SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

My lord I just had to share this. The sheer stupidity of people…

The Health Ministry here have just been showing a graph that shows the cases in Stockholm are now looking very good for the past week, but that the spread is now growing in other parts of the country. They are reminding everyone daily about risk groups, not slacking now etc etc.

In Sweden 76% of affected are men, 25% have diabetes type 2 and the average age is 61.

Now I shit you not, the missus old man is 61 and has type 2 diabetes. We were just on a walk with the pram and walked past a café in our little town, (just North of Stockholm) and the utter feckwit was inside this café grabbing some lunch. We told him to come out and saw he'd also been to the supermarket despite the fact that they have a risk group hour between 7-8.

We both gave him a dressing down and his excuse… "there's no-one around, I'm social distancing", add to that the fecker had vinyl gloves on and kept touching his mouth.

I swear to God, some days you do understand why some people are just too fecking stupid to be trusted.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think this is the bit many don't seem to get. Consuming rare wild animal meats, Rhino horn or elephant tusk dust etc are a true signal of prestige in China and believed to enhance a persons capabilities. It's a habit that goes back many generations and is deeply etched into cultural folklore and norms. It's exactly the very rich, influential and powerful (probably including Xi Jinping and the rest of his party elders) who consume in this trade and passionately believe in its benefits. So why would they ever agree to give up a cultural norm they passionately believe in, which goes on inside their own culture and country?

Non Chinese people may not understand or agree with this habit, just as Chinese, or Arabs or Africans don't understanding many European habits and norms. But even in 21st century globalised world, different cultures still practice fundamentally different habits. And in this instance, China's key decision makers you seek to influence are the main advocates of that habit. I can't see how anyone could credibly convince China to change.

Lots of ancient traditions are actively being forced to change. Because they’re shit traditions, that cause harm. Female Genital Mutilation would be an obvious example. If any ancient Chinese tradition is proven instrumental in this pandemic then it should be challenged just as vigorously.

 

[DoomSlayer]

If ever there was a time and place for the EU to prove that the U.K. was wrong to walk away THIS was the occasion. Sadly they have failed to step up to the plate. No concerted EU effort at all.

I don't mean to be nasty by saying this, but many citizens of the bigger and more powerful European countries seem to be unable to realise how much the rest rely on their actions.

We can talk about "solidarity", "equality", "democracy", but the reality is there are de facto leaders of the EU and they have massively failed to react to everything happening so far. The whole idea of a union goes out of the window when your first thought is to firstly use measures to only protect your own. My country Bulgaria is literally in the worst possible position, even though we don't have many cases so far. We are the poorest in the EU and the system has been internally usurped and corrupted since its' inception. I always thought that when we joined the EU, the big countries would demand that there is justice and all the organised criminal circles of political, economical power will not be tolerated. But it seems that our prime minister is the perfect lap dog for the major European and even world leaders, who he famously called "bosses" in an interview some years ago. As long as he and his ruling elite never question any of the policies of the EU and protect the financial interests of the powerful world countries, his corrupt leadership is not going to be touched.

 

[Rado_N]

I just went down a YouTube comments rabbit hole after someone I know posted a video of some gobshite spouting nonsense on Facebook about 5G. Which was a terrible idea. Conspiracy theory types are the absolute worst.

Your recommended video feed is going to be fun for a while.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

My lord I just had to share this. The sheer stupidity of people…

The Health Ministry here have just been showing a graph that shows the cases in Stockholm are now looking very good for the past week, but that the spread is now growing in other parts of the country. They are reminding everyone daily about risk groups, not slacking now etc etc.

In Sweden 76% of affected are men, 25% have diabetes type 2 and the average age is 61.

Now I shit you not, the missus old man is 61 and has type 2 diabetes. We were just on a walk with the pram and walked past a café in our little town, (just North of Stockholm) and the utter feckwit was inside this café grabbing some lunch. We told him to come out and saw he'd also been to the supermarket despite the fact that they have a risk group hour between 7-8.

We both gave him a dressing down and his excuse… "there's no-one around, I'm social distancing", add to that the fecker had vinyl gloves on and kept touching his mouth.

I swear to God, some days you do understand why some people are just too fecking stupid to be trusted.

Which is a great example of why the government should be taking these decisions out of the individual’s hands. Multiply that one incident by many thousands and you’ve got a strategy that’s doomed to fail.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Which is a great example of why the government should be taking these decisions out of the individual’s hands. Multiply that one incident by many thousands and you’ve got a strategy that’s doomed to fail.

But at the same time Pogue, what would stop the daft cnut going to the shop in the UK in the middle of the day with his shitty vinyl gloves thinking he’s fine?

 

[DoomSlayer]

Out of interest, could anybody explain to me what the EU has done as a collective thats any different to what we have in the uk? Have they shared PPE or ventilators as part of an EU wide agreement.? Have they shared Doctors and Nurses? Has there been any form of EU wide agreement on lockdown, both in timings and severity, or EU wide agreement on travel?
Im not been arsey by the way, im genuinely interested if the EU has actually acted as one, helping member states equally, or has it been a free for all, every state for itself. I know Germany has taken limited numbers from other states but im not aware that this was agreed in Brussels. I seem to recall that early in the pandemic Italy were asking for financial help but the silence from the rest of the EU was defening.

No, I would say there has been no actual solidarity when you take into account the severity of the crisis. Some European leaders have even gone on to say that the richer countries should not be paying for the problems of the poorer ones. I mean, if Italy got no real help from the big EU members, what hope do the smaller countries have for their future?

 

[sammsky1]

I wonder if you can understand that this has been discussed and shown many times over many years and is not a new concept to many of us.

And yet is being repeated in just past few pages on how 'Chinese must change or be punished' for their habits.

 

[sammsky1]

Lots of ancient traditions are actively being forced to change. Because they’re shit traditions, that cause harm. Female Genital Mutilation would be an obvious example. If any ancient Chinese tradition is proven instrumental in this pandemic then it should be challenged just as vigorously.

I don't generally disagree. But who is going to credibly do it, and why would they listen?

 

[oates]

And yet is being repeated in just past few pages on how 'Chinese must change or be punished' for their habits.

I'm not talking about punishment but it is interesting that is how you wish to portray the discussion. I did not promote changing their consuming of exotic and often almost extinct substances in spite of the rest of the World's concern but suggested that they could change some habit. Perhaps that might be travelling to other countries and killing their inhabitants if they wish to do things that the rest of the World are not keen on. Theirs is a choice, ours is not, Globalisation should involve observing the Social Contract, not our duty to 'punish'.

 

[Foxbatt]

I'm not talking about punishment but it is interesting that is how you wish to portray the discussion. I did not promote changing their consuming of exotic and often almost extinct substances in spite of the rest of the World's concern but suggested that they could change some habit. Perhaps that might be travelling to other countries and killing their inhabitants if they wish to do things that the rest of the World are not keen on. Theirs is a choice, ours is not, Globalisation should involve observing the Social Contract, not our duty to 'punish'.

This is sarcasm right?

 

[oates]

This is sarcasm right?

Not particularly, just an attempt to avoid some judgemental language.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

People that think China can be punished are living in cloud cuckoo land. The only way is to try to work with them on the matter.

 

[oates]

People that think China can be punished are living in cloud cuckoo land. The only way is to try to work with them on the matter.

Why are you talking about punishment?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

But at the same time Pogue, what would stop the daft cnut going to the shop in the UK in the middle of the day with his shitty vinyl gloves thinking he’s fine?

Nothing. But the café would have been closed, with no customers inside. I also think that the more radical changes are important to bring it home to people how serious this all is. You can’t really blame people for being a bit too casual about social distancing when the government is being similarly laid back.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't generally disagree. But who is going to credibly do it, and why would they listen?

Now that I can’t answer! You’d like to think that there could be some internal pressure but, like you say, that won’t be easy in such an authoritarian state.

 

[finneh]

What proportion of businesses did voluntarily close after a decent compensatory scheme was introduced?

I don't follow. I'm unaware of any scheme that has been introduced that compensated business?

 

[golden_blunder]

Look at the end of the day, impartial investigators are not going to get access to anything inside China so calling for punishment etc is just futile. What we should focus on is staying alive, and how we rebuild our own societies after this including mechanisms to protect the futures of our children and so on. Not to forget proper investigations into how our own respective governments handled the crisis

 

[Ady87]

Interestingly I've had a few friends say they've been on calls this morning and it sounds like further lockdown is pending.

I'm taking it as gossip at this point but it wouldn't surprise me if they've decided the only way they can handle the easter break is full lockdown.

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologies as this looks like it could be fake news. It's been dispelled on Twitter by an official South East Ambulance account.

I'm awaiting an update off my Mum who I'm now expecting will tell me it was a sent to her by a senior colleague and not the word of a senior colleague.

For what it's worth, if the change in protocol was true I would still expect them to come out and dispel the rumour to keep the public calm.

 

[oates]

Look at the end of the day, impartial investigators are not going to get access to anything inside China so calling for punishment etc is just futile. What we should focus on is staying alive, and how we rebuild our own societies after this including mechanisms to protect the futures of our children and so on. Not to forget proper investigations into how our own respective governments handled the crisis

Personally I haven't made or seen anyone calling for China to be punished but if you interpret Recompense or Restitution as Punishment then I'm afraid that you are in error because they are not the same thing.

 

[sammsky1]

I'm not talking about punishment but it is interesting that is how you wish to portray the discussion. I did not promote changing their consuming of exotic and often almost extinct substances in spite of the rest of the World's concern but suggested that they could change some habit. Perhaps that might be travelling to other countries and killing their inhabitants if they wish to do things that the rest of the World are not keen on. Theirs is a choice, ours is not, Globalisation should involve observing the Social Contract, not our duty to 'punish'.

My post wasn't directed at anybody specifically, rather just an addendum to @Alabaster Codify7 post. On a personal level, I'm also against these specific habits, because of these public health issues and species intinction challenges they pose. I'm simply trying to understand how it could happen.

As you agree, it's complicated, nuanced and historic. I've spent a lot of time in China and SE Asia over the years, and when I challenge my colleagues about elephant tusk consumption, they point out that it didn't stop colonial trophy hunters from killing elephants and tigers years ago.

It would be an amazing outcome if the world can agree 'a social contract' after this pandemic, but I just cant see Chinese agreeing to many of these demands, especially when the decision makers passionately believe in these habits. I was speaking last week to an ex UK ambassador and currently a senior civil servant at FCO reporting directly into Raab. He admitted there was no-one except Trump who'd even dare make such a request, and even then, China would just ignore it. We saw that post SARS, when China reopened said markets just 2 years later.

So it becomes a negotiation and may include serious brinkmanship. The West can decide to end all relations with China, socially and economically, but that also brings a whole host of new challenges. Yes, even we as posters on a football forum know all this, but it seems no-one knows how it practically plays out.

 

[oates]

My post wasn't directed anybody specifically, rather just an addendum to @Alabaster Codify7 post. On a personal level, I'm also against these specific habits, because of these public health issues and species intinction challenges they pose. I'm simply trying to understand how it could happen.

As you agree, it's complicated, nuanced and historic. I've spent a lot of time in China and SE Asia over the years, and when I challenge my colleagues about elephant tusk consumption, they point out that it didn't stop colonial trophy hunters from killing elephants and tigers years ago.

It would be an amazing outcome if the world can agree 'a social contract' after this pandemic, but I just cant see Chinese agreeing to many of these demands, especially when the decision makers passionately believe in these habits. I was speaking last week to an ex UK ambassador and currently a senior civil servant at FCO reporting directly into Raab. He admitted there was no-one except Trump who'd even dare make such a request, and even then, China would just ignore it. We saw that post SARS, when China reopened said markets just 2 years later.

So it becomes a negotiation and may include serious brinkmanship. The West can decide to end all relations with China, socially and economically, but that also brings a whole host of new challenges. Yes, even we as posters on a football forum know all this, but it seems no-one knows how it practically plays out.

I agree with you and I entirely accept that it is a complete pipe dream to hope that China could recompense the enormous debt that we and our countries will be left in but the onus is upon them to change because I do not believe that any of us will put up with repeat and again of this type of situation. Certainly it could bring about something very unsavoury that we definitely do not wish for in the future.

It's a simple concept but most of the World is so indebted to China as a country due to balance of payments, imports/exports etc that will never be paid back entirely and are merely serviced with interest payments and has become more or less a manner of keeping score, yes, as I said very simplistic. Perhaps we can all reset the board.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[Wumminator]

Horrendous numbers again

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Gonna be 900+ today then you would think, right? Taking all other regions into account.

 

[Wumminator]

Gonna be 900+ today then you would think, right? Taking all other regions into account.

Gonna be there or there abouts you would think.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Gonna be there or there abouts you would think.

Horrific, isnt it. This is where we are at now though, we're in the deep end for a good week I'd say. Hopefully we then start seeing a visible improvement.

 

[11101]

Spanish flu didn’t originate in Spain, for what it’s worth. Bet they felt a bit hard done by over the choice of name.

Every virus has to start somewhere. Enforced reparations on the country of origin seems like a shitty thing to do. That said, any government who is deliberately deceitful about the progress of a potential pandemic in their country should be held to account. Which would potentially involve a lot more countries than just China. Concrete evidence of this alleged deliberate deceit would be a good starting point, obviously.

I don't believe anybody should go after reparations but China should definitely be held to account in other ways. The world should no longer shrug its shoulders and say 'it's their culture' if a country allows obviously unsafe practices to carry on unchecked.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Nothing. But the café would have been closed, with no customers inside. I also think that the more radical changes are important to bring it home to people how serious this all is. You can’t really blame people for being a bit too casual about social distancing when the government is being similarly laid back.

You can’t get this more wrong though with Sweden, there really is nothing laid back about it.

I really wish you could watch the daily press conferences here by the health authority, so incredibly informative about what they are expecting, how it is working, how Stockholm has really flattened the curve, the next steps etc etc.

In a few weeks Austria, Norway, Denmark & others will also start to open, and daft feckers still gonna be daft feckers. The key will be how much you can limit that.

 

[stepic]

terrible numbers albeit expected. we still have up to another week of this level before we start seeing a (hopeful) drop off.

 

[golden_blunder]

Personally I haven't made or seen anyone calling for China to be punished but if you interpret Recompense or Restitution as Punishment then I'm afraid that you are in error because they are not the same thing.

Semantics. My point still remains, no one is getting inside China to investigate how long they sat on this thing etc. It’s a futile conversation.

 

[Skills]

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Do people still think we made the right call holding off taking action as long as possible? We're racking up numbers as high as Italy were at their worst, and we don't have the excuse of being caught unaware.

 

[Foxbatt]

I don't generally disagree. But who is going to credibly do it, and why would they listen?

They would but to police more than a billion people about exotic markets is going to be impossible. It is not the wet markets but the exotic markets that's the main issue.
Already Shenzhen has banned animals. China is a lot diverse and de regulated than most people think.
Xi is not omnipotent and is a not like Mao and if he makes mistakes or does anything crazy he will be replaced. It's like any other country as there is always someone who wants to pull down the leader and be the leader.
Best is to encourage them to keep a healthy standard.
The main reason why covid 19 happened has got nothing to do with the exotic market or Beijing.
The monitoring system Beijing had in place failed in Wuhan because of the local officials there. There was no hidden agenda by Beijing.
Losing face is an important part of the culture in Asia. Chinese have lost face. They lost face because of SAARS and was why they put the system in place. It failed this time and I am sure further heads will roll in Wuhan.

 

[oates]

Semantics. My point still remains, no one is getting inside China to investigate how long they sat on this thing etc. It’s a futile conversation.

May be entirely futile but there's no mistaking where it came from and there are or could be opportunities to discover how early this virus travelled however this is not semantics and I honestly wouldn't have taken you as one to think that.

 

[Wumminator]

Do people still think we made the right call holding off taking action as long as possible? We're racking up numbers as high as Italy were at their worst, and we don't have the excuse of being caught unaware.

A report today said we could have as many as 40% of all the deaths in Europe.

it’s been horrendously handled by us.

 

[Heardy]

Do people still think we made the right call holding off taking action as long as possible? We're racking up numbers as high as Italy were at their worst, and we don't have the excuse of being caught unaware.

Not sure much of the population thought that was right at the time. People were calling for action sooner than Boris went down the soft lockdown route.

 

[Smores]

This whole talk of blame and repatriation is just a can of worms. Economic incompetence, unnecessary wars, climate change are all issues that kill in the thousands and starting to attribute any blame or demand action is open to obvious claims of hypocrisy.

In an odd way i kind of agree with Trump that the WHO have failed in their task. Viruses happen and you can't say it wouldn't have happened anyway but globally we weren't ready for this. I suspect it's because the WHO were ignored and had no authority themselves but something needs to change.

 

[Skills]

Not sure much of the population thought that was right at the time. People were calling for action sooner than Boris went down the soft lockdown route.

There's plenty on here who thought it was right. Just 3 weeks ago affluent, like-minded folk were enjoying their sunday roasts because Boris hadn't closed them off yet.

 

[thebelfastboy]

Do people still think we made the right call holding off taking action as long as possible? We're racking up numbers as high as Italy were at their worst, and we don't have the excuse of being caught unaware.

It also seems to me that the media focus and reporting angle has changed here since the numbers started ramping up???
But it could just be that I/we are more accustomed to seeing these sorts of figures and they don't shock like they did in Italy and Spain??

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

There's plenty on here who thought it was right. Just 3 weeks ago affluent, like-minded folk were enjoying their sunday roasts because Boris hadn't closed them off yet.

When did France lockdown Skills?