Isn't he also a bit slow to be a top class centre back in today's game?
Mind you, Fergie certainly seemed to rate him.
4
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 24
- Clean sheets
- 7
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 3
Mind you, Fergie certainly seemed to rate him.
No. Both he and Smalling are fast for CBs
He played about 50% (or maybe more) of his games at Blackburn in midfield so I don't buy that he's a "6-18 yard box centre back", whatever that is.
Oh yes, Jones is no slouch and I would say that Smalling is pretty fecking fast - not just for a CB.
I think Jones is being underated here a bit. I think he has the capability to be a superb centre back. Injuries have hampered his progress but even as it stands he's still very young and has loads of time to develop and mature. Like Smalling and Rafael he has all the ability in the world but needs to stop getting injured.
Fair enough if he did. Though he made his biggest impression as a centre back in the bigger games. And when he played midfield it was in a holding role, in a 'backs to the wall' style Blackburn side. Playing as a holding midfielder for them hardly showcases an array of skills.
I'm pretty sure he was effectively a third centre back in their set up.
What I mean by '6-18 yard box defender' is that he's the type usually playing for a mid table team - one who is best when he 'gets his head on it' and blocks shots almost all game, due to his committed/guns blazing style.
But I'm not convinced he's a well rounded centre back for a more forward thinking team.
And usually when he's played in midfield (even under Sir Alex), he's there to 'do a job'.
I like him, and think he has good qualities - I'd keep him as a utility player for sure. And he can play plenty of games with that role.
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Sorry, I don't understand how you can be pretty sure he was a "3rd centre back" when he played in midfield yet you clearly don't really remember him playing there. And he's played a number of games for us in midfield under Fergie where he was (inexplicably) our most advanced midfielder. He's a very decent footballer, albeit a bit like a giant terrifying, retarded doberman puppy at times.
At Blackburn, he made his name as an all action defensive midfielder sitting in front of, and protecting, the back four.
Who said I don't remember him playing there? I didn't realise it was more than 50% (if that is the case) but then again, I didn't go out of my way to watch Blackburn unless they were playing the better sides/us.
I agree he's a "decent" footballer, but I don't think he's intelligent/good enough to play as a centre back for a forward thinking team. A good utility player here, or a centre back for a team who do more 'relentless heading and blocking shots' where anywhere will do.
Some think he has all the potential in the world. I happen not to.
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Those debating Jones' pace; He is quick when in full sprint and in fact over the first 10 yards or so for a CB, but where he falls a bit short is his sluggishness when turning on his heels and that is why he always has to commit to a last ditch challenge or looks like he's been easily beaten. If he can train his turn of pace, i.e work on snap strength in his thighs, hips whatever, he can still become a top CB. And of course one would expect his positioning to improve with age and experience. There are rarely young CB's who display Maldiniesque intelligence and positioning under the age of 30, don't forget how many feck ups Rio got himself into in his early career with us.
Nah. Lets write him off at 22. He will be forever injuring himself and his team mates. We can all be certain he won't realise his potential. right?
Bryan Robson will be disappointed to read that.
Since joining United.
2011-12 - 41 games
2012-13 - 24 games
2013-14 - 39 games
Playing 40 games in a season is very respectable(Rafael played 40, once, in his best season), that doesn't include the matches he wasn't played in too so he was probably available another couple of games. So people are overplaying his injury problems, he completed two out three seasons so far.
2011-12 - 41 games
2012-13 - 24 games
2013-14 - 39 games
Playing 40 games in a season is very respectable(Rafael played 40, once, in his best season), that doesn't include the matches he wasn't played in too so he was probably available another couple of games. So people are overplaying his injury problems, he completed two out three seasons so far.
The problem with that is those games came with breaks. He should now be playing every week, which takes it's toll.
I've not given up on him unlike the other two. He's still young enough to get over these silly injuries.
an "all action defensive midfielder" in a defensive teams is a different job compared to be a CB in an attacking team. He is lacking tactical awareness. As a CB its not about flying into tackles, but about positioning yourself in a way so you dont need to take unnecessary risks. Good CBs only commit themselves into 1v1, when they have to or when there is cover. Its the problem that Kompany has sometimes.
I think even that part has been largely overplayed and only applies on 12-13. Rio Ferdinand played roughly 40 games per season in average in 8 out of his 11 seasons here(the other 3 he played "all" 50). After three seasons at United Rio had pretty much identical stats as Jones had after his first three seasons.
Agreed, and that was basically my point about "essentially a third centre back".
A defensive midfielder in a Blackburn side does less with the ball than a centre back in a top/forward-thinking side.
Blackburn spent half their games blocking shots and heading the ball out. So playing in midfield for Blackburn doesn't really prove to me that he's not a 'get blocks on it' type defender.
He played in midfield for us whenever we expected to not have much of the ball, and needed an extra blocker and physical presence.
He's decent with the ball, but I'm not yet convinced he's more than a Blackburn style defender.
He was our best CB at the start of the season and is still young. He frustrates everyone, me included, but I can't see him leaving in the short term future.
If LVG decides otherwise from the moment reinforcements arrive, I sure wouldn't be weeping on Jones' fate because the big guy would have dug his own grave himself. I just don't see him becoming a genuine talent if he doesn't develop the most important a footballer needs nowadays: bloody fecking brains! I'm sure many people already mentioned how many times he throws himself into rash challenges instead of looking for another solution in the play; in today's football, it is unacceptable.
Some of his injuries though are self inflicted in the way he plays and they come at really bad times. He needs to play smarter especially now that we are wanting him to be a every game starter. Like the way he injured himself prior to the 2nd leg against Madrid a couple seasons ago. He can't be going down every few games, even if it means missing just a game or two as it hurts and chance of having a settled back line.
Is he fit yet?
Nope.
Philosophy says No
Smalling is faster than Jones and he's the fastest CB in the PL. Well at least he's the only United CB that is on record with hitting a top speed that put him among the fastest players in the PL. In 2012 Smalling was joint third fasted player in the league and top 5 in the world. He even outpaced Ronaldo and Rooney's records for that year.Slow? Really? He's easily our quickest centre back...
There are lots of issues with Jones but pace isn't one of them.
Which one is fitter? That's the pertinent question.
It would be a shame if neither of Jones, Smalling and Evans can make it here because of their fragile bodies.
It would be a shame if neither of Jones, Smalling and Evans can make it here because of their fragile bodies.
He's a maniac that needs to settle down. He also has poor positional awareness.
I actually thought his midfield performances were pretty good. I don't trust him at the back yet.
I actually thought his midfield performances were pretty good. I don't trust him at the back yet.
I can't believe anyone thinks Smalling is quicker. Look at the difference in pace between him and Rooney in whatever goal it was against Leicester...you really believe these "records"?
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You just know that the moment they sign for other teams they will post exemplary fitness records. I'm starting to believe that we are cursed.c.
Interesting post. Could be more down to desire? Rooney was really busting a gut there, Smalling was probably lazy.
Also a bit deceptive as Rooney's path to the ball & player is considerably less.
Agree with this. Smalling has a greater distance to cover and actually starts/finishes running later/earlier than Rooney does.
I don't think Nani has even had a niggle at Sporting. fecker couldn't keep fit for more than 3 games in the last few years here.
If you look at the angles of the runs there's no basis for comparison. Look where Smalling starts from. Personally I very much doubt if Rooney could keep pace with Smalling in a straight sprint.
Also any suggestion that either one of Jones or Smalling are anything less the rapid is pretty laughable. I don't get how a United fan could even think that. They're both extremely quick. It reminds me of the "is Welbeck the slowest striker thread" from a few years ago. Madness.
I don't think so. What will hold him back from being a top class CB is his recklessness. Phil has very good athleticism, can read the game well and has no fear of the ball at his feet, but the man suffers from momentary bouts of madness where all he does is injure himself. If we can somehow fix his heads gone moments we've suddenly got a very good CB. And he's still pretty young.
You clearly don't understand how top speed works. I can easily pull another video with Smalling running much quicker than that.
Well said.
One would expects those brain farts to have gone down over the years of working alongside some of the best defenders of their own generation, but this isn't the case so far. When it comes to having a good footballing brain, it's usually either you have it or you don't. The more it goes, the more I'm inclined to put Jones into the second category. Knowing how the game is evolving, top clubs are less and less inclined to have defenders who have consistent brain farts in them.
Jones would have done well in the 1990s or even in the 1980s, but top clubs don't play that kind of football anymore.
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They actually have and he hasn't really had a consistent run at CB due to being needed everywhere else, his own injuries and competiions. He was very good and our best player for first few games in a back 3 this season before got injured for England and then returned with a error vs West Brom with a new partner in Rojo before getting injured again.
Infact even last season amidst the shambles at a personal level he improved even though wasn't consistent. Had some good big game performances as well in different positions in a struggling team.
Also, he is only 22 still eligible for U21 euros next year. Some of the slack he is given as a roving looney and what not is way over the top at times.