SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

Pogue Mahone

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Veiled attempt at showing off Ireland :)
As @bazalini would say!

Ireland’s done a great job at getting the numbers down but at what cost? My heart breaks for the hospitality industry. So tough getting the balance right. Nordics aside, maybe only Germany has managed this? Although it helps that they’re incredibly wealthy with a phenomenally well resourced health service (and they love following rules!)
 

jojojo

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Italy has 17% of the population over 70 years old. The average in other European countries is around 10%. The average age for deaths from Covid in Italy is 80 years old. Only 1.1% of Italian deaths from Covid have been people under 50 years old.

That's a significant reason why we're getting high numbers of deaths - Italy has loads of oldies.
Not that different to the UK - around 15% of the population are over 70. The average age for covid deaths (on/before mid-October) was 83.
 

TheGame

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Does anyone know of the requirements of how to inform anyone if you've had a positive test? I have a colleague at work whose neighbour tested positive but she hasn't been notified by test and trace. I'm not sure if she has the app however should test and trace be automatically informed if she a positive test?
 

Infra-red

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I hadn't noticed that in amongst all of the announcements on tiers and Christmas bubbles, Johnson also sneaked through this change on support bubbles:

The government says it will be expanding the eligibility of support bubbles from 2 December to help families with very young children or people with continuous care needs, meaning households can form a support bubble with another household, if at least one of them has:
  1. a child under 1 (regardless of how many other adults are in the household)
  2. a child under 5 with a disability that requires continuous care (regardless of how many other adults are in the household)
  3. a single adult carer (living with any additional adults in the household that have a disability and need continuous care)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52637354

So as long as a household has a child under the age of one in it (regardless of how many adults/other children are also there), that household can now join with another household, of any size, in a single support bubble. These combined households will only count as a single household for the purposes of the "three household" Christmas bubble plan, which will obviously benefit Boris and Carrie directly (how nice for them!).

A friend from work is planning to make maximum use of this change. He, his wife and their nine month old are currently living with his in-laws. His brother, his wife and their two kids are living with her parents. From 2 December, the two households can bubble up. That's eight adults and three kids, which will only count as a single household for the purposes of Christmas. Collectively, they can start searching for the two other households they want to incorporate into their Christmas bubbles for the 23-27 December period.

If my friend wanted to really push the envelope, he might even choose to form a separate Christmas bubble from his in-laws, even while he continues to live with them:

Forming a different Christmas bubble to the people you live with normally
You are allowed to form a different Christmas bubble from the people you live with normally. If you have chosen to form a different Christmas bubble from other people in your household - the people you live with normally - you should take additional steps to prevent the opportunity for the virus to spread within your household, and between bubbles.

This might (but does not have to) include:
  • staying with another member of your Christmas bubble between 23 and 27 December where possible
  • taking extra precautions such as cleaning surfaces and contact points like door handles and letting in as much fresh air as possible after someone has visited your household
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...everybody-is-not-in-the-same-christmas-bubble

So you are free to be included in a different three household bubble to the people you are currently living with, even while you continue to live with them. Both my friend and his in-laws would therefore be free to bubble with two other households each (all the while living in the same house and with him still being in a support bubble with his brother, sister-in-law, her parents and his kids via the support bubble change on 2 December). That is now probably 30+ adults and god knows how many kids, frequenting maybe one/two houses continuously for a period of five days - not a single rule would be broken, you'd just be advised to clean the door handles a bit. It's nonsensical!
 

jojojo

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Does anyone know of the requirements of how to inform anyone if you've had a positive test? I have a colleague at work whose neighbour tested positive but she hasn't been notified by test and trace. I'm not sure if she has the app however should test and trace be automatically informed if she a positive test?
No. Not unless her neighbour (when asked by test and trace) describes her as a close contact who she met with from 2 days before symptoms started (or two days before the test if that was done for some other reason) or any time subsequently.

According to the government advice:
For the purposes of contact tracing and isolation, however, ‘close contact’ means having face-to-face contact with someone less than a metre away (even if a face-covering or face-mask is worn) or being within 2 metres of an infected person for 15 minutes or more.
 

TheGame

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No. Not unless her neighbour (when asked by test and trace) describes her as a close contact who she met with from 2 days before symptoms started (or two days before the test if that was done for some other reason) or any time subsequently.

According to the government advice:
For the purposes of contact tracing and isolation, however, ‘close contact’ means having face-to-face contact with someone less than a metre away (even if a face-covering or face-mask is worn) or being within 2 metres of an infected person for 15 minutes or more.
Thanks, I've checked with my colleague and Test and Trace haven't been in touch with the lady who tested postivie at all.
 

Rajma

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In Lithuania we had barely any cases up until September and have been touted about as a perfect example for good management of this virus across Europe. Now it's off the charts and we're one of the worst hit countries for cases per head in the Europe, it was largely caused by autumn parliamentary elections as majority party (at that time) gave in to the pressure from the public as they've decided to not take any early measures in the lead-up to second wave as it would have costed them a lot of votes. At the end they still ended up as a opposition party and we now have a difficult time controlling the spread. Although restrictions currently are definitely very lax in comparison to the lockdown in spring. We had crowds on for indoors events for up to 5000 people just few weeks ago still, ffs. :lol:
 

Stactix

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Got pissed off at work today, end of the day they did the christmas decorations at the school as they do every year. Senior member of staff for the trust left some treats in staffroom and asked to keep social distancing in mind. *yet was the main instigator in making sure everyone was there*

Come end of the day, people start gathering and I leave as I'm still busy with it related issues driving me up the fecking wall and the same senior member of staff asks if I'm having some, say I'll be back soon.
While in the class, hear the guy going around getting people to go so he can have a word. 5minutes later, I'm in the class with another ta whose doing the decorations and another ta comes asks her to come as he wants everyone there. She didn't want to go as everyone is there and we're in lockdown in a tier 3 region but got pressured into it..

Must of been 15-20minutes before I see staff moving around the school again another 10minutes before the everyone had.

We're in a fecking lockdown in a tier 3 area, I can't see my girlfriend.. you did a briefing in the hall with less staff and no goodies this morning with social distancing but this is acceptable with peer pressure too? When we have a school in the trust closed for a week due to extreme cases..

:houllier::houllier::houllier::houllier:
Maybe I'm being a bit petty but gah
 

Brwned

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Personally I go walking around with anthrax in my back pocket all day long. Who are these jokers telling me it's "illegal". I'm not harming anyone. I mean, sure, a few jars break every now and then, but nobody was near me so it's all good. Probably. How does anthrax work again? Anyway, feck the government.
 
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Lay

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Confirmed case in my kids school
We've had a few, but today seems to be breakout day. My step son is in Year 2, and two of the four classes are already self isolating and we just got an email today that 22 staff members are having to isolate from today. They still said we should take him to school as normal on Monday :houllier:
 

sullydnl

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Real men walk around bollock naked covered in only their own hair, presumably.
 

GloryHunter07

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I hadn't noticed that in amongst all of the announcements on tiers and Christmas bubbles, Johnson also sneaked through this change on support bubbles:




So as long as a household has a child under the age of one in it (regardless of how many adults/other children are also there), that household can now join with another household, of any size, in a single support bubble. These combined households will only count as a single household for the purposes of the "three household" Christmas bubble plan, which will obviously benefit Boris and Carrie directly (how nice for them!).

A friend from work is planning to make maximum use of this change. He, his wife and their nine month old are currently living with his in-laws. His brother, his wife and their two kids are living with her parents. From 2 December, the two households can bubble up. That's eight adults and three kids, which will only count as a single household for the purposes of Christmas. Collectively, they can start searching for the two other households they want to incorporate into their Christmas bubbles for the 23-27 December period.

If my friend wanted to really push the envelope, he might even choose to form a separate Christmas bubble from his in-laws, even while he continues to live with them:




So you are free to be included in a different three household bubble to the people you are currently living with, even while you continue to live with them. Both my friend and his in-laws would therefore be free to bubble with two other households each (all the while living in the same house and with him still being in a support bubble with his brother, sister-in-law, her parents and his kids via the support bubble change on 2 December). That is now probably 30+ adults and god knows how many kids, frequenting maybe one/two houses continuously for a period of five days - not a single rule would be broken, you'd just be advised to clean the door handles a bit. It's nonsensical!
Have you tried looking after a baby during a pandemic? Without the usual family support it is quite hard.
 

Infra-red

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Have you tried looking after a baby during a pandemic? Without the usual family support it is quite hard.
I have no doubt that it is incredibly difficult, which makes it even more damning that Boris chose to do nothing at all to help people in that situation, until it could benefit him personally.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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This is what some of the anti-lockdown people are saying. Does anyone here have counters to this research? Besides the obvious, letting the virus run rampant even with a less than 1% fatality rate would lead to tens of millions of deaths and untold economic damage?

@Pogue Mahone
 

Brwned

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This is what some of the anti-lockdown people are saying. Does anyone here have counters to this research? Besides the obvious, letting the virus run rampant even with a less than 1% fatality rate would lead to tens of millions of deaths and untold economic damage?

@Pogue Mahone
This is one of the most comprehensive studies of the effects in the UK. It was subject to a lot of media spin too but one of the key points that featured in the summary here was this:
While these negative health impacts of lockdown exceed the impacts of COVID-19 directly, they are much smaller than the negative impacts estimated for a scenario in which these measures are not in place; without these mitigations, the impact of direct COVID-19 deaths alone on both mortality and morbidity would be much higher – an estimated 439,000 excess deaths resulting from COVID-19, and 3,000,000 QALYs lost.
The anti-lockdown people are focusing on the first part of the sentence (and the evidence supporting it) while ignoring the rest, and it relies on a counter-factual that has no basis in reality.

If lockdowns could be avoided while countries were able to keep the spread of the virus under control through test and trace, social distancing and mask use, then every government in the world would do that. Every government in the world did try to do that. Lockdowns were the "nuclear option". But they were taken because it was demonstrably proven that the virus could not be kept under control, and the consequences of losing control was worse on almost every dimension.

It's not that SAGE are unaware of the consequences of lockdowns; they're the ones commissioning the 200-page reports on it. Nor is it that governments are particularly trigger happy on lockdowns; in most cases they've waited until the last minute in the second wave once more, long after scientific advisers asked them to just accept the reality, in turn making the lockdowns even longer. It's just the case that the alternative is demonstrably much worse.

Most of the negative effects that come with lockdowns also come without lockdowns. It just takes a different form, and so anti-lockdown people recognise that symptom a won't appear therefore consequence a will be prevented, without realising that instead symptom b will appear, unfortunately causing consequence a once more, and sometimes in greater numbers.

If the virus spreads more freely in schools then more children miss out on free school meals because they have to isolate, irrespective of any lockdown. Education will be set back because teachers are not only isolating but permanently removed from the workforce, while schools struggle to recruit new teachers in the midst of a pandemic. Suicide rates go up as anxiety, depression and stress increase. That happens with social isolation but it also happens as those around you are thrust into life-threatening situations. Greatly reducing the former while increasing the latter doesn't lead to fewer unhappy people. Or at least it's a very grim assumption, supported by no data, to take. There are very few areas where just letting covid run wild produces better non-covid health or economic outcomes, short-term or long-term.
 

McGrathsipan

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I know plenty of people don’t have common sense. My brother‘s wife seems to think if the government say it’s OK then somehow she’ll be safe. Their family is having a big Christmas. I think most posters in here are able to see things as they though. You can have 12 in a house and you’d be absolutely fine more likely than not . A minority won’t be, however. I guess it’s how much risk you want to take given your personal circumstances and geographical location. I won’t be looking to the government for advice anyway.

My close family don't want to get together in door at all which makes me happy. We’re planning on going on some family walks over the period instead.
My brother is getting married next week.
He's having a house party tonight as a stag. About 30 people. I'm not going and I'm being judged.

My mother normally does a thing on Christmas eve with all of us there. Thats about 25 people. I told her myself and my family wont be there. Getting judged again.
Its infuriating that my own family are a set of stupid feckers but I'm the one being judged.
 

Wibble

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Get vaccinated or kill Penna you selfish bastards
If lockdowns could be avoided while countries were able to keep the spread of the virus under control through test and trace, social distancing and mask use, then every government in the world would do that. Every government in the world did try to do that. Lockdowns were the "nuclear option".
Given that they seem immune to evidence then them having to explain why even right-wing governments like those in the UK and Australia acted as they did? Can't be a lefty plot to remove freedoms (oh the irony).

At the very least it will make them show their true nature be it Qanon, Sortos, Bill Gates conspiracy theories or just giddy excitement at supposedly knowing something the sheeple don't.
 

Wibble

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Get vaccinated or kill Penna you selfish bastards
My brother is getting married next week.
He's having a house party tonight as a stag. About 30 people. I'm not going and I'm being judged.

My mother normally does a thing on Christmas eve with all of us there. Thats about 25 people. I told her myself and my family wont be there. Getting judged again.
Its infuriating that my own family are a set of stupid feckers but I'm the one being judged.
I'm judging you as a highly responsible adult who doesn't want an aged relative's death on his conscience. Plus your kids will remember this and it will help them be responsible adults in the future.
 
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Brwned

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Given that they seem immune to evidence then them having to explain why even right-wing governments like those in the UK and Australia acted as they did? Can't be a lefty plot to remove freedoms (oh the irony).

At the very least it will make them show their true nature be it Qanon, Sortos, Bill Gates conspiracy theories or just giddy excitement at supposedly knowing something the sheeple don't.
Yeah that's an idea I can't quite wrap my head around, yet it continually goes unanswered. I suppose the only argument is "all governments want to take away our freedoms, it's just right wing governments want to do it less". I'm sure that doesn't fit with how they described these governments before, though. Then again, maybe it's just libertarians who have a larger share of voice at the moment, because it seems the silent minority on both sides of the political spectrum are comfortable that these sacrifices are in the best interest of the country, and not a sinister overreach by big government.

The other idea that puzzles me is that there's this other route that governments are not taking, which is founded on the belief that hospitals being overwhelmed was just a scare tactic. Yet in the US we get reports about it every week, and it's been reported across numerous European countries even with strict policies in place. This is the latest report in the US:
New York Times said:
In excruciating pain with lesions on her face and scalp, Tracey Fine lay for 13 hours on a gurney in an emergency room hallway.

All around her, Covid-19 patients filled the beds of the hospital in Madison, Wis. Her nurse was so harried that she could not remember Ms. Fine’s condition, and the staff was slow to bring her pain medicine or food.

In a small rural hospital in Missouri, Shain Zundel’s severe headache turned out to be a brain abscess. His condition would typically have required an operation within a few hours, but he was forced to wait a day while doctors struggled to find a neurosurgeon and a bed — finally at a hospital 375 miles away in Iowa.

From New Mexico to Minnesota to Florida, hospitals are teeming with record numbers of Covid patients. Staff members at smaller hospitals have had to beg larger medical centers repeatedly to take one more, just one more patient, but many of the bigger hospitals have sharply limited the transfers they will accept, their own halls and wards overflowing.

In the spring, the pandemic was concentrated mainly in hard-hit regions like New York, which offered lessons to hospitals in other states anticipating the spread of the coronavirus. Despite months of planning, though, many of the nation’s hospital systems are now slammed with a staggering swell of patients, no available beds and widening shortages of nurses and doctors. On any single day, some hospitals have had to turn away transfer requests for patients needing urgent care or incoming emergencies.

And rising infection rates among nurses and other frontline workers have doubled the patient load on those left standing.

There is no end in sight for the nation’s hospitals as the pandemic continues to hammer cities and rural areas across the country, totaling 13 million cases so far this year. And public health experts warn that the holidays may speed the already fast-moving pace of infection, driving the demand for hospital beds and medical care ever higher.

A record number of Americans — 90,000 — are now hospitalized with Covid, and new cases of infection had been climbing to nearly 200,000 daily.

Health care systems “are verging on the edge of breaking,” Dr. Michael Osterholm, a member of President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s Covid-19 advisory council, said in a podcast this month.

The public does not realize how dire the situation is, Dr. Osterholm said, and may respond only “when people are dying, sitting in chairs in waiting rooms in emergency rooms for 10 hours to get a bed, and they can’t find one, and then they die.”

When Ms. Fine went to UW Health’s University Hospital in Madison, she found doctors there overwhelmed and distracted. “They just parked me in a hallway because there was no place for me to go,” said Ms. Fine, 61, who was eventually found to have a severe bout of shingles that threatened her eyes.

She had missed her annual checkup or a shingles vaccination because of the pandemic.

Admitted to a makeshift room with curtains separating the beds, Ms. Fine watched the chaos around her. A nurse did not know who she was, asking if she had trouble walking or heard whooshing in her ears. She “was just completely frazzled,” Ms. Fine recalled, though she added that staff members were “kind and caring and did their best under horrifying conditions.”

Workers at the hospital issued a plea last Sunday, published as a two-page ad in The Wisconsin State Journal, asking state residents to help prevent further spread of the virus.
“Without immediate change, our hospitals will be too full to treat all of those with the virus and those with other illnesses or injuries,” they warned. “Soon you or someone you love may need us, but we won’t be able to provide the lifesaving care you need, whether for Covid-19, cancer, heart disease or other urgent conditions. As health care providers, we are terrified of that becoming reality.”

UW Health declined to comment directly on Ms. Fine’s experience, but acknowledged the strains the pandemic has imposed. While patients were sometimes boarded in the emergency room even before the new coronavirus surge, occupancy is now “super high,” said Dr. Jeff Pothof, the group’s chief quality officer.

UW Health is “starting to do things it hasn’t done before,” he said, including enlisting primary care and family doctors to work in the hospital treating seriously ill patients. “It works, but it’s not great,” he said.

Hospitals in St. Louis have been particularly hard-hit in recent weeks, said Dr. Alexander Garza, the chief community health officer for SSM Health, a Catholic hospital group, who also serves as the head of the area task force on the virus. Over the last month, SSM Health turned away about 50 patients that it could not immediately care for.

And nurses — already one of the groups most vulnerable to infection — are adding more and more hours to their shifts.

Hospitals are reassigning nurses to adult intensive care units from pediatric ones, doubling up patients in a single room, and asking nurses, who typically care for two critically ill patients at a time, to cover three or more, he said.

“If you’re not able to dedicate as much time and resources to them, obviously they’re not getting optimal care,” Dr. Garza said.

Consuelo Vargas, an emergency room nurse in Chicago, says patients linger for days in emergency rooms because I.C.U.s are full. The nursing shortage has a cascading effect. It “leads to an increase in patient falls, this leads to bedsores, this leads to delays in patient care,” she said.

Personnel, available beds and protective equipment are fundamentally scarce. At a news conference held by National Nurses United, a union, Ms. Vargas said there was still not enough protective equipment like N95 masks, forcing her to buy her own.

Some hospitals have joined in sounding the alarm: Supplies of testing kits, masks and gloves are running low.

The country never quite caught up from the earlier shortages, Dr. Osterholm said. “We’re just going to run into a wall in terms of P.P.E.,” he said.

Even if hospitals in some cities appear to have enough physical space, or can quickly build new units or set up field hospitals, staff shortages offset any benefit of expansion.
“Beds don’t take care of people; people take care of people,” said Dr. Marc Harrison, the chief executive of Intermountain Healthcare, a sprawling system of hospitals and clinics based in Salt Lake City.

At any given time in recent weeks, a quarter of Intermountain’s nurses were out — sick, quarantining or taking care of a family member felled by the virus. Nursing students have been granted temporary licenses by the state to fill gaps, and the hospital system is scrambling to latch onto travel nurses who are in high demand across many states and expensive to hire.

To relieve pressure on its big hospitals, Intermountain is keeping more patients at its smaller centers, monitored virtually by specialists at the larger hospitals who consult with the local doctors via remote links.

Smaller hospitals are under significant stress. “We don’t have intensive care units,” said Tony Keene, the chief executive of Sullivan County Memorial Hospital, a rural hospital licensed for 25 beds in Milan, Mo. “We don’t perform surgeries or anything like that here. When we have Covid cases, it very much taxes our ability.”

His tiny hospital usually has no more than a half-dozen patients on a busy day, but may now treat twice that number. About a fourth of the hospital’s 100 employees, including Mr. Keene, have come down with the virus since March.

“It is sometimes a daily and hourly struggle to make sure we have adequate staff in the hospital,” he said. The hospital’s nurses, who typically work three 12-hour shifts a week, are taking as many as five or six shifts each week.

“We’re out here by ourselves,” Mr. Keene said. “We don’t have a larger system pumping money into us or something like that.” The hospital used federal Covid aid to invest in medical gas lines so patients could be given oxygen.

The sickest patients still must be transferred, but the larger hospital 35 miles away is awash in its own heavy volume of Covid patients and is reducing staff levels.
Even when hospitals in a community are talking weekly, if not daily, to discuss how to handle the overall spikes in admissions, few have room to spare in areas where numbers keep climbing. Many have reduced or even stopped providing elective surgeries and procedures.

“We’re all concerned about the surges we’re seeing now,” said Nancy Foster, vice president of quality and patient safety policy for the American Hospital Association. Patients who need special medical attention normally can be sent to a nearby urban area, but “many times those referral centers are full or nearly full,” she said.

Mr. Zundel’s case was a matter of life or death. He had a debilitating headache and “was not able to function at all,” he said. A larger hospital nearby was inundated with patients, so his wife, Tessa, took him to a small hospital in rural Missouri to be seen quickly. The doctors there recognized that he had a brain abscess, but could not immediately find a medical center to treat him.

“He was dying,” his wife said. Some hospitals had beds, but no available neurosurgeon. Staff members spent a full day trying to find somewhere he could get an operation.
“They just worked the phone until they found a solution,” she said. “They didn’t give up.”

Mr. Zundel, 48, was finally flown to the University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics, where Dr. Matthew Howard, a neurosurgeon, performed an operation.
But Iowa is also turning away patients, Dr. Howard said. “Early in the crisis, we were being hammered by limitations in P.P.E. Now, the problem is the beds are full,” he said.

Dr. Dixie Harris, a critical care specialist at Intermountain, had volunteered in New York City during the height of the pandemic last spring. Doctors are now better able to treat the virus and predict the course of the disease, she said.

But they are also stretched very thin, caring for Covid patients in addition to their regular patients. “Almost nobody has had a real vacation,” she said. “People are really tired.”
And readmissions or the lingering health problems of Covid “long haulers” have compounded the intensified regimen for medical care. “Not only are we seeing the tsunami coming, we have that back wave coming,” Dr. Harris said.

Some health care workers say they feel abandoned. “Nurses have been crying out for months and months that this has been a problem, and we really have not gotten rescued,” said Leslie McKamey, a nurse in Bismarck, N.D., and a member of National Nurses United.

“We’re working overtime. We’re working several different jobs,” she said. “We’re really feeling the strain of it.”
We're already living in the dystopian reality where we let the virus comeback too strongly and it's having demonstrable effects on the healthcare system, harming patient outcomes for covid and non-covid patients. Yet they're just wandering through the streets painting that as a utopia that we should step further into, as if the chaos taking place in hospitals is simply a mirage and the medical experts crying out for "common sense" are treated as jokers and conspiracy theorists. Baffling.
 

GloryHunter07

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My brother is getting married next week.
He's having a house party tonight as a stag. About 30 people. I'm not going and I'm being judged.

My mother normally does a thing on Christmas eve with all of us there. Thats about 25 people. I told her myself and my family wont be there. Getting judged again.
Its infuriating that my own family are a set of stupid feckers but I'm the one being judged.
You are doing the right thing. Your brother on the other hand..
 

McGrathsipan

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You are doing the right thing. Your brother on the other hand..
Dont even get me started .... this has the potential to be a super spreader event. His fiancee is doing the hen the night before -- in the house!!

I'm judging you as a highly responsible adult who doesn't want an aged relative's death on his conscience. Plus your kids will remember this and it will help them be responsible adults in the future.
Thanks
 

golden_blunder

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Dont even get me started .... this has the potential to be a super spreader event. His fiancee is doing the hen the night before -- in the house!!



Thanks
All you can do is look after yourself and your own family. I’d say that’s priority than getting boozy with Covid. Good on ya, wish everyone saw things the same way around here
 

Rado_N

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Apparently Primark are staying open for 24hrs when we move from the “lockdown” to tiers.

That will go well.
 

FootballHQ

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The only thing I'd say about xmas day is it's the one day of a normal year where it's like the first lockdown, no public transport or in city centres, very few people on roads, shops shut and hardly anyone about until 3-4pm when families will be out walking off the meal.

Surely that could balance out the expected infected rise a little bit given the situation currently where it's not really a proper lockdown and many ares are busy.

Of course you also should be stopping New years eve and anything much on Boxing day given the ridiculous queues for sales. Oh and the mad rush back on xmas eve as there's always a story in London of something going wrong with the trains at one of the London stations.

It's going to be a tough period but I'm not convinced it will be the apocolypse it's predicted to be.
 

Garethw

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Feb 7, 2005
Messages
14,732
Location
England:
My Mums friend had to travel to the Isle of Sheppey (Swale) in Kent yesterday to pick something up.

While there with her husband they decided to have a walk around.

She said it was like walking into a different world. Zero mask wearing and no social distancing at all.

They were berated and laughed at for wearing masks when entering a shop.

No wonder things are so bad in that area.

Thanks to idiots like that all of us in Kent will be in Tier 3.