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lost7

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You forgot Pogba played with Zlatan too when he came. Even if the team in which Bruno came is better it certainly isnt so much better as you say. It is if you move goalposts like in your post.
Mate look at our squad in 2016 vs now. It's like night and day difference
 

laughtersassassin

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The fact he wins trophies with France and he is arguably their most important and best player over the years means he will leave us imo.

If I'm him I'm looking at my career at Juve and at France and well let's be honest he is absolutely brilliant for them and it's so easy and natural. No one can tell me he is carried by Kante or whoever because at international level I think he is the best Centre Mid in the world easily since the last world cup.

So if I'm him I'm probably thinking that Manchester United are kind of the problem as for whatever reason we as a club can never get things right post Ferguson.

And despite everyone's willingness to, that cannot be blamed on one player and is a much larger problem that the fans should concern themselves with.

We play McTominay and Fred in midfield. Of course we won't be realistically capable of truly competing with City and Liverpool and the likes of Bayern.

Honestly I'd probably put Ole in that too. He has done a great job rebuilding the team but at the end of the day he is a worse manager than the managers our rivals have so it's hard to see us winning out over our rivals over the course of a season.

I reckon Pogba joins Mbappe at Madrid. There is no Midfielder in World football who can feed Mbappe as well as Pogba in my opinion. So if I'm Madrid buying both is a no brainer.

As a Manchester United fan I'll be disappointed but wish him the best. In terms of our future I'd just hope we aren't stupid enough to buy Rice as his replacement.

Rice Fred would be an awful partnership.

Rice can replace Fred or McTominay but we will need someone with world class ability and passing to replace Pogba.
 

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Nope.

In addition Mikhi and Bailly have been massive flops all things considered. Nothing like having Maguire and Greenwood in the side. As for Pereira, Lingard and James well the first two players were playing in Bruno’s position and james had been replaced by Greenwood largely. Do you really want to argue that Bruno didn’t come into a much better side than Pogba?

Your last statement is exactly the point. But Pogba gets criticised and questioned for his consistency more than any other player. When he is no less consistent than others. Bruno is benchmarked when he himself has had huge periods of poor form and impact wise…well we’ve not won anything and in the same time period when Pogba joined we did, with a much worse side. That’s not to blame Bruno, it is to question the impact because where is the tangible evidence of having a much greater impact.
With benefit of hindsight you can say all of them were flops. When Pogba was signed, we signed a promising CB who looked level above anyone we have, arguably best player from Bundesliga, best player from French league. We also had much younger Mata and very highly rated Martial who had brilliant season, Herrera who was rated as our best CM and even now he is rated as much better than Fred, McTominay. Then the magic touch of Jose to turn everything into shit.

When Bruno was signed, Rashford was injured. So we had James, AP, Mata, Lingard occupying 3 positions behind striker. Greenwood was barely a regular player at that time.

You can flip the question, when was your confidence of winning league higher, in 2016 summer when Jose was signed along with Zlatan, Mkhi, Pogba or in Jan 2020 when we 5th in the table after 2/3rd of the season, 14 points behind Leicester and level on points with teams like Wolves, Sheffield United with Ole as manager who had no track record of success at top leagues?

Ofcourse there is evidence of his impact, the position in the table and the teams we were competing in Jan 2020 compared to now. Bruno is also criticized like Pogba or any other player. His thread after every game is hard to read.

Yeah Pogba gets more criticism for some weird, maybe because people see him as a defensive liability when we have messed up the balance of the team.
 

AltiUn

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You forgot Pogba played with Zlatan too when he came. Even if the team in which Bruno came is better it certainly isnt so much better as you say. It is if you move goalposts like in your post.
Our current team would handily beat the 2016 one.
 

Real Name

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If I'm him I'm looking at my career at Juve and at France and well let's be honest he is absolutely brilliant for them and it's so easy and natural. No one can tell me he is carried by Kante or whoever because at international level I think he is the best Centre Mid in the world easily since the last world cup.
I know you love the guy and some of the things you wrote in the post are right but I'm not sure about this part. Especially when you have a player like Jorginho in the international level. Just one example.
Also not so sure about him being French best player over the years too but lets leave that cause we'll go in circles.
 

VP89

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With benefit of hindsight you can say all of them were flops. When Pogba was signed, we signed a promising CB who looked level above anyone we have, arguably best player from Bundesliga, best player from French league. We also had much younger Mata and very highly rated Martial who had brilliant season, Herrera who was rated as our best CM and even now he is rated as much better than Fred, McTominay. Then the magic touch of Jose to turn everything into shit.

When Bruno was signed, Rashford was injured. So we had James, AP, Mata, Lingard occupying 3 positions behind striker. Greenwood was barely a regular player at that time.

You can flip the question, when was your confidence of winning league higher, in 2016 summer when Jose was signed along with Zlatan, Mkhi, Pogba or in Jan 2020 when we 5th in the table after 2/3rd of the season, 14 points behind Leicester and level on points with teams like Wolves, Sheffield United with Ole as manager who had no track record of success at top leagues?

Ofcourse there is evidence of his impact, the position in the table and the teams we were competing in Jan 2020 compared to now. Bruno is also criticized like Pogba or any other player. His thread after every game is hard to read.

Yeah Pogba gets more criticism for some weird, maybe because people see him as a defensive liability when we have messed up the balance of the team.
You don't need hindsight for some of them. Mkhi did come with some warnings, I recall. There were a lot of people who would have preferred Mane of Mkhi at the time. Pogba I felt was never worth 89 mil, and Bailey was a potential who actually was paying off up until his ankle break. He's just never been the same player since.

I think a lot of us, me included, needed hindsight to know Jose had a bad impact. Many did not see that coming. But Pogba's criticism is there because of many reasons - his renewal situation, his spokesperson unsettling the squad, and there not being an actual place for him in the team that works. He's very much a luxury player for us because defensively he's not great and creatively he can't match Bruno.
 

JPRouve

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I didnt say regularly but from time to time. I think we dont understand each other. All in all it has been a bad or a patchy relationship from the start. Neither Jose or Ole knew or know how exactly to use him and with what players to pair him with. Also neglecting the midfield hasnt exactly helped. But on the other hand he's not faultless in the whole story cause I've heard a whole array of excuses for his poor games till now.
Club's in a bit of a mess and he's in the middle of it. The fact he still hasnt signed points he probably wont and he shouldnt be pushed or begged to do it. It hasnt worked out, time to move on.
You didn't say from time to time but this post diminish the validity of your point because you are insinuating that he hasn't shone even from time to time which is shocking when you consider that you are talking about the 2016-2017 EL player of the tournament, in the PFA team of the year 18-19, he is either did something right or a lot of people don't understand Football.

And Pogba's fault is that he isn't a particularly complete midfielder, it's not new nor is it special. Teams generally fix these issues by building teams with players that complement each others, you try to hide flaws and accentuate qualities. If you don't have the right balance good coaches will find a way to expose your players particularly midfielders and defenders. It's not an excuse that's how Football has worked forever and why the best teams aren't made randomly.
 

kouroux

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You didn't say from time to time but this post diminish the validity of your point because you are insinuating that he hasn't shone even from time to time which is shocking when you consider that you are talking about the 2016-2017 EL player of the tournament, in the PFA team of the year 18-19, he is either did something right or a lot of people don't understand Football.

And Pogba's fault is that he isn't a particularly complete midfielder, it's not new nor is it special. Teams generally fix these issues by building teams with players that complement each others, you try to hide flaws and accentuate qualities. If you don't have the right balance good coaches will find a way to expose your players particularly midfielders and defenders. It's not an excuse that's how Football has worked forever and why the best teams aren't made randomly.
Well said. I couldn't agree any more
 

MrBest

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He played well yesterday, good pass into space for France first goal. I think he has been good this year so far for us, unfortunately i think he is playing out of place so we never really see what he does for France.
 

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You didn't say from time to time but this post diminish the validity of your point because you are insinuating that he hasn't shone even from time to time which is shocking when you consider that you are talking about the 2016-2017 EL player of the tournament, in the PFA team of the year 18-19, he is either did something right or a lot of people don't understand Football.

And Pogba's fault is that he isn't a particularly complete midfielder, it's not new nor is it special. Teams generally fix these issues by building teams with players that complement each others, you try to hide flaws and accentuate qualities. If you don't have the right balance good coaches will find a way to expose your players particularly midfielders and defenders. It's not an excuse that's how Football has worked forever and why the best teams aren't made randomly.
I just meant that in the sense that when he has a bad game it tends to be blamed on his midfield partners or position.
If you think I meant he hasnt shone from time to time you didnt understand me or I didnt put that how I meant to write it. Cause I'd be mad to think that.
Either way lets forget that part cause I was talking more about what's said about him then about his performances, I stick to the 2nd point of that post, that we bought him without our managers having a clue how to use and in what kind of team and tactics.
And you're right, he's not a complete midfielder and he hasnt been used in the way in which he can show his best abilities. But all in all it's not a black and white story, about United not complimenting him and him being blameless how it all turned out. Its like a bad relationship, the longer it goes it will get worse and worse.
 

laughtersassassin

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I know you love the guy and some of the things you wrote in the post are right but I'm not sure about this part. Especially when you have a player like Jorginho in the international level. Just one example.
Also not so sure about him being French best player over the years too but lets leave that cause we'll go in circles.
He is right up there for sure, no one can argue that

Just look at all of France's International tournaments. He is always brilliant. Always vital. More so than Kante who people tried to claim he was the only reason he played well....

To compare versus Jorginho. Pogba has been doing it for longer for example.

Jorginho did have a brilliant Euros.
 

JPRouve

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I just meant that in the sense that when he has a bad game it tends to be blamed on his midfield partners or position.
If you think I meant he hasnt shone from time to time you didnt understand me or I didnt put that how I meant to write it. Cause I'd be mad to think that.
Either way lets forget that part cause I was talking more about what's said about him then about his performances, I stick to the 2nd point of that post, that we bought him without our managers having a clue how to use and in what kind of team and tactics.
Pogba is probably the most criticized player in the world, so I don't really get this idea that it is his midfield partners that are blamed. People seem to conflate two separate issues, the fact that Pogba will make mistakes that are part of his identity for example he ball watches which means that he is liable to miss someone running behind him and he has the bad habit of demanding the ball even when he is under pressure. Now the point that people make about his teammates isn't about his mistakes, it's about the question concerning how you can accentuate his qualities and hide his flaws, that question applies to every single players on the field, for example no one would suggest that it's a good idea to put a slow CB next to Maguire or put a defensively weak CM next to Scholes.
 

Real Name

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Pogba is probably the most criticized player in the world, so I don't really get this idea that it is his midfield partners that are blamed. People seem to conflate two separate issues, the fact that Pogba will make mistakes that are part of his identity for example he ball watches which means that he is liable to miss someone running behind him and he has the bad habit of demanding the ball even when he is under pressure. Now the point that people make about his teammates isn't about his mistakes, it's about the question concerning how you can accentuate his qualities and hide his flaws, that question applies to every single players on the field, for example no one would suggest that it's a good idea to put a slow CB next to Maguire or put a defensively weak CM next to Scholes.
Most criticized in the world? Really?
It's that serious?
As for midfield partners, I was talking about this place. Not sure it's smart to take as an example though. :D
It's pretty simple, we're either buy a good DM to work with him or he'll go. I think he'll probably go cause he hasnt signed until now.
 

Real Name

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He is right up there for sure, no one can argue that

Just look at all of France's International tournaments. He is always brilliant. Always vital. More so than Kante who people tried to claim he was the only reason he played well....

To compare versus Jorginho. Pogba has been doing it for longer for example.

Jorginho did have a brilliant Euros.
We'll have to disagree on this one.
 

kouroux

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Most criticized in the world? Really?
It's that serious?
As for midfield partners, I was talking about this place. Not sure it's smart to take as an example though. :D
It's pretty simple, we're either buy a good DM to work with him or he'll go. I think he'll probably go cause he hasnt signed until now.
Honestly I struggle to see who is more scrutinized and criticized by him.
 

JPRouve

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Most criticized in the world? Really?
It's that serious?
As for midfield partners, I was talking about this place. Not sure it's smart to take as an example though. :D
It's pretty simple, we're either buy a good DM to work with him or he'll go. I think he'll probably go cause he hasnt signed until now.
Which player of similar caliber has been more critcized?
 

Real Name

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Honestly I struggle to see who is more scrutinized and criticized by him.
I think it's subjective. You read Pogba news the most and get the feeling he's the most scrutinized player in the world. I may be wrong of course but I think in the world part is a bit of over the top.
 

laughtersassassin

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We'll have to disagree on this one.
You don't think he has been up there with the best for France? Do tell?

Young Player of the tournament at the Euros they lost to Portugal in the final.

Absolutely brilliant in the World Cup.

Great in the last Euros too. Not sure what more he can do for France to be give credit tbh.

Man of the Match in the Final yesterday.

Also when I said always brilliant in my previous post I really mean almost always because no footballer is always brilliant. That is hyperbole of course.
 
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roonster09

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You don't need hindsight for some of them. Mkhi did come with some warnings, I recall. There were a lot of people who would have preferred Mane of Mkhi at the time. Pogba I felt was never worth 89 mil, and Bailey was a potential who actually was paying off up until his ankle break. He's just never been the same player since.

I think a lot of us, me included, needed hindsight to know Jose had a bad impact. Many did not see that coming. But Pogba's criticism is there because of many reasons - his renewal situation, his spokesperson unsettling the squad, and there not being an actual place for him in the team that works. He's very much a luxury player for us because defensively he's not great and creatively he can't match Bruno.
No, you want me to quote posts from Mane thread when we were linked with him in 2015 under Van Gaal? Or how many posters laughed at that signing with "They signed Mane, we signed Mkhi, levels" posts.

Every transfer comes with warmings sign, like how Sancho did it only in Bundesliga but didn't do much for England, Maguire lacks pace and Leicester conceded lot of goals, Salah was poor for Chelsea and a Chelsea reject, Lukaku has shit touch. At that time we signed arguably best players from 3 leagues. And many thought we were closer to PL title with manager like Jose and signing top players.

Pogba got lot of criticism which was justified and lot of unneeded or unjustified criticism for his hair style, Jose being a twat, our managers being shit.
 

Real Name

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Which player of similar caliber has been more critcized?
What are we walking about? The whole media in the world, English, French media, this forum, something fifth? How can you even conclude is someone criticized most in the world?
 

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You don't think he has been up there for France? Do tell?

Also when I say always I really mean almost always because no footballer is always brilliant. That is hyperbole of course.
Yeah I dont he has been vital and the best player in every French tournament.
 

JPRouve

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What are we walking about? The whole media in the world, English, French media, this forum, something fifth? How can you even conclude is someone criticized most in the world?
It's a specialized industry it's not that difficult, just answer the question who would you say is the most criticized player of similar caliber?
 

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It's a specialized industry it's not that difficult, just answer the question who would you say is the most criticized player of similar caliber?
I dont think there's one player who is most criticized one in the world.
 

JPRouve

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I dont think there's one player who is most criticized one in the world.
So you think that Pogba hasn't been targetted by fans or the press, he is treated like everyone else?
 

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So you think that Pogba hasn't been targetted by fans or the press, he is treated like everyone else?
Its one thing to be targeted by fans or the press, the other to say he's been most criticized player in the world.

Also I'm curious about him being targeted by the fans part?
 

JPRouve

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Its one thing to be targeted by fans or the press, the other to say he's been most criticized player in the world.

Also I'm curious about him being targeted by the fans part?
You didn't answer the questions and yes Pogba has been targeted by fans whether we are talking about United or France.
 

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You didn't answer the questions and yes Pogba has been targeted by fans whether we are talking about United or France.
Yes, I think he's treated like everyone else.
When was he targeted by the fans if you dont count 2 or 3 fans who abused him (when was it) at Old Trafford or 1 time (or 2) when he was jeered from the stands.
 

JPRouve

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Yes, I think he's treated like everyone else.
When was he targeted by the fans if you dont count 2 or 3 fans who abused him (when was it) at Old Trafford or 1 time (or 2) when he was jeered from the stands.
By targeted I mean that he is specifically looked at and isolated which happens every single times his team doesn't win. And even in a stadium Pogba was actually booed while playing for France before 2016 Euro and the same is true online. So to claim that when he has a bad game the blame is put on his teammates is very strange.
 

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By targeted I mean that he is specifically looked at and isolated which happens every single times his team doesn't win. And even in a stadium Pogba was actually booed while playing for France before 2016 Euro and the same is true online. So to claim that when he has a bad game the blame is put on his teammates is very strange.
You mean here at Redcafe or in general. Cause here he's blamed and targeted but gets lauded in the same amount or his poor game gets a teammate excuse sometimes.
I dont know what happens generally online, like in Facebook comments or similar and tend to avoid those cause it's a right cesspit.
 

VP89

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No, you want me to quote posts from Mane thread when we were linked with him in 2015 under Van Gaal? Or how many posters laughed at that signing with "They signed Mane, we signed Mkhi, levels" posts.

Every transfer comes with warmings sign, like how Sancho did it only in Bundesliga but didn't do much for England, Maguire lacks pace and Leicester conceded lot of goals, Salah was poor for Chelsea and a Chelsea reject, Lukaku has shit touch. At that time we signed arguably best players from 3 leagues. And many thought we were closer to PL title with manager like Jose and signing top players.

Pogba got lot of criticism which was justified and lot of unneeded or unjustified criticism for his hair style, Jose being a twat, our managers being shit.
I don't need any quotes, I remember the consensus at the time. I wanted Mane myself and I recall not being the only one. There were a few posters who loved the look of Mane and saw him as a safer, sure hit in the PL. There were certainly contradictory posts, too. Even those who wanted Mane weren't unhappy with Mkhi, it's just a case of knowing that Mane was definitely the play. As was Fabinho, but water under the bridge on those ones.

Re. Pogba, sure some criticism was over the top but that's the case with every marquee signing. He comes with an image of his own extravagant making and will be under the microscope more. It's normal. Especially for random things like weird haircuts or style choices. Loads of us mugged off Depay, Icardi, Lingard etc.
 

anant

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Pogba will shine if he's the garnishing on top of a well functioning team, not the main gear. At France, he's having a pretty hard working side - the midfielders are work horses, Benzema (to a certain degree) and Griezmann help out with the defensive side as well. It's only Mbappe who doesn't have a high defensive workrate.

Similar situation was there at Juve as well. However, at Utd, he's not had that - Greenwood, CR7 hardly ever would help out the defence, Rashford and Sancho help out occasionally and when you mostly have 2 forwards (sometimes 3) who don't help out defensively on top of a midfielder who doesn't like doing defensive work/ not good at it, the side will always lack balance and the players will look worse.

Even though we rely on chaos-ball - where most of our players thrive - the chaos needs to be under our control and with multiple players being not so good defensively, it's always going to be a problem unless you find another Kante
 

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I don't need any quotes, I remember the consensus at the time. I wanted Mane myself and I recall not being the only one. There were a few posters who loved the look of Mane and saw him as a safer, sure hit in the PL. There were certainly contradictory posts, too. Even those who wanted Mane weren't unhappy with Mkhi, it's just a case of knowing that Mane was definitely the play. As was Fabinho, but water under the bridge on those ones.

Re. Pogba, sure some criticism was over the top but that's the case with every marquee signing. He comes with an image of his own extravagant making and will be under the microscope more. It's normal. Especially for random things like weird haircuts or style choices. Loads of us mugged off Depay, Icardi, Lingard etc.
Of course there were few who wanted Mane but the general point was Mkhi at the same price was much better signing.

Icardi is a twat and gets shit for something he did, which has nothing to do with his hairstyle.

Pogba is a player with strengths and weakness but the amount of shit he gets is weird, making up random reasons just to have a go at him. Who knew having a hair cut of one's choice would make people lose their shit.
 

Jeppers7

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With benefit of hindsight you can say all of them were flops. When Pogba was signed, we signed a promising CB who looked level above anyone we have, arguably best player from Bundesliga, best player from French league. We also had much younger Mata and very highly rated Martial who had brilliant season, Herrera who was rated as our best CM and even now he is rated as much better than Fred, McTominay. Then the magic touch of Jose to turn everything into shit.

When Bruno was signed, Rashford was injured. So we had James, AP, Mata, Lingard occupying 3 positions behind striker. Greenwood was barely a regular player at that time.

You can flip the question, when was your confidence of winning league higher, in 2016 summer when Jose was signed along with Zlatan, Mkhi, Pogba or in Jan 2020 when we 5th in the table after 2/3rd of the season, 14 points behind Leicester and level on points with teams like Wolves, Sheffield United with Ole as manager who had no track record of success at top leagues?

Ofcourse there is evidence of his impact, the position in the table and the teams we were competing in Jan 2020 compared to now. Bruno is also criticized like Pogba or any other player. His thread after every game is hard to read.

Yeah Pogba gets more criticism for some weird, maybe because people see him as a defensive liability when we have messed up the balance of the team.
Sorry….to clarify….you think Pogba joined a better side than Bruno?
 

VP89

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Of course there were few who wanted Mane but the general point was Mkhi at the same price was much better signing.

Icardi is a twat and gets shit for something he did, which has nothing to do with his hairstyle.

Pogba is a player with strengths and weakness but the amount of shit he gets is weird, making up random reasons just to have a go at him. Who knew having a hair cut of one's choice would make people lose their shit.
I don't think Mikhi was a better signing though - I think the moment Mane to Liverpool seemed a likelihood the mood toward Mane had turned to a "ah he's not that good anyway", as it almost always would with players joining our rivals. The Mane thread was full of momentum and praise long before Mkhi was even linked with us. Mane, VVD, Fabinho are players I recall being massively rated before their links to Liverpool.

Anyway regarding Pogba, I don't think people lost shit because of his haircut outside of Souness. They lost their shit because he was playing poorly and then any social media or loud hairstyles just rub salt into their view. Social media perception is really subjective and people can express themselves however they want, but they will also be judged by various different types too. But it's not his dancing or his hairstyles or anything else that made people lose their shit, it's the performances on the pitch or him constantly failing to muzzle his agent.

If he played well and did all the fun stuff on the side, no one would bat an eye lid. So it's clearly the pitch performances that grinds people the most. Everything else is just a byproduct of his brand and having lots of attention on him as a result.
 

Jeppers7

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Yes, I think he's treated like everyone else.
When was he targeted by the fans if you dont count 2 or 3 fans who abused him (when was it) at Old Trafford or 1 time (or 2) when he was jeered from the stands.
I’ve never seen another player get scrutinised for losing a player at a corner. It happens all the time when a team scores from a corner. When Pogba loses a player from a corner it’s the entire halftime conversation. If Pogba doesn’t track a runner or loses possession in the other teams half its scrutinised. The game France lost in the euros he won the ball from a player on the edge of their box for Frances second goal…..no mention of that was made or would have ever been made. Contrast that to the last goal in that game….then factor in Pogba’s performance in the game.
 

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Sorry….to clarify….you think Pogba joined a better side than Bruno?
You want with benefit of hindsight or without?

Btw you didn't answer, at what point you thought we were closer to winning the league? 2016 or 2020?
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
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He hasn't and that is not perception or delusion. He does not play like that for Utd. Never has and never will.
It's a delusion as he does play like that. It just doesn't happen very often.