[Pexbo]

I don't know if this is genuine criticism at Jones for the goal, but it really wasn't Jones at fault. The shape of the entire team from that throw in is an absolute mess. Jones (or anyone) had to be in that channel incase the throw in was played short and Routledge got in behind McNair, which was very possible as McNair was having a mare. Instead, Shelvey was given all the time in the world to play in a cross. Blind has dropped in whilst Jones covers the channel.

Herrera really should have been closer to Shelvey, and perhaps Fellaini should have dropped in to that channel as well, as it's wide open. After that, it's Shaw at fault for losing Ki so easily.

From being marked and Shaw being goal side...

...to Ki getting the right side of Shaw and finishing nicely.

To be fair, it's a great cross, and Ki's run and finish were superb. Herrera and Shaw should have done better though. The cross was avoidable if Shelvey wasn't given a fortnight to pick out his ball. Ki's run could have tracked better. Shaw should be first to that all day long to smash it out for a throw or even a corner.

The ideal thing to happen in that situation (and it would have with better communication earlier) was for Jones to pick up McNair's man and tell McNair to pressure the thrower and Herrera to get tight to Shelvy.

As it was, most of the blame can be attributed to Herrera there who went to the thrower and left Shelvy with acres of time and space to cross. If Herrera closes down Shelvy both Shelvy and McNair's man either have to try and get the ball back to the thrower under pressure or hold up the ball which gives the central defence vital seconds to organise themselves.

 

[kouroux]

But was he better than Zidane?

He definitely was at certain things.

 

[ChrisG11]

I hadn't watched the game and came into the thread post match and expected some sort of horror performance from this reaction. Having just watched it, I can only think of one thing he actually did bad and that was a poor back pass that went for a corner.

To blame him for the goal is moronic, anyone who gets into the space Jones is in has a far better chance of creating a scoring opportunity than Jonjo whipping one in from deep. It was slack from Herrera, but the cross was telegraphed and everyone in the middle was marked up. If Smalling was where Jones was, would we seriously be having any debate? The amount of biased, agenda driven half wits in this thread is completely absurd, I really am genuinely surprised that no one had blamed him for the 2nd goal either, the lengths some posters go to in order to perceive his performance as poor.

Honestly, the amount of drivel in this section of the forum astounds me with each passing game.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I hadn't watched the game and came into the thread post match and expected some sort of horror performance from this reaction. Having just watched it, I can only think of one thing he actually did bad and that was a poor back pass that went for a corner.

To blame him for the goal is moronic, anyone who gets into the space Jones is in has a far better chance of creating a scoring opportunity than Jonjo whipping one in from deep. It was slack from Herrera, but the cross was telegraphed and everyone in the middle was marked up. If Smalling was where Jones was, would we seriously be having any debate? The amount of biased, agenda driven half wits in this thread is completely absurd, I really am genuinely surprised that no one had blamed him for the 2nd goal either, the lengths some posters go to in order to perceive his performance as poor.

Honestly, the amount of drivel in this section of the forum astounds me with each passing game.

This. Unfortunately, it looks like Jones is the scapegoat this season.

 

[surf]

Jones is young but he has plenty of experience, over 150 games for Blackburn and United, which is an average of over 30 games a season with premier league clubs since he was 18. At this point he should be coming into his prime. He looked special when he first arrived at United as a 19-year-old and I would have predicted him to be one of the mainstays of the team by now. Hope he can emerge soon as the first choice player and leader that we expected.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Don't think he was to blame for the smash and grab Swansea had against us but I still think he's behind Smalling.

 

[ZDwyr]

Don't think he was to blame for the smash and grab Swansea had against us but I still think he's behind Smalling.

This. I don't rate Jones that highly, but some are overly critical in their analysis of him. He's still behind Smalling (and should be dropped for him) but I don't think the Swansea match was that bad of a performance.

 

[Pexbo]

I think Rojo plays much better alongside Smalling. He's a calming influence. Jones and Rojo are too similar.

 

[Getsme]

Without wanting to start a whole debate about it, I feel some are criticising Jones simply because he is playing ahead of Smalling. I'm not saying that's the right or wrong choice just that he us getting criticised for not actually doing much wrong.

 

[Dans]

To be clear, I posted the photo merely as a discussion point. I wasn't criticising him, merely pointing out that the CB is a long way away from where it's all happening.

I take 2DaSilvas point though - thanks for posting up the other photos. It does seem like as a team, defensively, they seem to suffer from the odd huge collective brain fart. That said, we have a decent enough defensive record over the past couple of months and I'd say our creativity and scoring is probably more of a problem. However, my view that Jones hasn't progressed as one would hope remains. Whether that's Ferguson's fault as one poster suggested, is open for debate. The fact is that to date he hasn't lived up to his potential.

We do need a leader in defence though - all our defenders would benefit from having an experienced CB to marshal them. I am not sure Hummels is that guy though.

 

[devilish]

To be clear, I posted the photo merely as a discussion point. I wasn't criticising him, merely pointing out that the CB is a long way away from where it's all happening.

I take 2DaSilvas point though - thanks for posting up the other photos. It does seem like as a team, defensively, they seem to suffer from the odd huge collective brain fart. That said, we have a decent enough defensive record over the past couple of months and I'd say our creativity and scoring is probably more of a problem. However, my view that Jones hasn't progressed as one would hope remains. Whether that's Ferguson's fault as one poster suggested, is open for debate. The fact is that to date he hasn't lived up to his potential.

We do need a leader in defence though - all our defenders would benefit from having an experienced CB to marshal them. I am not sure Hummels is that guy though.

I'd agree with you if they were all 21 year olds which is not the case. Evans in 27, Jones is 23, Smalling is 25 and Rafael is 24. All these defenders have been at United for a number of years, they have played with some of the best defenders in the world and have CL experience. In football terms they are veterans. Let put things into perspective. Rio was merely 24 when he singlehandedly sorted our defense, Gaz was around 21 years of age when he became first teamer with us while Stam was around Smalling age when we won the treble. Mind I am avoiding the child prodigies, players like Maldini or Baresi who were absolutely brilliant at a very young age.

Now if we're aiming for a world class defender capable of carrying the rest (just as Rio did with Mickey and Wes Brown) then yeah that's the right strategy to use. However I believe that United deserves better then that.

 

[Sam]

He's absolutely awful. A defender who brings nothing but panic and confusion to a defence. Constantly out of position, poor in the air, consistent lapses of concentration, no organisational skills...average average average.

Him and Rojo are a defensive partnership made in hell.

 

[Loublaze]

He's absolutely awful. A defender who brings nothing but panic and confusion to a defence. Constantly out of position, poor in the air, consistent lapses of concentration, no organisational skills...average average average.

Him and Rojo are a defensive partnership made in hell.

He's a brainless player who's simply too impulsive. After watching him against Swansea I wonder if now he's in a different phase, from over impulsive to the point of being an injury threat to himself to over timid because he really played within himself.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Never got the massive Jones overrating on here. When we bought him from Blackburn I wasn't particularly happy as I didn't rate him when he was there. He just looks constantly clueless and I've completely lost faith in him. His only saving grave is the fact that he's only 23. On that basis alone, I would keep him on as a squad player for another season, anyway. He can't be a starter here next season.

 

[Beachryan]

Problem is for me a centre back needs to have one of several attributes to work in a partnership at the top level (preferrably alongside a player with the other attributes):
- Incredible positional sense and organisational skills: The stereotyped Italian-style defender. Always in the right place, barely have to make tackles. Own the offside line, and make others better with good communications.
- Physical monster: The 'Vidic' model of player - wins 90% of balls in the air, attackers are terrified of him and he can clatter players fairly and without breaking himself.
- Speed merchant: Can make up for mistakes with outrageous pace, more of a requirement for full backs but never hurts for a CB
- Mr Reliable: Maybe not an 8/10 player, but delivers 40 7/10 performances in a season. Can build around him because you know he'll be there.

We've had all types of defenders over the years, but they've always pretty much fallen into one of those categories (or more, like Rio). Jones just isn't that good at anything. He's short, disorganised, rash and can't play 3 matches in a row.

It sucks but we'd do well to get rid if someone is after him. I just don't see the potential for him to 'become' world class. He's not that young anymore, has been in the same setup for almost 5 years and really hasn't improved at all.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Jones is strong in the air, has great pace, intercepts a lot of passes and is physically strong. Completely unfair to say he is not good at anything.

 

[ZDwyr]

Jones is strong in the air, has great pace, intercepts a lot of passes and is physically strong. Completely unfair to say he is not good at anything.

I'm not a huge Jones fan but I agree with some of this. He is definitely quick, fast enough to recover from bad positioning anyway. Not sure I'd classify him as "strong in the air" IMO he is weak for a CB at that. He is physically strong though.

 

[Sam]

Jones is strong in the air, has great pace, intercepts a lot of passes and is physically strong. Completely unfair to say he is not good at anything.

He's crap in the air. He also spends 90% of the match out of position.

He's fast, and strong, I'll give him that.

 

[ChrisG11]

In terms of winning headers he's not fantastic but you'll rarely see his man have a free header, he's incredibly good at dealing with crosses into our box. Also, it's his awareness of diagonal runners in behind him that's the problem regarding positioning, apart from that it is usually spot on. He never gets credit for how good he is in 1v1 situations either, very rarely gets skinned.

 

[Sam]

In terms of winning headers he's not fantastic but you'll rarely see his man have a free header, he's incredibly good at dealing with crosses into our box. Also, it's his awareness of diagonal runners in behind him that's the problem regarding positioning, apart from that it is usually spot on. He never gets credit for how good he is in 1v1 situations either, very rarely gets skinned.

He really, really isn't. Infact, I'd say that is the main issue with a Jones/Rojo partnership. Neither are particularity good at dealing with crosses. The Swansea match showed that up quite considerably. Thats why Smalling should be in there for now, he's far from perfect himself, but he's generally very good at dealing with high balls.

As for being 'spot on' with his positioning, I couldn't disagree more. He's constantly running out of position chasing the ball, or switching off. He plays like a 12 year old playing Sunday league just running aimlessly around the pitch. Go and watch a video of Rio/Vidic/Terry etc etc, they very rarely get dragged around the pitch towards the ball, in the way Jones does.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

He really, really isn't. Infact, I'd say that is the main issue with a Jones/Rojo partnership. Neither are particularity good at dealing with crosses. The Swansea match showed that up quite considerably. Thats why Smalling should be in there for now, he's far from perfect himself, but he's generally very good at dealing with high balls.

As for being 'spot on' with his positioning, I couldn't disagree more. He's constantly running out of position chasing the ball, or switching off. He plays like a 12 year old playing Sunday league just running aimlessly around the pitch. Go and watch a video of Rio/Vidic/Terry etc etc, they very rarely get dragged around the pitch towards the ball, in the way Jones does.

Those are arguably the three best CBs in the history of the PL. Of course Jones positioning is not as strong as those three.

 

[Sam]

Those are arguably the three best CBs in the history of the PL. Of course Jones positioning is not as strong as those three.

Obviously I'm not expecting it to be as good as that ilk of player, but constantly getting dragged around the pitch or drawn towards the ball is so amateurish, and something that top defenders don't do.

 

[Loublaze]

Never got the massive Jones overrating on here. When we bought him from Blackburn I wasn't particularly happy as I didn't rate him when he was there. He just looks constantly clueless and I've completely lost faith in him. His only saving grave is the fact that he's only 23. On that basis alone, I would keep him on as a squad player for another season, anyway. He can't be a starter here next season.

His age shouldnt even matter. He's been a first team player since he was 18. Thats 5 years, 155 games and he still hasn't learned much. Varane, Laporte and Marquinhos are younger and much better.

 

[Getsme]

His age shouldnt even matter. He's been a first team player since he was 18. Thats 5 years, 155 games and he still hasn't learned much. Varane, Laporte and Marquinhos are younger and much better.

Better than all our defenders.

 

[Robbie Boy]

His age shouldnt even matter. He's been a first team player since he was 18. Thats 5 years, 155 games and he still hasn't learned much. Varane, Laporte and Marquinhos are younger and much better.

Yeah it's really the only defence I can find for him. I was talking about keeping him on as a squad player but I certainly wouldn't care if he left.

 

[tombombadil]

Just to play devils advocate

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...mitted/cards_for_bad_tackles/total_duels_%#90

 

[ChrisG11]

He really, really isn't. Infact, I'd say that is the main issue with a Jones/Rojo partnership. Neither are particularity good at dealing with crosses. The Swansea match showed that up quite considerably. Thats why Smalling should be in there for now, he's far from perfect himself, but he's generally very good at dealing with high balls.

As for being 'spot on' with his positioning, I couldn't disagree more. He's constantly running out of position chasing the ball, or switching off. He plays like a 12 year old playing Sunday league just running aimlessly around the pitch. Go and watch a video of Rio/Vidic/Terry etc etc, they very rarely get dragged around the pitch towards the ball, in the way Jones does.

You'll very very rarely see Jones lose his man in the box, some of his diving headers when he's facing his own goal and his tracking of runners towards the front post is brilliant. It's fine to say Smalling is better because he's tall and wins aerial duels, but it was only the other game where he lost Danny Ings. I understand what you're saying, that we don't get the ball clear effectively when balls are floated into the box from deep, but my point was more towards dangerous whipped in crosses from the wings.

Let's not exaggerate, and let's give him credit because in terms of getting tight to his man and winning the ball he's very, very good. The problem is that his decision making in that situation is sometimes poor because he believes he can win every ball and that's also where his awareness of what's behind him comes into play. That's something that he'll have to learn through experience, and he's got plenty of time yet.

 

[ottosec]

It worries me that he is seen undroppable by LVG.

 

[Stadjer]

You'll very very rarely see Jones lose his man in the box, some of his diving headers when he's facing his own goal and his tracking of runners towards the front post is brilliant. It's fine to say Smalling is better because he's tall and wins aerial duels, but it was only the other game where he lost Danny Ings. I understand what you're saying, that we don't get the ball clear effectively when balls are floated into the box from deep, but my point was more towards dangerous whipped in crosses from the wings.

Let's not exaggerate, and let's give him credit because in terms of getting tight to his man and winning the ball he's very, very good. The problem is that his decision making in that situation is sometimes poor because he believes he can win every ball and that's also where his awareness of what's behind him comes into play. That's something that he'll have to learn through experience, and he's got plenty of time yet.

He will need to stay fit though... all those injuries didnt help his development.

I like Phil Jones, as a foreigner he looks like a typical English guy to me. He's big, strong, and he doesnt look that smart (most English people of his age i see are from the MTV program Geordie Shore though...) I dont want him to leave the club but if he cant stay fit he may have to leave. Hopefully he can overcome his injury problems because i still think he has what it takes to be a good central defender. People forget he's still young for a central defender.

 

[Stadjer]

His age shouldnt even matter. He's been a first team player since he was 18. Thats 5 years, 155 games and he still hasn't learned much. Varane, Laporte and Marquinhos are younger and much better.

in his defense, he played a lot of those matches in midfield or at right back.

 

[Loublaze]

in his defense, he played a lot of those matches in midfield or at right back.

That's a poor excuse. He played more games in his natural position.

 

[Getsme]

Stat's don't tell the whole story but.......

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[ZDwyr]

The stat is probably a bit misleading. He was playing a lot early on when we really struggled and I don't think that was down to him necessarily. Having said that, clearly the team performs better with Smalling. Hopefully he is back against Sunderland but I think it will be Jones.

 

[::sonny::]

Stat's don't tell the whole story but.......

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

In this case tells the whole story

We have a pub team defence

 

[Classical Mechanic]

In this case tells the whole story

We have a pib team defence

I think that you have been spending too much time in the pib!

 

[Sam]

Stat's don't tell the whole story but.......

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[ThanksBoss26]

Stat's don't tell the whole story but.......

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

The 31% will include the Burnley home game as well when he went off after five minutes!

 

[Kakeru]

Stat's don't tell the whole story but.......

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

For me, it says more than enough to me. He is the kind of player who plays a style that is totally inappropriate for a team that aspires to be at the top in a specific era.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Am I the only one who thinks he was the better player in his first two seasons? I think the majority genuinely tought he could become one of the greatest defenders in the PL, 19 year and putting in such performances. Playing him out of position, injuries have really had a negative effect.

 

[Sam]

Am I the only one who thinks he was the better player in his first two seasons? I think the majority genuinely tought he could become one of the greatest defenders in the PL, 19 year and putting in such performances. Playing him out of position, injuries have really had a negative effect.

At best, he's stagnated, at worst, he's regressed.