SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Wolverine]

I'm all jabbed and boosted myself. So certainly not an anti vaxxer.

I personally think him being unvaccinated is not good but he has a point about the boosters for NHS staff being regular, maybe?

Im hoping those more in the know can shed some light on it.

Always good to listen to alternative views and discuss.

Being unvaccinated amongst clinical staff is a fringe opinion and belief. NHS employs a lot of non-clinical staff too, majority of unvaccinated are represented in the BAME group within that - unfortunately. We had emails way earlier regarding getting boosters so well enough time to sort.
Its a mandatory requirement just like hepatitis B, TB and providing other serology results to occupational health. No different.
Regarding boosters as with the first two, we were practically climbing over each other in my hospital trust to get it done.

 

[Roane]

Being unvaccinated amongst clinical staff is a fringe opinion and belief. NHS employs a lot of non-clinical staff too, majority of unvaccinated are represented in the BAME group within that - unfortunately. We had emails way earlier regarding getting boosters so well enough time to sort.
Its a mandatory requirement just like hepatitis B, TB and providing other serology results to occupational health. No different.
Regarding boosters as with the first two, we were practically climbing over each other in my hospital trust to get it done.

Thanks for the reply. Appreciate it.

I'm not a doctor/nurse etc but do have a background in health and development (mainly academic) but work with people in the health field).

As I said earlier I'm not an anti vaxxer and have had the jabs and booster and I've had covid about 8/9 months back.

Where I live I have contact with people in the care and health sector (so from care workers in homes to nurses to doctors etc) and it suprises me how many I come across who are not vaccinated and say they don't intend to. In the care homes especially there is currently a shortage of workers. Some due to time off for contracting covid but increasingly those not willing to get the vaccine.

The takeaway point for me from that video wasn't not to get vaxxed but if immunity is quickly diminished then whether folk need to have boosters more often on the front line?

I'm not saying it's right it wrong, just know that there are some folk on here who are very knowledgeable and hoping to learn.

 

[Wolverine]

Thanks for the reply. Appreciate it.

I'm not a doctor/nurse etc but do have a background in health and development (mainly academic) but work with people in the health field).

As I said earlier I'm not an anti vaxxer and have had the jabs and booster and I've had covid about 8/9 months back.

Where I live I have contact with people in the care and health sector (so from care workers in homes to nurses to doctors etc) and it suprises me how many I come across who are not vaccinated and say they don't intend to. In the care homes especially there is currently a shortage of workers. Some due to time off for contracting covid but increasingly those not willing to get the vaccine.

The takeaway point for me from that video wasn't not to get vaxxed but if immunity is quickly diminished then whether folk need to have boosters more often on the front line?

I'm not saying it's right it wrong, just know that there are some folk on here who are very knowledgeable and hoping to learn.

How quickly immunity is diminished is still up for date.

I've seen this UCL study cited a lot from July last year pre-booster suggesting reduction in antibody levels in 2-3 months but high degree of variability and also only 600 people studied
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2021/jul/vaccine-antibody-levels-start-wane-around-2-3-months

A ton of other studies around transmission, T cells, including crucially in immunocompromised
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21268128v1
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02717-3/fulltext#seccestitle380

I mean I get the annual flu jab. I don't know what it'll mean with regards to covid vaccines in the future

What I will say is that I work in the East Midlands with high levels of omicron, and post-booster so far with some behavioural adjustments I didn't contract it. Which has meant being someone available to give vaccines in clinics, help out in A&E via locums and work in my usual day job as a GP with high staff absences. I honestly think I would get it at some point as I've only had surgical masks to work with in my hot clinics with covid patients face-to-face. During the busiest time of the year for our service and with services stretched, dunking on the booster vaccine is not right.

And I stress that most clinical staff I know as with the first two jabs were absolutely clamouring over each other to get this thing.

 

[jojojo]

The takeaway point for me from that video wasn't not to get vaxxed but if immunity is quickly diminished then whether folk need to have boosters more often on the front line?

It looks like infection protection against Omicron does fall fast - from 70%+ a week or so after the booster, to around 50% at 3 months. That's significantly worse than the waning against Delta infection. Infection protection against the next variant is anyone's guess.

In terms of broader immunity though - protection against hospitalisation is much higher. It remains higher, even after the infection protection fades.

As a compulsory requirement for hospital and care workers, it's a tough issue. I don't know what's making the unvaxxed in those situations hesitate. Fear isn't always a rational thing, nor is a belief in natural remedies (nature used to kill roughly half of us in childhood), but it is a thing worth understanding.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How quickly immunity is diminished is still up for date.

I've seen this UCL study cited a lot from July last year pre-booster suggesting reduction in antibody levels in 2-3 months but high degree of variability and also only 600 people studied
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2021/jul/vaccine-antibody-levels-start-wane-around-2-3-months

A ton of other studies around transmission, T cells, including crucially in immunocompromised
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21268128v1
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02717-3/fulltext#seccestitle380

I mean I get the annual flu jab. I don't know what it'll mean with regards to covid vaccines in the future

What I will say is that I work in the East Midlands with high levels of omicron, and post-booster so far with some behavioural adjustments I didn't contract it. Which has meant being someone available to give vaccines in clinics, help out in A&E via locums and work in my usual day job as a GP with high staff absences. I honestly think I would get it at some point as I've only had surgical masks to work with in my hot clinics with covid patients face-to-face. During the busiest time of the year for our service and with services stretched, dunking on the booster vaccine is not right.

And I stress that most clinical staff I know as with the first two jabs were absolutely clamouring over each other to get this thing.

Yeah, just to add to this I’m in a whatsapp group with my med school classmates. Loads of them got covid during the first wave, then vaccines seemed to protect them up until another bunch of them got sick right before the boosters were rolled out (which was annoyingly late for Irish HCWs but before the rest of the country) and they seem to have mainly avoided omicron after their third jab. Certainly much less frequent than among friends who weren’t yet boosted. Some of them even swerving household transmission. Obviously loads of people who were boosted still caught covid but it definitely seems to provide some level of protection. Totally unscientific “study” obviously!

Once this wave is over and we have clarity on exactly how “mild” omicron is there’s a discussion to be had about booster jabs vs letting natural immunity do its thing (for everyone below a certain age anyway) but it’s downright irresponsible for the guy in that video to say what he said in the middle of this current wave. Actually pisses me off. Especially his need to go public with his thoughts. What a prat.

 

[jojojo]

Especially his need to go public with his thoughts. What a prat.

Based on that link @Wolverine sent - at £500 for a first consult plus another £500 for the physical assessment tests at his clinic - I guess he's happy to get the advertising opportunity.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

At this point in time, it seems like it's the restrictions themselves that are causing the problems.

We can't unring the Omicron bell. But we can loosen the isolation rules to get staff back into hospitals as soon as they're fit to do so.

Also why not remove the requirement for unvaccinated people who have had contact with Covid but no symptoms themselves to isolate at all? There are anti vaxxers in my wife's work who have hardly been in lately (on full pay) due to this, despite not actually getting Covid themselves

 

[Withnail]

Really impressive the way the health secretary didn't even attempt to have a real conversation here. He just accepted everything your man said.

 

[africanspur]

Really impressive the way the health secretary didn't even attempt to have a real conversation here. He just accepted everything your man said.

Would you feel comfortable having a medical discussion with a consultant, being a non-medic yourself? I've got a lot of criticisms of Javid and the Tories, I don't think this is one of them.

And actually watching back, I disagree. He said what a non-expert could say. I respect what you're saying and that's your view and we've weighed things up but we've made the decision based on advice from vaccine/ ID/ public health experts (of which this anaesthetic consultant is not, for any of those areas).

This was always going to be an impossible situation for Javid. The consultant is going to be able to drop facts and statistics, even if they're misrepresented and do so in an authoritative manner. Frankly, you don't become a consultant in any specialty (especially a senior one) without developing supreme confidence in what you're saying and doing, even if sometimes thats incorrect.

On the surface, he's talking purely about mandatory vaccination for NHS staff but the consultant knows exactly how his comments were going to be interpreted at large. I note as well that he's the only one wearing a surgical mask, while the others are all wearing FFP3 masks. Whether that's a conscious decision or not, who knows. The other staff members said nothing, likely knowing that he'd butt in at some point (and I'm sure having made his views known). I also laughed at the manager in the background clearly sweating.

Though to be honest, I'm not really sure why he even asked the question in the first place?

 

[Withnail]

Would you feel comfortable having a medical discussion with a consultant, being a non-medic yourself? I've got a lot of criticisms of Javid and the Tories, I don't think this is one of them.

And actually watching back, I disagree. He said what a non-expert could say. I respect what you're saying and that's your view and we've weighed things up but we've made the decision based on advice from vaccine/ ID/ public health experts (of which this anaesthetic consultant is not, for any of those areas).

This was always going to be an impossible situation for Javid. The consultant is going to be able to drop facts and statistics, even if they're misrepresented and do so in an authoritative manner. Frankly, you don't become a consultant in any specialty (especially a senior one) without developing supreme confidence in what you're saying and doing, even if sometimes thats incorrect.

On the surface, he's talking purely about mandatory vaccination for NHS staff but the consultant knows exactly how his comments were going to be interpreted at large. I note as well that he's the only one wearing a surgical mask, while the others are all wearing FFP3 masks. Whether that's a conscious decision or not, who knows. The other staff members said nothing, likely knowing that he'd butt in at some point (and I'm sure having made his views known). I also laughed at the manager in the background clearly sweating.

Though to be honest, I'm not really sure why he even asked the question in the first place?

That's the problem with politicians I suppose. They're unqualified for practically every role they take on. I get that he may have been reluctant to get into a conversation with a health prefessional but I'd expect a health secretary, during a pandemic that's been going on for two years, to be clued up enough to be able to have a conversation around waning antibodies and why vaccines/boosters are recommended and to discuss whether his immunity from getting covid, however long ago, is on a par with someone who had just had their booster.

I noticed that about the mask alright. It was nearly off his nose at one point. The whole set up was a bit bizarre. Do they not vet who'd be on camera or did he just wander in to give his two cents? If Javid was asking, expecting kick-back, he didn't seem very prepared and has ended up allowing this message go out which will be lapped up by anti-vaxxers.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Would you feel comfortable having a medical discussion with a consultant, being a non-medic yourself? I've got a lot of criticisms of Javid and the Tories, I don't think this is one of them.

And actually watching back, I disagree. He said what a non-expert could say. I respect what you're saying and that's your view and we've weighed things up but we've made the decision based on advice from vaccine/ ID/ public health experts (of which this anaesthetic consultant is not, for any of those areas).

This was always going to be an impossible situation for Javid. The consultant is going to be able to drop facts and statistics, even if they're misrepresented and do so in an authoritative manner. Frankly, you don't become a consultant in any specialty (especially a senior one) without developing supreme confidence in what you're saying and doing, even if sometimes thats incorrect.

On the surface, he's talking purely about mandatory vaccination for NHS staff but the consultant knows exactly how his comments were going to be interpreted at large. I note as well that he's the only one wearing a surgical mask, while the others are all wearing FFP3 masks. Whether that's a conscious decision or not, who knows. The other staff members said nothing, likely knowing that he'd butt in at some point (and I'm sure having made his views known). I also laughed at the manager in the background clearly sweating.

Though to be honest, I'm not really sure why he even asked the question in the first place?

As per @Wolverine ‘s link on the previous page he seems like a bit of wellness (er, sorry, holistic medicine) crank who saw an opportunity to raise his profile.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

As per @Wolverine ‘s link on the previous page he seems like a bit of wellness (er, sorry, holistic medicine) crank who saw an opportunity to raise his profile.

The smear campaign already started. Surely he’s more concerned with the fact that he’ll be losing his job?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The smear campaign already started. Surely he’s more concerned with the fact that he’ll be losing his job?

Smear campaign. Good one.

 

[Wolverine]

The smear campaign already started. Surely he’s more concerned with the fact that he’ll be losing his job?

I think with his side hustle he should be ok. To be honest Im holding back with him.
There are vaccine hesitant who will see this clip and not take their jab. And ive seen many, too many die from what is a preventable illness.

we have a drastic shortage of anaesthetists in this country but as Ive got less sympathy for him now.

Most trusts from the comms arent firing unvaccinated clinical staff but changing their job to minimise face to face contact. Hard to see how its going to work with a cardiothoracic anaesthetist but basically feck him.

After what he would have seen with the trauma done with tubes, lines, ECMO, deaths of many (all ages) to say what he has said, with clear intent on sky news.

could have easily published an op-ed in BMJ where debate could have been had around pros and cons of mandatory clinical vaccination policy but did this knowing full well how it will play with vaccine hesitant. Feck him.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I like how the anti-vaxx crowd have taken this one anaesthetist’s opinion as gospel and are sharing it far and wide because he’s a doctor and therefore a medical expert. But are choosing to wilfully ignore the doctors and immunology experts who are in fairly unanimous agreement that vaccines work and are essential in our battle against the virus.

I don’t think this doc is claiming they don’t work though, or that they aren’t essential in the battle, is he?
He appears to simply be questioning the wisdom of how often vaccination would be required in order to maintain protection in all nhs staff. Prof Sir Andrew Pollard who helped develop the AZ vaccine is also now saying we can’t conceivably expect to vaccinate the entire population every 4 to 6 months, so demanding all staff be “fully vaccinated” or be fired when the NHS is already ridiculously short staffed does seem a little shortsighted to say the least.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

To be clear, based on that clip he’s not querying frequency of boosters, he’s saying he isn’t vaccinated at all. He’s also focussing on efficacy vs transmission and completely ignoring protection vs serious disease. Which is astonishing coming from someone who has surely been exposed to severely unwell covid patients. There’s no way you can spin what he said into anything other than dangerously misleading nonsense. Absolute shit-housery on his part.

 

[golden_blunder]

The smear campaign already started. Surely he’s more concerned with the fact that he’ll be losing his job?

At his prices I’m sure he will be fine

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The fact he lists “Advanced Practice Modules in GI and Detox in Nashville in 2018” as credentials on his website is a huge red flag. That and “Wellness lead”.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

At his prices I’m sure he will be fine

Charging people with breathing problems £500 to sit in a room him for an hour, unvaccinated and wearing inadequate PPE. Cnut.

 

[golden_blunder]

Charging people with breathing problems £500 to sit in a room him for an hour, unvaccinated and wearing inadequate PPE. Cnut.

Yep, that’s a good summary and an appropriate name.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

At his prices I’m sure he will be fine

Well for his sake I do hope so. If he is raking in the money outside of his traditional job, you have to believe he must enjoy his traditional job somewhat of coming to work and helping sick people. But fcuk him right let’s sack him and try and smear him just for having the audacity to ask why. Let’s not query why the man responsible for this decision ultimately could barely look him in the face or string a sentence together like the useless weasel he is. At a time where the NHS is struggling for staff too it beggars belief.

 

[Wolverine]

Also for NHS workers government policy kicking in first of April this year.This means that they will need to have had the first dose by 3rd February at the very latest and the second by 31st March, unless "clinically exempt".

The booster is not included in the regulations.

 

[africanspur]

Well for his sake I do hope so. If he is raking in the money outside of his traditional job, you have to believe he must enjoy his traditional job somewhat of coming to work and helping sick people. But fcuk him right let’s sack him and try and smear him just for having the audacity to ask why. Let’s not query why the man responsible for this decision ultimately could barely look him in the face or string a sentence together like the useless weasel he is. At a time where the NHS is struggling for staff too it beggars belief.

Let's be perfectly clear here. It isn't Javid who has made the decision, or the Tory party. They're being guided by actual experts in decisions like this (ie not this doctor, who is not). Particularly when as a party, they've been loath to make any kind of decision on any kind of restrictions at all.

Anyone who's worked in a hospital setting in the past 18 months and particularly in an ICU and decided not to get vaccinated is, in my opinion, an utter cretin. Even more so when you're a doctor who technically has been taught the ability to interpret studies and data for yourself.

The fact he's talking about how the evidence isn't strong enough, whilst ignoring the incredibly strong evidence at the very least that it prevents serious illness is quite something. The fact he choose to air these views, in the way he does, on national TV, knowing how it will 100% be taken, is something else. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt but the mask certainly sticks out like a sore thumb as well.

The fact that he's also into this wellness angle is just the cherry on the top.

 

[Wolverine]

Well for his sake I do hope so. If he is raking in the money outside of his traditional job, you have to believe he must enjoy his traditional job somewhat of coming to work and helping sick people. But fcuk him right let’s sack him and try and smear him just for having the audacity to ask why. Let’s not query why the man responsible for this decision ultimately could barely look him in the face or string a sentence together like the useless weasel he is. At a time where the NHS is struggling for staff too it beggars belief.

NHS struggling with staff absences from covid though.
If he wanted to help sick people he’d be promoting the cheap, safe and effective vaccines that negate ICU admissions with associated mortality and morbidity and strain the NHS through expensive, prolonged and debilitating hospital stays.

there is debate to be had sure. He didnt want that, he ambushed a non medical person on national tele. If he’d went about it by arguing in medical journals he’d have his ass handed to him.

 

[golden_blunder]

Well for his sake I do hope so. If he is raking in the money outside of his traditional job, you have to believe he must enjoy his traditional job somewhat of coming to work and helping sick people. But fcuk him right let’s sack him and try and smear him just for having the audacity to ask why. Let’s not query why the man responsible for this decision ultimately could barely look him in the face or string a sentence together like the useless weasel he is. At a time where the NHS is struggling for staff too it beggars belief.

Is he working NHS though? He’s charging extortionate private prices which is why I was being sarcastic.
Any health care worker in my opinion has a duty to be fully vaccinated or work somewhere where you aren’t face to face with vulnerable people

 

[Pexbo]

The fact he lists “Advanced Practice Modules in GI and Detox in Nashville in 2018” as credentials on his website is a huge red flag. That and “Wellness lead”.

Ironically that shit is catnip for antivaxxers

 

[africanspur]

That's the problem with politicians I suppose. They're unqualified for practically every role they take on. I get that he may have been reluctant to get into a conversation with a health prefessional but I'd expect a health secretary, during a pandemic that's been going on for two years, to be clued up enough to be able to have a conversation around waning antibodies and why vaccines/boosters are recommended and to discuss whether his immunity from getting covid, however long ago, is on a par with someone who had just had their booster.

I noticed that about the mask alright. It was nearly off his nose at one point. The whole set up was a bit bizarre. Do they not vet who'd be on camera or did he just wander in to give his two cents? If Javid was asking, expecting kick-back, he didn't seem very prepared and has ended up allowing this message go out which will be lapped up by anti-vaxxers.

I mean yes but realistically even if the MoH was a doctor, they'd still be guided by actual experts on these decisions. They could be a Cardiologist or a GP or Paediatrician and still not be particularly strong on immunology/infectious diseases/ public health. These are things people spend literally decades studying.

Javid will have seen a potential PR disaster looming, whereby a non-medical person tries to argue with a consultant anaesthetist/ ICU doctor about Covid and science. He was in a no-win situation and I think he couldn't have really done much differently.

As I said above, his mistake was asking that gormless question in the first place.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

Let's be perfectly clear here. It isn't Javid who has made the decision, or the Tory party. They're being guided by actual experts in decisions like this (ie not this doctor, who is not). Particularly when as a party, they've been loath to make any kind of decision on any kind of restrictions at all.

Anyone who's worked in a hospital setting in the past 18 months and particularly in an ICU and decided not to get vaccinated is, in my opinion, an utter cretin. Even more so when you're a doctor who technically has been taught the ability to interpret studies and data for yourself.

The fact he's talking about how the evidence isn't strong enough, whilst ignoring the incredibly strong evidence at the very least that it prevents serious illness is quite something. The fact he choose to air these views, in the way he does, on national TV, knowing how it will 100% be taken, is something else.

The fact that he's also into this wellness angle is just the cherry on the top.

Sorry but ultimately it is their decision and they’re the ones who are responsible for it and must be able to justify it. From day 1 Boris and Co have rammed it down our throats that they are listening to ‘the experts’ - call me a cynic but I feel this has always just been a cloak of self preservation and a way to pass responsibility, at least in the eyes of the public, onto someone else when they inevitably get things wrong. Given that a group of experts can in good faith have very different views - it’s still the government ministers who take it all into account and then make their own choices, so I don’t buy this notion that poor old Javid and friends simply get to wipe their hands of any responsibility and accountability.

 

[africanspur]

Is he working NHS though? He’s charging extortionate private prices which is why I was being sarcastic.
Any health care worker in my opinion has a duty to be fully vaccinated or work somewhere where you aren’t face to face with vulnerable people

Yep, he seems to be a consultant at Kings College Hospital, one of the biggest teaching hospitals in London.

Realistically, the private sector in the UK isn't really big enough for most doctors to sustain themselves through just private work so the overwhelming majority, even the lucky ones who make a bucket load through private work, tend to keep their feet in the NHS pool. Some specialties (mostly procedural ones like Surgery/ Gastroenterology/ O&G etc) have more scope for private work too.

Of course if he loses his job because of this and the private isn't enough, I'm sure he can go the Wakefield route.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I mean yes but realistically even if the MoH was a doctor, they'd still be guided by actual experts on these decisions. They could be a Cardiologist or a GP or Paediatrician and still not be particularly strong on immunology/infectious diseases/ public health. These are things people spend literally decades studying.

Javid will have seen a potential PR disaster looming, whereby a non-medical person tries to argue with a consultant anaesthetist/ ICU doctor about Covid and science. He was in a no-win situation and I think he couldn't have really done much differently.

As I said above, his mistake was asking that gormless question in the first place.

Ah. I misinterpreted your post above. I thought you were wondering why the doctor interrupted. Yes, it was an absolutely idiotic question from Javid. I guess that can happen when you’re live on camera and run out of things to say. But the obvious lack of any preparation and reliance on doing it all off the cuff is classic BoJo toryism.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

Is he working NHS though? He’s charging extortionate private prices which is why I was being sarcastic.
Any health care worker in my opinion has a duty to be fully vaccinated or work somewhere where you aren’t face to face with vulnerable people

Not sure mate I assumed he was a NHS employee given he is facing the sack but perhaps does a bit of moonlighting based on what others have said. I’m not really interested in him personally I just think he raised a fair point and exposed Javid for the inept prick he is.

 

[Wibble]

The fact he lists “Advanced Practice Modules in GI and Detox in Nashville in 2018” as credentials on his website is a huge red flag. That and “Wellness lead”.

Tin foil hat naturapath quack. The penalty should involve baseball bats. At least should if I weren't a pacifist.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

Tin foil hat naturapath quack. The penalty should involve baseball bats. At least should if I weren't a pacifist.

You are the most terrifying pacifist on the planet

 

[africanspur]

Sorry but ultimately it is their decision and they’re the ones who are responsible for it and must be able to justify it. From day 1 Boris and Co have rammed it down our throats that they are listening to ‘the experts’ - call me a cynic but I feel this has always just been a cloak of self preservation and a way to pass responsibility, at least in the eyes of the public, onto someone else when they inevitably get things wrong. Given that a group of experts can in good faith have very different views - it’s still the government ministers who take it all into account and then make their own choices, so I don’t buy this notion that poor old Javid and friends simply get to wipe their hands of any responsibility and accountability.

I'm struggling to understand your point here.

Do you think Javid and Johnson woke up one day and decided to just mandate vaccines for NHS staff on a whim? For a laugh? This is the same party that has to have a civil war every time it tries to pass even the mildest of Covid restrictions and where they have to send government ministers out on TV to plead about how they're only doing this because there is no other choice and its just temporary etc etc.

Whether its the right decision or not is another matter but they'll have been advised on what to do by medical and scientific experts. Of course sometimes they won't follow that advice because what may make sense from a narrow infectious disease/public health route, may not be the best overall decision for the country. Sometimes they won't because they're Tory cnuts and have other ideas. Sometimes like you said its a balance because different experts say different things and someone will have to make the decision. As you say, a group of experts can have different views and sometimes experts can become so sub-specialised that they become myopic in their views to literally anything other than their field.

Sometimes on this board I feel people are so blinded by their hatred of the Tories (rightly so in fairness) that they will believe some very random things. Reminds me of when the Kent variant first popped up and increased transmission and case numbers compared to the rest of Europe and some otherwise very sensible posters on here genuinely believed they were making up the variant as an excuse for their ineptness.

I've already made my own views clear on this board multiple times about my own discomfort about some of the measures being undertaken in Italy/France etc. Particularly when I keep on being told about how well those countries are doing with controlling Covid through their previous harsh measures....Mandating vaccines and health checks for health professionals though is not at all a new thing. In fact, you can't even get into medical school in the UK without evidence of about 10 different vaccination records.

 

[africanspur]

Ah. I misinterpreted your post above. I thought you were wondering why the doctor interrupted. Yes, it was an absolutely idiotic question from Javid. I guess that can happen when you’re live on camera and run out of things to say. But the obvious lack of any preparation and reliance on doing it all off the cuff is classic BoJo toryism.

True. We may be being unfair and perhaps there was a 50 minute long discussion prior that we weren't privy to and he just slipped and said it.

From a political pov, its just such a ridiculous question, with no upside though. Even if everyone agrees, what's he gained by asking the question. The downside is exactly what's happened.

Idiot.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

I'm struggling to understand your point here.

Do you think Javid and Johnson woke up one day and decided to just mandate vaccines for NHS staff on a whim? For a laugh? This is the same party that has to have a civil war every time it tries to pass even the mildest of Covid restrictions and where they have to send government ministers out on TV to plead about how they're only doing this because there is no other choice and its just temporary etc etc.

Whether its the right decision or not is another matter but they'll have been advised on what to do by medical and scientific experts. Of course sometimes they won't follow that advice because what may make sense from a narrow infectious disease/public health route, may not be the best overall decision for the country. Sometimes they won't because they're Tory cnuts and have other ideas. Sometimes like you said its a balance because different experts say different things and someone will have to make the decision. As you say, a group of experts can have different views and sometimes experts can become so sub-specialised that they become myopic in their views to literally anything other than their field.

Sometimes on this board I feel people are so blinded by their hatred of the Tories (rightly so in fairness) that they will believe some very random things. Reminds me of when the Kent variant first popped up and increased transmission and case numbers compared to the rest of Europe and some otherwise very sensible posters on here genuinely believed they were making up the variant as an excuse for their ineptness.

I've already made my own views clear on this board multiple times about my own discomfort about some of the measures being undertaken in Italy/France etc. Particularly when I keep on being told about how well those countries are doing with controlling Covid through their previous harsh measures....Mandating vaccines and health checks for health professionals though is not at all a new thing. In fact, you can't even get into medical school in the UK without evidence of about 10 different vaccination records.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you here, my point is that if Javid is responsible for this decision (he absolutely is) he should be able to fully justify it to the guys face, after all he is sealing his fate. If he really is sure about this decision and feels fully justified in putting his name behind it, presumably having considered a whole number of factors and strongly believes this is the correct path forward, as he should if he is to enact something like this - he should be able to without hesitation. The fact that he instead stuttered, cowered and squirmed makes me think twice..

 

[Pogue Mahone]

True. We may be being unfair and perhaps there was a 50 minute long discussion prior that we weren't privy to and he just slipped and said it.

From a political pov, its just such a ridiculous question, with no upside though. Even if everyone agrees, what's he gained by asking the question. The downside is exactly what's happened.

Idiot.

The only upside I can imagine is he can give the impression that “we want to listen the opinions of our frontline workers on this potentially controversial issue”, while
expecting zero chance of any push-back. That went well.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

The only upside I can imagine is he can give the impression that “we want to listen the opinions of our frontline workers on this potentially controversial issue”, while
expecting zero chance of any push-back. That went well.

It’s like he is so far detached from the frontline he forgot that the decisions he’s making actually impacts real people. Staggeringly David Brent like.

 

[11101]

I can't understand why the UK continues to give oxygen to these people. How many people watch that and have their mind made up not to get the vaccine. That would never be shown here.

I've been in the UK a month over Christmas and it's everywhere. Even as simple as the transport announcements 'please wear a mask, unless you are exempt, and remember some people's exemptions might not be visible'. Why say that?

 

[Tarrou]

I’m sure all Tories have been told to under absolutely no circumstances ever to get into a debate on the vaccines in public

little upside and a metric feck tonne of downside