable to become a leader in value-added textile products.

With one of the lowest tax-to-GDP ratios in the world of around 9 per cent, a GDP growth rate of 1.7-2.4 per cent and population growth rate of 1.5 per cent, Pakistan needs foreign as well as domestic investment in addition to drastic changes in local laws, all of which need broad political consensus and stability, both of which are lacking.

With almost 40 per cent of its population urbanised, the Pakistan government spends around 2.6 per cent on public healthcare. As a result, social services are also in a state of decline. On the other hand, Pakistan spends almost 6 per cent of its GDP on defence and is still unable to match the conventional forces of India, which outspends Pakistan 3 to 1 while allocating less than 3 per cent of GDP to military spending.

Over the decades, Pakistan has managed to evade crises and failure status primarily because the international community has bailed it out. But now the rest of the world sees Pakistan as ‘jihad central.’ Training camps nestled in the tribal areas have trained and equipped militants who have gone on to fight in the name of Allah in different regions of the world. Foreign fighters trained in Pakistan have reportedly been in action in Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Mali, Nigeria and China’s Xinjiang region. It is no longer possible to keep Pakistani jihadis as a strategic reserve only to cause damage to India.

Instead of securing parity with India and paramountcy over Afghanistan, jihadis have only created greater internal crises and disruption within Pakistan. It might be a difficult decision but Pakistan must recognise the heavy cost being exacted by its pursuit of regional influence through asymmetric warfare. Fighting some jihadis while embracing others is self-defeating. Thirty years of escalated jihadism since the anti-Soviet war in Afghanistan has caused erosion of the writ of the Pakistani state and decline in capacity of state institutions, especially the coercive apparatus.

Even with sporadic military operations, Pakistan’s tribal areas will remain host for some time to a wide range of militant organisations with local, regional and global agendas. Pakistan’s most populous area, Punjab, is now the main recruitment area not only for the Pakistani army but also for assorted jihadi groups. The growing presence of jihadis in south Punjab and northern Sind and even Pakistan’s financial hub, Karachi, does not augur well for Pakistan’s economy.

Pakistan’s jihadis are already exercising virtual veto over Pakistan’s relations with India. The Mumbai attack proved Lashkar-e-Toiba’s ability to undermine the initiatives of a civilian government for normalisation of India-Pakistan relations. They could, in future, force the Pakistani military’s hand in a similar manner. Pakistan needs to get out of denial that there are any jihadi groups that can be trusted or considered allies of the state. However useful they might have been for external purposes, non-state actors will always be a danger for the state internally. Instead of increasing Pakistan’s strategic options, as they were designed to do, the jihadis are now limiting Pakistan’s foreign policy choices.

Instead of doubling down on its jihadist misadventure, Pakistan could plot its course out of the disaster. To do so, it would have to change the defensive national narrative about Pakistan’s creation, raison d’etre and prospects of survival. So far, any discussion of the nation’s origins that does not conform to the ‘ideology of Pakistan’ has been treated not as history but as an attack on the country’s foundation.

A LOOK BACK TO LOOK AHEAD

After mobilising support for the demand for Pakistan, and establishing it as an independent country, successive Pakistani leaders have chosen to keep alive the divisive frenzy that led to Partition. If Pakistan was attained with the slogan ‘Islam in danger’, it has been built on the slogan ‘Pakistan in danger’, creating a constant sense of insecurity among its people, especially in relation to India and internal demands for ethnic identity or pluralism. This might be the time to revisit the ideas of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and Bengal’s Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy, who had opposed the conjuring of this ‘ideology of Pakistan’.

Suhrawardy had told Pakistan’s Constituent Assembly in March 1948 against building Pakistani nationalism around the notion of Islam being under threat. According to him, the rhetoric used to mobilise Muslims for the creation of Pakistan was no longer needed after independence. “You are raising the cry,” he said, “of Pakistan in danger for the purpose of arousing Muslim sentiments and binding them together in order to maintain you in power.” Suhrawardy warned against transforming Pakistan into a state “founded on sentiments, namely that of Islam in danger or of Pakistan in danger”. He declared that “a state which will be held together by raising the bogey of attacks” and “friction” with enemies “will be full of alarms and excursions”. Suhrawardy’s words seem almost prophetic today. He said, “You think that you will get away with it but in that state there will be no commerce, no business and no trade. There will be lawlessness and those lawless elements that may be turned today against non-Muslims will be turned later on, once those fratricidal tendencies have been aroused, against the Muslim gentry and I want you to be warned in time.” He also defined the two key issues for the new country.The “fundamental aspect of the foundations of Pakistan”, he asserted, should be “the goodwill of the people and of the citizens of Pakistan within the state” and “the mutual relationship between the Dominion of Pakistan and the sister dominion, Indian Union”.

If the Pakistani establishment decides to turn the corner, it would have to stop treating Pakistan’s anti-jihadists as its enemies and gradually embrace a new national narrative for the country. Confronting the jihadists comprehensively would make Pakistan more secure, paving the way for greater prosperity and a place under the sun. Refusing to confront and marginalise them will only lead to recurrent tragedies like the one in Peshawar, followed by grief and outrage.

http://www.hudson.org/research/10885-state-of-delusion
 

sport2793

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A LOOK BACK TO LOOK AHEAD

After mobilising support for the demand for Pakistan, and establishing it as an independent country, successive Pakistani leaders have chosen to keep alive the divisive frenzy that led to Partition. If Pakistan was attained with the slogan ‘Islam in danger’, it has been built on the slogan ‘Pakistan in danger’, creating a constant sense of insecurity among its people, especially in relation to India and internal demands for ethnic identity or pluralism. This might be the time to revisit the ideas of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and Bengal’s Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy, who had opposed the conjuring of this ‘ideology of Pakistan’.

Suhrawardy had told Pakistan’s Constituent Assembly in March 1948 against building Pakistani nationalism around the notion of Islam being under threat. According to him, the rhetoric used to mobilise Muslims for the creation of Pakistan was no longer needed after independence. “You are raising the cry,” he said, “of Pakistan in danger for the purpose of arousing Muslim sentiments and binding them together in order to maintain you in power.” Suhrawardy warned against transforming Pakistan into a state “founded on sentiments, namely that of Islam in danger or of Pakistan in danger”. He declared that “a state which will be held together by raising the bogey of attacks” and “friction” with enemies “will be full of alarms and excursions”. Suhrawardy’s words seem almost prophetic today. He said, “You think that you will get away with it but in that state there will be no commerce, no business and no trade. There will be lawlessness and those lawless elements that may be turned today against non-Muslims will be turned later on, once those fratricidal tendencies have been aroused, against the Muslim gentry and I want you to be warned in time.” He also defined the two key issues for the new country.The “fundamental aspect of the foundations of Pakistan”, he asserted, should be “the goodwill of the people and of the citizens of Pakistan within the state” and “the mutual relationship between the Dominion of Pakistan and the sister dominion, Indian Union”.

If the Pakistani establishment decides to turn the corner, it would have to stop treating Pakistan’s anti-jihadists as its enemies and gradually embrace a new national narrative for the country. Confronting the jihadists comprehensively would make Pakistan more secure, paving the way for greater prosperity and a place under the sun. Refusing to confront and marginalise them will only lead to recurrent tragedies like the one in Peshawar, followed by grief and outrage.

http://www.hudson.org/research/10885-state-of-delusion
While I think the article was outstanding, I find it amusing that the author portrays Suhrawardy as a proponent of moderation when he was probably the biggest instigator of communal/partition riots before independence in Bengal.
 

Dumbstar

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If anyone wants to look back then we need to go no further than the Musharraf threads on any forums. Here is the key fact:

Soon after the Peshawar carnage, Maulana Abdul Aziz of the infamous Islamabad Lal Masjid, or Red Mosque, refused to condemn the Taliban’s action, indicating the stubbornness of the jihadi worldview. Taliban apologist Imran Khan parsed his words to condemn the act but not its perpetrators by name. Another Pakistani establishment favourite, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed of Lashkar-e-Toiba/Jamaat-ud-Dawa, went on television to blame India for the Taliban’s school attack and vowed revenge inside India.

Musharaf was condemned by Pakistanis and non-Pakistanis alike. Everyone in the West wanted him because he wasn't "democratically" elected in, oh boohoo. And everyone in Pakistan wanted rid of him because he was curtailing corruption and middle class Pakistanis main livelihood is off corruption. This is no exaggeration I am of Pakistani origin and I know exactly what my ordinary uncles, cousins, friends, etc are up to.

Musharraf made the bold move of taking no prisoners with the Red Mosque incident. He had to go in to get the perpetrators. He was proven right to do so with the ammunition found inside. Yet he was vilifed and pilloried for it in the West. The West and Corrupt-Pakistan won. They got Musharaf out and put the most corrupt man on this planet in: Benazir Bhutto's husband. And now we're asking where it all went wrong. Idiocracy at its worst.
 

2cents

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The TTP only rose to prominance under Musharraf's watch. He signed a number of 'peace' agreements with them which only handed them power in the tribal zones and emboldened them. He was the chief supporter of the 'good Taliban/bad Taliban' idea.
 

Dumbstar

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But he was the only one trying to get something to work. And he had a strong message: Not in our house! Bhutto came in and let them do what they like to the country to mask his own looting of the nation's wealth into his personal Swiss bank accounts. The more the media focused on the terrorism and his inability to handle it, the less they focused on where the fook the money was going.

Anyway, ultimately the Pakistani people voted and they showed their true colours. You reap what you sow.
 

2cents

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Mumtaz Qadri's shrine: In memory of Salmaan Taseer’s assassin

http://www.dawn.com/news/1302289/

Should be noted that Qadri apparently identified with the Barelvi form of Islam which is often heralded as a soft, cuddly Sufi 'solution' to the problem of Islamic extremism in Pakistan. Given their penchant for shrine visitations (in contrast to followers of the more 'extreme' Deobandi and Ahl-i Hadis forms) it's likely the vast majority of pilgrims here adhere to the same school.
 

2mufc0

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Mumtaz Qadri's shrine: In memory of Salmaan Taseer’s assassin

http://www.dawn.com/news/1302289/

Should be noted that Qadri apparently identified with the Barelvi form of Islam which is often heralded as a soft, cuddly Sufi 'solution' to the problem of Islamic extremism in Pakistan. Given their penchant for shrine visitations (in contrast to followers of the more 'extreme' Deobandi and Ahl-i Hadis forms) it's likely the vast majority of pilgrims here adhere to the same school.
While this true for most people who ascribe to that school but there is a very extreme (sectarian wise) element within the Barelwis, just as bad as the extreme Salafis imo in terms of sectarianism. You just have to delve into the works of founder (Ahmed Raza Khan) to see where this stems from.

But agree with you about Mumtaz Qadiri, it's ridiculous how he has now ended up as some sort of martyr, in 50 years time that shrine will become one of a 'holy saint', that's how things work over there.
 

Witchking

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Very disturbing to read that a murderer now has a shrine and the donations are in millions. How can the majority support this kind of extremism? The blasphemy law needs to go.
 

2cents

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While this true for most people who ascribe to that school but there is a very extreme (sectarian wise) element within the Barelwis, just as bad as the extreme Salafis imo in terms of sectarianism. You just have to delve into the works of founder (Ahmed Raza Khan) to see where this stems from.

But agree with you about Mumtaz Qadiri, it's ridiculous how he has now ended up as some sort of martyr, in 50 years time that shrine will become one of a 'holy saint', that's how things work over there.
Yeah totally agree, I've been reading up a lot about Ahmad Riza Khan, he even travelled to Mecca and somehow obtained a fatwa from some Hanafi ulama there declaring the lead Deobandi ulama to be kafirs. Just shows how simplistic notions of the various sects in Pakistan ('sufi' Barelvis, 'extremist' Deobandis, etc.) don't really help understand how things work over there.
 

VidaRed

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Yeah totally agree, I've been reading up a lot about Ahmad Riza Khan, he even travelled to Mecca and somehow obtained a fatwa from some Hanafi ulama there declaring the lead Deobandi ulama to be kafirs. Just shows how simplistic notions of the various sects in Pakistan ('sufi' Barelvis, 'extremist' Deobandis, etc.) don't really help understand how things work over there.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

2cents

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Just re-read that bit, apparently it was a group of 33 ulama, and as well as Hanafis it included Shafi'is and Malikis. It led to a fatwa war as the Deobandis responded in kind (this was all in 1906).