Rugby Union 21/22/23 Discussion | RWC time!

Status
Not open for further replies.

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
This is the official line up. Not surprised Libbok is playing, but I think it will cost us in the end. The Faf call though, very surprising - wonder if he picked up a knock and isn't 100%.

Every one of our XV will have to play out of their skin, France at home will get the 50/50s so I'm expecting a Rassie rant if we lose :lol:
Oh fair enough, thought I’d seen this as a leaked one on Reddit.

Can Willemse kick? Cos no Faf puts more pressure on Libbok. I’m glad they’ve gone with him though, as a neutral SA’s running game with him is so much better
 

Traub

Full Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
10,241
Oh fair enough, thought I’d seen this as a leaked one on Reddit.

Can Willemse kick? Cos no Faf puts more pressure on Libbok. I’m glad they’ve gone with him though, as a neutral SA’s running game with him is so much better
I have a bad feeling it's going to be a merry-go-round on the kicking.

Having said that, it looks like the game plan will be to blitz France early, take a sizeable lead into the last 20-30mins, and then bring on the 2019 style forward game plan to close out the game. I think it's the right approach as if it's a tight game with 20mins to go, France will be unstoppable at home.
 

Zoo

Full Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
29,860
To be fair to Gatland he does go
on to say that he agrees with the sentiment regarding the timing of the draw.
 
Last edited:

Xaviesta

Full Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
11,801
Location
Camp Nou
Supports
Barcelona
I watched ''Premiership rugby: mud sweat and tears'', a two part Amazon Prime doco going behind the scenes of the two semi finals and the final of last season's Gallagher Premiership. In episode one, they focussed a bit on the journey of Northampton Saints loose forward Lewis Ludlam. In the build up to Northampton's semi final away at Saracens, Ludlam's father said ''I would love it if we beat them'' in a manner that Kevin Keegan would be proud of.
 

JJ12

Predicted Portugal, Italy to win Euro 2016, 2020
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
10,947
Location
Wales
Wales
New Zealand
England
South Africa
 

The Purley King

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
4,286
Big mistake by England bring Farrell back at fly half instead of ford.
Should still have enough to get past Fiji but not happy with that selection.
Some really good games this weekend!! Could be a northern hemisphere final 4…..
 

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
I have a bad feeling it's going to be a merry-go-round on the kicking.

Having said that, it looks like the game plan will be to blitz France early, take a sizeable lead into the last 20-30mins, and then bring on the 2019 style forward game plan to close out the game. I think it's the right approach as if it's a tight game with 20mins to go, France will be unstoppable at home.
I don’t think you’ll manage to blitz that Shaun Edwards defence. When have France looked in trouble in a big match in recent years.

Away at the Aviva in the 6N
For about 20 minutes at the start of the second half at home to the kiwis (which they went on to win)

Otherwise I can’t remember a time recently where I though they might concede several tries in quick succession
 

Camy89

Love Island obsessive
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
7,529
Location
Glasgow
Ireland
Wales
Fiji
France

Hopefully the final 4. Would be all behind Fiji doing it (but they won’t) closely followed by the Irish.
 

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
Ireland
Wales
Fiji
France

Hopefully the final 4. Would be all behind Fiji doing it (but they won’t) closely followed by the Irish.
I mean, Fiji are cool anyway, and we’re kind of used to it….but it really does feel like the entire world will be rooting for Fiji come the weekend :lol:
 

Traub

Full Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
10,241
I don’t think you’ll manage to blitz that Shaun Edwards defence. When have France looked in trouble in a big match in recent years.

Away at the Aviva in the 6N
For about 20 minutes at the start of the second half at home to the kiwis (which they went on to win)

Otherwise I can’t remember a time recently where I though they might concede several tries in quick succession
I think you're right, but we have to try something. I think it will be an easy-ish game for France, but then again I thought we would get hammered by England in the 2019 final. So I know nothing.
 

Camy89

Love Island obsessive
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
7,529
Location
Glasgow
I mean, Fiji are cool anyway, and we’re kind of used to it….but it really does feel like the entire world will be rooting for Fiji come the weekend :lol:
I mean. Yeah. England are the team everyone loves to hate.

Taking off my bias Scottish hat, I’m trying to think why. Farrell has a really annoying face and kick routine. Chris Ashton was a cocky prick that no one else liked.

Watching the downbeat pundits try and remain positive after the game is a particular source of Schadenfreude for many.

Sorry mate. #FIJI4LYF
 

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
I think you're right, but we have to try something. I think it will be an easy-ish game for France, but then again I thought we would get hammered by England in the 2019 final. So I know nothing.
you and me both mate :lol:
I mean. Yeah. England are the team everyone loves to hate.

Taking off my bias Scottish hat, I’m trying to think why. Farrell has a really annoying face and kick routine. Chris Ashton was a cocky prick that no one else liked.

Watching the downbeat pundits try and remain positive after the game is a particular source of Schadenfreude for many.

Sorry mate. #FIJI4LYF
It’s ok, it’s hard to explain….I root against the welsh in the same way. Then I analyse it and in the light of the terrible shit that’s gone in with their union end up feeling guilty

We’re hard even for complete neutrals to get behind at the moment….often we’ve got an arrogance which is backed up by a pretty solid team. But at the moment we’re devoid of any decent rugby, and don’t have the power and discipline to play a successful ‘boring’ game.
 

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
How do you stop Levani Botia?

Many have tried and many have failed to configure a plan to neutralise the Fijian flanker at the breakdown, but that is the daunting challenge that Steve Borthwick and his team have confronted this week ahead of Sunday’s quarter-final. The England head coach is an admirer of the 34-year-old, and came within a whisker of signing him for Leicester. Given that, [Sam Underhill’s call-up comes as little surprise](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/10/08/england-team-news-sam-underhill-replaces-jack-willis/). The Bath flanker’s mission is simple: to replicate Botia in training and condition England as well as he can to nullify the Fijian threat.

Telegraph Sport has learnt that England’s preparations this week have been two-fold, centring on their own breakdown work – as well as the referee’s – to thwart the Fijian jackal menace. It is not just Botia, either; nine different players have won jackal turnovers or penalties for them in their four World Cup matches, one of whom, scrum-half Frank Lomani, won as many turnovers as Sam Cane and Michael Hooper did in last year’s Super Rugby, in fewer minutes. Fiji have forced more penalties (across all categories) than any other team at this World Cup.

England this week have focused on winning the race to the breakdown, being accurate when they arrive – it is no coincidence that the match-day 23 features those who have the greatest potency at attacking rucks – but Borthwick and his lieutenants are under no illusions of the importance of Mathieu Raynal, the French referee, in determining Sunday’s victor in Marseille.

Richard Wigglesworth, England’s attack coach, highlighted as much earlier this week. “\[The breakdown\] is going to be slightly different,” he said. “\[Referees\] want guys to get out of that tackle zone before competing. Fiji tend to just compete and then work it out from there. They are slowing it down or taking it off you.”

Half of the battle is making sure that the 50/50 breakdown calls go England’s way. It is understood that Borthwick will highlight instances of perceived Fijian illegality at the breakdown – particularly in the victory over the Wallabies, as shown below, with suggestions that they failed to release the tackled player and occasionally had hands on the floor – in his pre-match discussion with Raynal.

It is understood, too, that captain Owen Farrell will be a regular presence at the side of the French official come kick-off on Sunday. [Farrell received much vitriol for his shot-clock gaffe](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/10/07/england-v-samoa-rugby-world-cup-2023-live-score-updates/) against Samoa; the lesser spotted reality of the captain’s error, however, was that the time ‘wasted’ had actually been spent explaining to referee Andrew Brace that his team-mates were being taken out regularly off the ball. Moments later, Samoa received a yellow.

Last season in the Top 14, out of all those to hit more than 100 defensive rucks, Botia ended the season with the greatest efficacy. In this tournament, only three players have attended more defensive rucks than the Fijian flanker – nicknamed ‘La Machine’ in La Rochelle, the town in which he is worshipped and stars for Stade Rochelais – but Botia only has three turnovers to his name, all against Australia, after falling below his electrifying best in subsequent matches against Georgia and Portugal.

The work-rate of Botia, however, proves that the flanker plays the law of averages with regard to refereeing decisions. Some of his turnovers are legal, some are not; some he gets away with; others he doesn’t. But Botia, a former prison warden in his native Fiji, is willing to take the risk, knowing that the refereeing of the breakdown has descended into one of the most challenging – and critical – elements of an official’s job, with the margin between a legal and illegal turnover so tight, and often so difficult to discern.

Telegraph Sport understands that England’s concern lies with the Botia-Raynal cocktail. Of the breakdown penalties awarded by the Frenchman so far this tournament, 57 per cent have gone against the attacking team – with the jackaler. Wayne Barnes is down at 32 per cent – the lowest – with Ben O’Keeffe and Jaco Peyper, the other two quarter-final referees, at 41 and 43 per cent respectively. Brace is the highest of the wider group of officials at a stratospheric 72 per cent; meaning, on almost three-quarters of the occasions that Brace has blown his whistle for a ruck infringement this tournament, his arm has pointed towards the defending side. With one at 72 per cent and another at 32 per cent, rugby basically becomes a different sport, presenting an uncomfortable truth for World Rugby: two equally experienced and capable referees can look at a ruck and arrive at completely opposite decisions.

**Read more:** [**https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...botia-referee-rugby-world-cup-quarter-final/)

Nice article here about Englands preparation in how to combat the demolition man.

I have a massive thing for turnover specialists….can’t wait to see how we deal with one of the best in a few days
 

MoskvaRed

Full Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
5,239
Location
Not Moskva
you and me both mate :lol:

It’s ok, it’s hard to explain….I root against the welsh in the same way. Then I analyse it and in the light of the terrible shit that’s gone in with their union end up feeling guilty

We’re hard even for complete neutrals to get behind at the moment….often we’ve got an arrogance which is backed up by a pretty solid team. But at the moment we’re devoid of any decent rugby, and don’t have the power and discipline to play a successful ‘boring’ game.
We’re awful to watch but the arrogance tag is unwarranted with these coaches and players. Scotland on the other hand talk a very good game…..
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
134,176
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
How do you stop Levani Botia?

Many have tried and many have failed to configure a plan to neutralise the Fijian flanker at the breakdown, but that is the daunting challenge that Steve Borthwick and his team have confronted this week ahead of Sunday’s quarter-final. The England head coach is an admirer of the 34-year-old, and came within a whisker of signing him for Leicester. Given that, [Sam Underhill’s call-up comes as little surprise](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/10/08/england-team-news-sam-underhill-replaces-jack-willis/). The Bath flanker’s mission is simple: to replicate Botia in training and condition England as well as he can to nullify the Fijian threat.

Telegraph Sport has learnt that England’s preparations this week have been two-fold, centring on their own breakdown work – as well as the referee’s – to thwart the Fijian jackal menace. It is not just Botia, either; nine different players have won jackal turnovers or penalties for them in their four World Cup matches, one of whom, scrum-half Frank Lomani, won as many turnovers as Sam Cane and Michael Hooper did in last year’s Super Rugby, in fewer minutes. Fiji have forced more penalties (across all categories) than any other team at this World Cup.

England this week have focused on winning the race to the breakdown, being accurate when they arrive – it is no coincidence that the match-day 23 features those who have the greatest potency at attacking rucks – but Borthwick and his lieutenants are under no illusions of the importance of Mathieu Raynal, the French referee, in determining Sunday’s victor in Marseille.

Richard Wigglesworth, England’s attack coach, highlighted as much earlier this week. “\[The breakdown\] is going to be slightly different,” he said. “\[Referees\] want guys to get out of that tackle zone before competing. Fiji tend to just compete and then work it out from there. They are slowing it down or taking it off you.”

Half of the battle is making sure that the 50/50 breakdown calls go England’s way. It is understood that Borthwick will highlight instances of perceived Fijian illegality at the breakdown – particularly in the victory over the Wallabies, as shown below, with suggestions that they failed to release the tackled player and occasionally had hands on the floor – in his pre-match discussion with Raynal.

It is understood, too, that captain Owen Farrell will be a regular presence at the side of the French official come kick-off on Sunday. [Farrell received much vitriol for his shot-clock gaffe](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/10/07/england-v-samoa-rugby-world-cup-2023-live-score-updates/) against Samoa; the lesser spotted reality of the captain’s error, however, was that the time ‘wasted’ had actually been spent explaining to referee Andrew Brace that his team-mates were being taken out regularly off the ball. Moments later, Samoa received a yellow.

Last season in the Top 14, out of all those to hit more than 100 defensive rucks, Botia ended the season with the greatest efficacy. In this tournament, only three players have attended more defensive rucks than the Fijian flanker – nicknamed ‘La Machine’ in La Rochelle, the town in which he is worshipped and stars for Stade Rochelais – but Botia only has three turnovers to his name, all against Australia, after falling below his electrifying best in subsequent matches against Georgia and Portugal.

The work-rate of Botia, however, proves that the flanker plays the law of averages with regard to refereeing decisions. Some of his turnovers are legal, some are not; some he gets away with; others he doesn’t. But Botia, a former prison warden in his native Fiji, is willing to take the risk, knowing that the refereeing of the breakdown has descended into one of the most challenging – and critical – elements of an official’s job, with the margin between a legal and illegal turnover so tight, and often so difficult to discern.

Telegraph Sport understands that England’s concern lies with the Botia-Raynal cocktail. Of the breakdown penalties awarded by the Frenchman so far this tournament, 57 per cent have gone against the attacking team – with the jackaler. Wayne Barnes is down at 32 per cent – the lowest – with Ben O’Keeffe and Jaco Peyper, the other two quarter-final referees, at 41 and 43 per cent respectively. Brace is the highest of the wider group of officials at a stratospheric 72 per cent; meaning, on almost three-quarters of the occasions that Brace has blown his whistle for a ruck infringement this tournament, his arm has pointed towards the defending side. With one at 72 per cent and another at 32 per cent, rugby basically becomes a different sport, presenting an uncomfortable truth for World Rugby: two equally experienced and capable referees can look at a ruck and arrive at completely opposite decisions.

**Read more:** [**https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-u...botia-referee-rugby-world-cup-quarter-final/)

Nice article here about Englands preparation in how to combat the demolition man.

I have a massive thing for turnover specialists….can’t wait to see how we deal with one of the best in a few days
Seems a bit over the top to worry about a specific gameplan to combat a 34 year old who couldn’t get a single turnover in two matches against the rugby heavyweights of Georgia and Portugal?!?
 

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
Seems a bit over the top to worry about a specific gameplan to combat a 34 year old who couldn’t get a single turnover in two matches against the rugby heavyweights of Georgia and Portugal?!?
Some players get up for big games and struggle in the lesser ones. He’s incredibly dangerous at the breakdown and I don’t think he’s slowing down just yet considering the domestic season La Rochelle have just had. Probably the first time I’m in full agreement with the England coaching camp
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
134,176
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Some players get up for big games and struggle in the lesser ones. He’s incredibly dangerous at the breakdown and I don’t think he’s slowing down just yet considering the domestic season La Rochelle have just had. Probably the first time I’m in full agreement with the England coaching camp
Fair enough. You don’t need to remind me, a Leinster fan, what a nightmare La Rochelle players can be over the ball!

I just think Fiji have been very poor, all tournament long. They came with this reputation of not being like Fiji of old but all the worst traits have been in full effect. Their lineouts have been trash, the scrum poor, bad decisions and stacks of handling errors. It will take a huge improvement to cause England any real problems. I think you’ll kick them to death with ease.
 

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
Fair enough. You don’t need to remind me, a Leinster fan, what a nightmare La Rochelle players can be over the ball!

I just think Fiji have been very poor, all tournament long. They came with this reputation of not being like Fiji of old but all the worst traits have been in full effect. Their lineouts have been trash, the scrum poor, bad decisions and stacks of handling errors. It will take a huge improvement to cause England any real problems. I think you’ll kick them to death with ease.
Wow you’re a tough critic. I thought they were good against Wales and were robbed, Carley had a really poor game.
They should have beaten Australia more comfortably and agree they’ve been poor since.
I think there’s a pressure of expectation on them….they’ve always been the plucky underdog but now, especially in this group, they’ve been expected to do well. That pressure’s going to be off against England and we might just see the best of them. Hopefully not though
 

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
I’m crap at posting pictures on my phone, but:

1. Baille
2. Mauvaka
3. Atonio
4. Woki
5. Flament
6. Jelonch
7. Ollivon
8. Alldritt
9. Dupont
10. Jalibert
11. Bielle-biarry
12. Danty
13. Fickou
14. Penaud
15. Ramos

Amazing team (obviously)….I do wonder about the two lighter locks though, especially against all that SA power. Were I french I’d rather have had one of the big boys there, though I suspect Taofifenua will play half the match. @JPRouve?
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,025
Location
France
I’m crap at posting pictures on my phone, but:

1. Baille
2. Mauvaka
3. Atonio
4. Woki
5. Flament
6. Jelonch
7. Ollivon
8. Alldritt
9. Dupont
10. Jalibert
11. Bielle-biarry
12. Danty
13. Fickou
14. Penaud
15. Ramos

Amazing team (obviously)….I do wonder about the two lighter locks though, especially against all that SA power. Were I french I’d rather have had one of the big boys there, though I suspect Taofifenua will play half the match. @JPRouve?
No Taofifenua isn't a starter, it generally goes wrong when he does, he enters around the 50th minutes and brings his physicality against tired players. Woki and Flament are also better when it comes to line-outs.
 

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
No Taofifenua isn't a starter, it generally goes wrong when he does, he enters around the 50th minutes and brings his physicality against tired players. Woki and Flament are also better when it comes to line-outs.
Woki has been poor for what feels like ages. What’s happened to him? Seems like he’s gone downhill since he fell out with Urios.

That being said I still reckon you’ll get the job done.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
66,025
Location
France
Woki has been poor for what feels like ages. What’s happened to him? Seems like he’s gone downhill since he fell out with Urios.

That being said I still reckon you’ll get the job done.
Nah, he was poor during the 6 nations but he has been good during this WC. I was ready to berate him left, right and center but he didn't give me that opportunity outside of the first half against NZ.
 

T00lsh3d

T00ly O' Sh3d
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
8,558
Nah, he was poor during the 6 nations but he has been good during this WC. I was ready to berate him left, right and center but he didn't give me that opportunity outside of the first half against NZ.
We’ll see. In a very even matchup I think the South African lock pairing is some way better. Half-back pairing and crucially place-kicker go to France though.

Im very interested to see who comes out the winner of DDA & Danty….or whether there’s just a black hole-esk implosion that sucks in the sun when they collide
 

Rams

aspiring to be like Ryan Giggs
Joined
Apr 20, 2000
Messages
42,674
Location
midtable anonymity
Rugby porn this weekend. All 4 games could be memorable for all sorts of reasons. My picks to win are Wales, Ireland, France and unfortunately Fiji to fly the flag for the Southern hemisphere.
 

Rams

aspiring to be like Ryan Giggs
Joined
Apr 20, 2000
Messages
42,674
Location
midtable anonymity
great quarter finals match-ups

they really did a great job with the draw
Yeah, you feel the QF’s are going to be a lot more exciting than the SF’s, but that’s partly down to the way the draw & ranking system works and the limited no. tier 1 sides.
 

Camy89

Love Island obsessive
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Messages
7,529
Location
Glasgow
We’re hard even for complete neutrals to get behind at the moment….often we’ve got an arrogance which is backed up by a pretty solid team. But at the moment we’re devoid of any decent rugby, and don’t have the power and discipline to play a successful ‘boring’ game.
Quite refreshing to read this from an England fan. Fair play.

Still want Fiji to win :lol:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.