Yup. Just like nobody is forced to get a driving license. But if you want one you have to follow a process defined by the state to get one. Which does actually include medical elements. An eye test. Obligation to drive wearing glasses if needed (and there are bound to be nutters somewhere who think wearing glasses causes them harm) Plus there are a lot of chronic medical conditions that require regular more holistic medical check-ups and adherence to prescribed medicines in order to be allowed to continue to drive (e.g. epilepsy)
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I didn’t use any analogy! I just picked up on the second class citizen definition already in the discussion.
I think we can draw a distinction between a restriction of specific freedoms for directly related actions - you can’t drive if you can’t demonstrate you drive safely - and the broader restrictions of freedoms for things much more indirectly related.
The only kind of second class citizenry I can think is widely supported is criminals. They have freedoms restricted in ways that have no relation to the specific act they took, they’re clearly shut out of important parts of society, and while there’s a lot of flaws, people see it as a net positive.
I can’t think of many other examples for those broader, indirect restrictions of a large group for a specific action.
@Pogue Mahone @Tarrou True there is some nuance, but there is also a world of difference between not being able to drive a car or work with children, and being placed under virtual house arrest by the state, or whatever more relaxed or stricter restrictions you begin with. It's a bit tenuous to say the former examples really make you a 'second class citizen', definitely so if you're comparing it to the latter - but then we just delve into semantics over what 'second class citizen' actually means I suppose. There's nothing in history or current day to suggest any of these 'temporary restrictions' remain temporary at all. How long does it take before unvaccinated people cannot even purchase a property, go to a job interview etc. while the people who welcome these restrictions with open arms go about their lives in blissful ignorance.
The smallpox example is another good one to show that there is some nuance, it's never so cut and cry that we should or shouldn't go in one direction 100% of the time. I would be interested to know though how the mortality rate, disease severity and hospital treatments measure up between Covid & Smallpox in its' day.
The smallpox example is another good one to show that there is some nuance, it's never so cut and cry that we should or shouldn't go in one direction 100% of the time. I would be interested to know though how the mortality rate, disease severity and hospital treatments measure up between Covid & Smallpox in its' day.
Just to be clear I definitely don’t think that. I think that process is an essential part of society. I don’t think libertarianism is a sensible model. There’s just a lot of room for debate between having no restrictions on freedoms and having these restrictions for these reasons.
Not like Priti Patels nationality act doesn't do that despicable shit all by itself and completely independently of covid now is it. But chumps would rather focus on 'forced health mandates.'
The most intrusive thing in my opinion was the proposed smartphone app, which got nix'd pretty early.
Cases rising steadily despite lockdown. Time to open up and see what happens.
Not really or at least not in the sense of covid restrictions per se. Our useless government refused to fund proper quarantine. The problem wasn't one of freedom or rights but rather one of political incompetence which our federal government specialise in. Covid restrictions in general were a great idea and I thoroughly supported them. #scottyfrommarketing just should have looked out for all of our overseas citizens and not just those who could afford the $10k or more cost of getting g home and quarantine. As usual he only looked after the top end of town and hopefully he will get punished severely for this and his many other incompetence at the looming election.
What a load of claptrap.QR codes keep us safer and reduce the spread of disease. They are entirely proportionate to the risk and everyone wants them gone whe it is safe to do so
And nobody is punished for a political view. They might suffer by their own choice as a consequence of endangering others health That isn't a political opinion.
Good. I don't want my health risked by idiots and it is entirely fair that there are consequences that they choose to accept for said stupidity.︎Human beings who do not comply with Covid measures (vaccination, masks, curfew, etc.) are the new second-class citizens. They can lose their job and are now engaged in a process of being severely criminalised, which paves the way for any future flourishing dictatorship regime
Part of any government's function is to protect society in general and individuals from themselves. Speeding, seatbelt and crash helmet laws for example. You can't drive a taxi without a licence. You need to be suitably qualified to be a doctor and many other proffering. You need to get a working g with children certificate for many occupation to make sure you aren't a kidding fiddler etc etc. This is simply a neccesary public health measure.
No it isn't. Everyone wants restrictions gone if/when it is eventually safe to do so.
We tried that in NSW. It isn't going well. 1k to 25k cases per day in about a week or so. Hospitals soon to be overwhelmed. Despite the removal of most restriction the economy is going backwards dadtvas nobodybis now confident to socialise. The city centre is a ghost town at nights/weekend and previously packed local pubs have tumbleweeds rolling through.
So much good work undone so fast by our new religious right nutter of a state premier.
The bolded part is going to be interesting (in a morbid sense) to see - NSW effectively only has immunity via vaccination, with no immunity from past infection. So it may indicate if the vaccines are robust enough. Having said that, NSW lacks the 'advantage' of selection bias that other countries unfortunately have regarding deaths. I have quite a bit of family in Aus (Sydney and Melbourne), so I'm hoping the vaccines provide sufficient immunity.
An update on how the NHS hospital system currently stands. Basically, covid admissions have doubled over the past week and for most of the country they're likely to keep rising for another couple of weeks. However, it's staff shortages, partly due to covid, that worry the hospitals most - even if total hospital beds in use for covid patients increases as expected.
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Comparing quarantining to concentration camps
Governments are not stupid: they are fully aware of what they are doing and for whom they are working for.
The freedom of movement (here right to travel) is one of these human rights that should be non-negotiable.
A negative test and self-quarantine are reasonable measures.
Most people do not pay tax in order to fund what you call proper quarantine (i.e. isolation/covid/concentration camp).
Unsubstantiated claims. The current worldwide situation simply shows that public health policies are a failure.
People who refuse to comply with covid measures are mostly driven by political beliefs. Public policies are a mix of science (17.5%) and politics (82.5%)
Well, the reality is that vaccinated people can transmit the virus...
I agree that you can't drive a taxi and work in this business without a driving license, but surely it is possible to work in any industry without being vaccinated?
People have no power in our societies due to simple cowardice and inability to exert any form of critical thinking.
The current state of affairs is quite obvious. Would you like me to elaborate on a specific topic?
I feel like with the new variant it’s pointless talking about QR codes because unless you take LFT every single day you’re still a risk.
at the moment every time you interact with other people, no matter how short that time is, you’re at risk
at the moment every time you interact with other people, no matter how short that time is, you’re at risk
Whilst it’s not great, it’s worth noting the “double rate” appears to be around 10 days rather than 2, and that includes the Christmas period.
It will be amazing if England get through this without any proper restrictions. It’s like the government totally fluked their way toward herd immunity after probably the most inept first year of everyone.
Most right wing governments are working to enrich themselves and their mates at the top end of town irrespective of there being a pandemic or not, which is why governments led by #scottyfrommarketing and Bojo want restrictions to go away. It is bad for business and only irrelevant poor people pay/die in the main.
Yet I get a more tin foil hat vibe from your post.
Why? You can't drive or fly without a licence and that restrictions your movement. There are over 30 notifiable diseases and far more notifiable causative agents with various restrictions attached. This is normal, reasonable and proportionate.
Are you familiar with representative government?
Concentration camp? That is an idiotic assertion. Nice concentration camp with TV, resort food, microwave, mini-bar and Netflix and release after 14 days or less. Plus you have a choice to enter or not enter quarantine
Rubbish. You just don't understand how they have worked or choose not to.
They might think or pretend they do but they are mainly driven by being stupid.
Well done you have won covidiot bingo. The vast majority of hugely effective vaccines aren't sterilising. Yet strangely they massively reduce illness, serious illness and death. Go figure.
You usually need a taxi licence and a driving licence for what it is worth.
It is possible to kill people with impunity if it isn't against the law. You can have sex with minors if it isn't against the law. Your point is that if there wasn't a law against something then it wouldn't be illegal. Which is a rather odd thing to say.
Glad you accept the blame.
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What kind of lockdown are you in? We had a hard one for three weeks until mid December and it did help to bring down the incidence rate by a large number.
Freedom ends where it endangers the freedom of others.
Where are you based?
Then prepare to be amazed.
@Wibble
I do not like to repeat myself, and our views are diametrically opposed. We also do not share the same values so no need to further interact.
I do not like to repeat myself, and our views are diametrically opposed. We also do not share the same values so no need to further interact.
I am what you would call an idiot because I can't find any good reason to justify this type of situation.
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I consider myself fairly left wing but honestly I think this superiority complex when it comes to purity of intent that is a major contributory factor behind the fact parties of the left, at least in this country, struggle at elections.
I disagree with much of what they do but being left wing really isn’t any superior morally than being right wing and I think the left struggling to understand that has led more often to right wing govts being, sadly, more electable
I don’t think the left understands how unattractive this mindset is beyond the constituency of those already on side. I know is OT but the right will continue to benefit electorally while the left simply assumes everyone else also agrees they’re naturally morally superior
Netherlands
Thanks
Yeah can you elaborate on this?
Difficult to portray yourself as the enlightened, impartial debater when you use the term concentration camp for quarantine.
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Precisely this.
I can see why he doesn't like repeating himself, I'd be embarrassed repeating that nonsense.
Living in society involves agreeing to a certain social contract, I've no problem this contract being changed in the middle of a pandemic. It causes me 10 seconds of mild inconvenience when entering a venue, and taking a free vaccine that is designed to protect my health, the absolute tyranny.
I’m double vaxxed, annoying that you have to keep emphasising it whenever you say anything that isn’t green lighted or asks questions just so people don’t label you with false pejoratives. But one area that is concerning me is the narrative being used to get teenagers to vaccinate.
We were told the vaccines would would stop infections and stop transmissions. Then we were told they don’t but they reduce the likelihood of severe disease. I understand that, understanding of how things work change and so do viruses’ so that’s normal. But what I really don’t agree with, is that now it’s agreed that vaccination does not stop transmission, people are still telling healthy teenagers to vaccinate because they could infect older family members.
I find that completely outrageous to get people to do something based on a lie and it’s counterproductive because once people realise it they naturally become reluctant. Surely people on tv have a duty to provide accurate information.
We were told the vaccines would would stop infections and stop transmissions. Then we were told they don’t but they reduce the likelihood of severe disease. I understand that, understanding of how things work change and so do viruses’ so that’s normal. But what I really don’t agree with, is that now it’s agreed that vaccination does not stop transmission, people are still telling healthy teenagers to vaccinate because they could infect older family members.
I find that completely outrageous to get people to do something based on a lie and it’s counterproductive because once people realise it they naturally become reluctant. Surely people on tv have a duty to provide accurate information.
You should never have been told that they stop all transmissions - that was never going to be true, that's always been known. Currently they stop around 75% of omicron transmissions and in excess of 90% of delta infections by not letting you get infected at all (assuming you've had the booster or your immunity is high for some other reason - like 2 jabs + past infection or because you're a recently double vaxxed teen).
Not perfect, but it's no lie to say they stop infections and onward transmission. They just can't stop all of it. As for the other advantage of the vaccine - even in the young it has a big impact on hospitalisation rates. What's wrong with going for the best option we've got?
We really don't have any magic tricks we can pull that mean nobody has to do anything to reduce infection or hospitalisation rates or deaths.
Just saw the warning
I’m guessing some of you must work for twitter, that wasn’t my opinion just an article I read and looks like you guys know for sure what’s wrong or what’s right, or should I say what you think is right. I don’t have any answers for the virus and looks like not even the scientists but the world is dividing in the vax and the unvax with the vax dictating and turning in dictators.The fact you think that’s a valid source for discussion is one part hilarious, two parts tragic.Just saw the warning
I never got the message that these vaccines would stop infections or transmission. I only ever heard the message that they would help reduce infection and transmission.
This so called lie you have been told is something I have never heard or anyone I know have ever heard. Where on earth do you get your information?? Maybe you need to address that issue.
Where’s a valid source? CDC is a joke changing their narrative all the time, I trusted them in the beginning but they flip-flop so many times I don’t trust them anymore, then Israel called my attention with interesting data but when a French (well he sounded like one with his accent) scientist called off the fact Israel signed a deal with Pfizer to get all the vaccines and reason why they were ahead of other countries, made me not trust 100% their data. Anyway they are coming with pills but the price is crazy -$700 a pill and we would need at least 3…. Good times and great future we have.
What flip flopping did the CDC do?
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The CDC should make it official and send people to cough into everyone's mouth.
Elaborate on what?
I never wrote I was the enlightened and impartial debater: save your energy.
Everything bar supermarkets, chemists and take aways shut. Figures went down from 24k PD to 12k, but now on the rise by 24% over the last week.
Like I said. I understand that virus’ change and it’s impossible to tell how something will truly work before it actually goes into mass production. So I don’t have an issue with the fact that initially we were told the vaccine would stop transmission, and then we were told it didn’t.
I clearly remember in 2020 when we were told the vaccine would stop transmission and mid 2021 when it was discovered that it didn’t. That’s actually not an issue. Although people trying to change history, getting sensitive about it, or gaslight people into thinking they remember wrongly is a bit weird.
People in 2020 Vs 2021
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Nah pal, I'll use my energy any way that I want to. You always respond as if your opinion is gospel and frequently talk down to people in the most condescending way possible.
You know exactly what I'm asking you to elaborate on since I quoted it right after the part you've responded to. But why should I expect you to respond in good faith to anyone on this forum?
Maybe that's not your intention, maybe it is. It's difficult to tell unfortunately.