SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Woodzy]

Obviously no one's going to really know the answer to this until the announcement on Sunday, but what do we think the likelihood of the average joe returning to their day job fairly soon will be?

Basically, it's fairly obvious that my employer is pushing to get people back into studio as soon as possible, despite us working fairly well from home, and it's quite stressful really.

 

[Dan_F]

Obviously no one's going to really know the answer to this until the announcement on Sunday, but what do we think the likelihood of the average joe returning to their day job fairly soon will be?

Basically, it's fairly obvious that my employer is pushing to get people back into studio as soon as possible, despite us working fairly well from home, and it's quite stressful really.

This is really frustrating and the government should make this clear, although I doubt they will. People who have the ability to work from home should continue to do that. Public transport should left for people that need to go to work in places like shops, where they clearly can’t work from home in any capacity.

I understand that you’ll get certain employees taking the piss, but it just makes zero sense for everyone to travel back to offices again.

 

[Heardy]

I understand that you’ll get certain employees taking the piss, but it just makes zero sense for everyone to travel back to offices again.

Surely any role that can be performed remotely, will continue to operate that way. I work an office job and there’s no sense of going back to the office anytime soon!!

Its really only roles where business have closed/shutdown that will “go back to work” after a two month hiatus.

 

[sewey89]

Surely any role that can be performed remotely, will continue to operate that way. I work an office job and there’s no sense of going back to the office anytime soon!!

Its really only roles where business have closed/shutdown that will “go back to work” after a two month hiatus.

I work in an office and work perfectly fine from home. But they're already putting plans in place to make the office 'safe' by social distancing and getting people back. Asking for volunteers who wants to go back etc

Seems such an unnecessary risk to me.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Hmmm, I get that they want their money back and don't want to be treated like mugs, but what is wrong with them?

They still might be better repurposed to somewhere rather than sent back. We've still got places making aprons out of bin liners for care workers etc.

If they knowingly supply employees (or anyone else) with protective equipment that they have examined and found non-compliant then anyone who gets sick or dies after wearing it will take them to the cleaners in court.

 

[RobinLFC]

If they knowingly supply employees (or anyone else) with protective equipment that they have examined and found non-compliant then anyone who gets sick or dies after wearing it will take them to the cleaners in court.

Not if they inform their employees of the issues they won't.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not if they inform their employees of the issues they won't.

I’m afraid it doesn’t work that way. They still have a duty of care.

 

[RobinLFC]

I’m afraid it doesn’t work that way. They still have a duty of care.

Informed consent by the employees would make sure that they can't go to court to complain afterwards - whether they would supply them with the masks is another, separate issue imo. It depends on what's meant by "safety standards", there have been orders in Belgium as well which weren't good enough to be supplied to medical personnel but they were still used in other places (e.g. sewing factories).

 

[buchansleftleg]

Well in central government the civil service are already briefing their staff that no matter what Boris Johnson says over the next few days or whatever gets "leaked" to the press....don't come into work on Monday morning.

It really is telling that decisions are clearly being made on the hoof and on the basis of how they might "float" with the public rather than proper strategic advice. Fot the civil service to almost have to brief against what the PM may or may not say says to me they are concerned that Boris might go down the "Trump" route and start giving conflicting messages depending on his audience again.

Companies should only be considering opening up if they have adequate measures in place like screens, revised room occupancies and floor markings etc. IF your staff get infected at this point and you haven't done this you will be massively liable.

What worries me most is that excess death data is still on an upward trend rather than declining as you would expect. We haven't got accurate numbers on deaths in care homes and the data on new cases in hospitals looks an awful lot like a weekly distribution rather than an ongoing decline. I'm sure that some agent of transmission is still out there generating a high number of new cases. It could be care workers and visitors who are trying to work without proper PPE or construction and retail staff who have kept working throughout the "lockdown" - who knows! The absence of a steep decline in new cases is deeply troubling.

Opening things up this early will just be madness and hurt pride at seeming to lag behind Germany...Italy...Spain. A government with more humility and less bluster would have saved more lives and this won't ever be forgotten.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Informed consent by the employees would make sure that they can't go to court to complain afterwards - whether they would supply them with the masks is another, separate issue imo. It depends on what's meant by "safety standards", there have been orders in Belgium as well which weren't good enough to be supplied to medical personnel but they were still used in other places (e.g. sewing factories).

An employee could still sue their employer if they were asked to consent to using equipment that is known in advance won’t keep them safe. There’s a responsibility on the employer to make sure that situation never arises.

Anyhoo. I agree they might be able to use them in other settings but then it comes back to the NHS taking a financial hit for something which gives them no benefit.

 

[RobinLFC]

Another good day in Belgium: "only" 80 new deaths, and less than 100 hospital admissions, while 244 patients left the hospital and a record 116 left ICU. Only 2.6k corona-related patients in the hospitals now, while the peak a month ago had 6k+ hospital admissions. 538 ICU patients remaining for now.

We're loosening restrictions as from Sunday though and shops re-open on Monday, so reaaaally it's fingers crossed that the majority keeps their common sense and the downward trend continues.

In the Netherlands, pubs and restaurants will likely re-open again on June 1 for 30 people max, and 100 people max as from July 1.

 

[United Hobbit]

Obviously no one's going to really know the answer to this until the announcement on Sunday, but what do we think the likelihood of the average joe returning to their day job fairly soon will be?

Basically, it's fairly obvious that my employer is pushing to get people back into studio as soon as possible, despite us working fairly well from home, and it's quite stressful really.

I work in an office and work perfectly fine from home. But they're already putting plans in place to make the office 'safe' by social distancing and getting people back. Asking for volunteers who wants to go back etc

Seems such an unnecessary risk to me.

Mines exactly the same the owner has already started making noises about getting the office open again and some people who fair enough couldn't work from home, have already been recalled back. They seem really keen to get people back, I am less keen especially as I can do all my work from home. I'm the most stress and worried I've been since it started. I'm worried about my partner having to go back to using public transport however his company are obsessed with meetings over every little thing so no doubt they will be desperate to get people back even though he can wfh. Mine keeps on about how people miss the "office banter." I dont I'm antisocial and like wfh without the air con blasting germs around and all the office politics but because some people miss the "banter" it sounds like they want everyone to go back to normal so they can have banter again... also I suspect if the managers want to go back and prefer being in the office they will just do what they want who cares about how the minions feel.

I'd like to think it will stay in the current state at least until after the bank holiday end of may or people will go stupid. Then gradually ease up small things eg garden centres, allow people to play golf on their own/ with their own household, things like fishing etc.

Unfortunately I think the media pressure hasn't helped and we are a couple of weeks behind the other European countries who are just starting to lift theirs it feels rushed and desperate, I'd have thought as Boris had had the virus himself he would be very cautious but there seems to have been a complete u turn yet very little has changed the deaths are still in the hundreds

 

[11101]

It really is crazy that the UK is talking about ending lockdown already. Even if they don't, you can see in other countries that mere talk of it encourages people to ignore the rules.

Germany relaxed theirs at around 1,000 cases/100 deaths per day, Italy at 1,000/200, Spain 2,000/200. The UK is talking about doing it whilst still posting 6,000 cases and 600 deaths per day. Do they not understand how far behind everybody else they are? The relaxed lockdown has kept people happier but dragged the recovery out far longer.

 

[balaks]

It really is crazy that the UK is talking about ending lockdown already. Even if they don't, you can see in other countries that mere talk of it encourages people to ignore the rules.

Germany relaxed theirs at around 1,000 cases/100 deaths per day, Italy at 1,000/200, Spain 2,000/200. The UK is talking about doing it whilst still posting 6,000 cases and 600 deaths per day. Do they not understand how far behind everybody else they are? The relaxed lockdown has kept people happier but dragged the recovery out far longer.

But but but the economy

 

[VP89]

It really is crazy that the UK is talking about ending lockdown already. Even if they don't, you can see in other countries that mere talk of it encourages people to ignore the rules.

Germany relaxed theirs at around 1,000 cases/100 deaths per day, Italy at 1,000/200, Spain 2,000/200. The UK is talking about doing it whilst still posting 6,000 cases and 600 deaths per day. Do they not understand how far behind everybody else they are? The relaxed lockdown has kept people happier but dragged the recovery out far longer.

They are set to release a roadmap for lockdown easing no? I don't think they will relax much from monday, the political editor of BBC says today the lock-down will "largely stay in place". Maybe some businesses that can continue with social distancing or something. I know GPs will begin taking patients now for example, whereas before patients could not enter GP surgeries unless it was for an infant.

 

[Smores]

It really is crazy that the UK is talking about ending lockdown already. Even if they don't, you can see in other countries that mere talk of it encourages people to ignore the rules.

Germany relaxed theirs at around 1,000 cases/100 deaths per day, Italy at 1,000/200, Spain 2,000/200. The UK is talking about doing it whilst still posting 6,000 cases and 600 deaths per day. Do they not understand how far behind everybody else they are? The relaxed lockdown has kept people happier but dragged the recovery out far longer.

It sounds like the changes are going to be quite minor and in effect still a lockdown. You're 100% correct that even talking about it will cause people to flout the rules this weekend though.

The UK isn't ready to implement test and trace so the best we can do is low level managed spread for now. With the right wing media going a bit Trump i think the government will cave before we're ready.

 

[Ish]

Another good day in Belgium: "only" 80 new deaths, and less than 100 hospital admissions, while 244 patients left the hospital and a record 116 left ICU. Only 2.6k corona-related patients in the hospitals now, while the peak a month ago had 6k+ hospital admissions. 538 ICU patients remaining for now.

We're loosening restrictions as from Sunday though and shops re-open on Monday, so reaaaally it's fingers crossed that the majority keeps their common sense and the downward trend continues.

In the Netherlands, pubs and restaurants will likely re-open again on June 1 for 30 people max, and 100 people max as from July 1.

Bit of normality coming back which is good news. Let's hope it doesn't result in mass stupidity and lots of spikes in cases.

 

[RobinLFC]

Bit of normality coming back which is good news. Let's hope it doesn't result in mass stupidity and lots of spikes in cases.

Which is what we're afraid of. Hopefully people realize that the virus isn't gone just because we're allowed to see others in a limited capacity now, and are still vigilant in their behaviour. There'll be people who don't care anymore no doubt, but let's hope it's a minority and most realize that we still need to be careful.

How's it going in Cape Town / South Africa? Still got enough alcohol left?

 

[redshaw]

This is the order that we promised was coming despite it not existing yet and then spent days desperately trying to get it including sending a plane to force them?

Almost like they took anything knowing they had to meet their promise somehow.

Yes that's the one. The RAF plane had to stay overnight as the stock hadn't arrived.

It really is crazy that the UK is talking about ending lockdown already. Even if they don't, you can see in other countries that mere talk of it encourages people to ignore the rules.

Germany relaxed theirs at around 1,000 cases/100 deaths per day, Italy at 1,000/200, Spain 2,000/200. The UK is talking about doing it whilst still posting 6,000 cases and 600 deaths per day. Do they not understand how far behind everybody else they are? The relaxed lockdown has kept people happier but dragged the recovery out far longer.

It does sound crazy but the "lockdown" hasn't quite worked so far.

Think it was a month ago I said mid May to early June is probably when they'll have to ease back just based on the length of time people will accept and the government will have difficult decisions to lift working restrictions while posting 400-500 deaths a day by then.

Supposedly this Sunday there will be announcements, maybe they can delay it a bit longer but at some point we'll just have to see if UK can ease off gradually while keeping the deaths down.

 

[djembatheking]

There has already been a huge relaxation in North Wales , people out and about everywhere . Could cause problems very quickly as the NHS is stretched at the best of times . It has a knock on effect with locals too, theres been a few pubs raided for letting people in the back door for lock ins .

 

[Brwned]

Obviously no one's going to really know the answer to this until the announcement on Sunday, but what do we think the likelihood of the average joe returning to their day job fairly soon will be?

Basically, it's fairly obvious that my employer is pushing to get people back into studio as soon as possible, despite us working fairly well from home, and it's quite stressful really.

Very unlikely I think.

In the US' 3 phase federal plan, "unrestricted staffing of worksites" resumes in phase 3 (which is a minimum of 6 weeks from the beginning, and likely longer). Until then employers are asked to "encourage telework whenever possible".

Ireland's plan is one of the most comprehensive released and it's much more specific on that.

• In phase 1 (18th May) there's a phased return of outdoor workers (construction, gardening, etc.)
• In phase 2 (8th June) it's a return of workers that can maintain 2m distances constantly (e.g. people who do solitary work)
• In phase 3 (29th June) it's a return of employees with low levels of daily interaction
• It's only in phase 5 (10th August) when there is a "phased return to onsite working" for everyone

Ireland's is a particularly conservative timeline but I'd be surprised if the UK's phases differed dramatically from them. There will be ambiguity in there that allows employers to wrongly assign themselves to a particular business type and force their employees to come back earlier than the folks providing the guidelines would want, but we're a while away from that.

The likes of Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Czech Republic, Austria etc. have all released some kind of plan and from what I've seen they've made no mention of work outside manufacturing, retail and leisure, which generally follows the principles of outdoor areas first and then small, unenclosed places next. That suggests they're expecting office workers to telework for months. The only occasional exception to that is some public offices opening earlier.

 

[blue blue]

So it took them what a couple of week to tell the WHO from first reports and a few more weeks before they started to tell the world? When should they have locked down to stop it spreading in your opinion?

I have little forgiveness for this idea that China let it spread when they locked down far quicker than most nations stopped inbound flights and leaders dismissed it as nonsense. I genuinely don't think other nations would have done any better and probably worse if anything considering how soft touch we are comparatively.

The conditions that caused first human transmission sure but everything else is a diversionary blame game.

Alsl I don't believe many of these unconfirmed December cases, unless they'd been to China the chances are remote. I had something which now I'd think was covid but it was clearly just the usual flu/influenza viruses circilating and it's human nature to connect the two.

As I say more will come out in time. I think the Wuhan Government were aware at least by 31st December 2019. I have read reports of Chinese doctors identifying a new virus before this date but they were ignored. We will see.

This region has had problems in the past and they should have taken the new virus more seriously. This is not a diversionary blame game. Its trying to find out how it happened and how it can be prevented in the future. The origins and spread of this virus need to be investigated to stop it happening again.

Why do you think the chances of the early cases are remote? There are kranks but we don't know who had it. The French case is interesting because the guy hadn't traveled to China yet he tested positive 27th December. This suggest the virus was in France long before that date. There's evidence coming out all the time.

 

[Ish]

Which is what we're afraid of. Hopefully people realize that the virus isn't gone just because we're allowed to see others in a limited capacity now, and are still vigilant in their behaviour. There'll be people who don't care anymore no doubt, but let's hope it's a minority and most realize that we still need to be careful.

How's it going in Cape Town / South Africa? Still got enough alcohol left?

Yeah, you get those types of people everywhere. Hahaha people are moaning about the lack of alcohol and cigarettes. It's not been sold for - going on to 2 months now

It's going alright. We tried and did a decent job of locking down (had one of the strictest - if not the strictest lockdowns in the world)....but our economy has taken a massive hit and people have lost their jobs etc. Our economy isn't strong enough to really support people to stay at home and we started easing restrictions (by a small margin now) - with a plan in place to gradually open up more and more. We've flattened the curve, but I don't think that'll be enough to stop a spike a couple of months down the line - as people are slowly being integrated back into the economy. I read a forecast saying we're going to be hardest hit during July/August - but the government is caught between a rock and a hard place.This isn't a first world country - lots of people live day by day, putting food on the table. So if the virus doesn't infect us, poverty, starvation and the threat of crime will.

Here's hoping it goes a lot better than those forecasts though, but kudos to the government for at least acting decisively and quickly.

 

[africanspur]

I'm going to go slightly against the majority opinion on this thread/ forum, where so many posts seem to be about how terribly the British government have done (generally agree) and how stupid/ spoilt/ insert negative adjective here the British public are.

I think the characterisations of British people in this regard is a bit unfair. Perhaps the rest of the UK is some huge rave but in London, the streets are pretty much empty for the most part outside of peak hours (even then, much less busy). I've just received an email from TFL saying underground and train journeys within London are down by 95% and bus journeys are down by 85% (even though it is now free).

Polls seem to show we're currently amongst the populations most eager to stay in lockdown.

Of course there will always be some idiots. And there will will always be exceptions to people following well, especially as our lockdown has been, to some extent, a light touch.

I'm just not seeing this flagrant and widespread disregard of the rules though I have to say.

 

[Rajma]

UK is essentially paying for not locking down way earlier and going herd immunity way rather than taking responsibility and controlling the spread themselves (of course the later would have required a lot more nous and effort from the government in terms of planning and whatnot, essentially, what I'm saying is your gov has been exposed for being lazy thick cnuts hoping it all just goes away by itself).

 

[JPRouve]

As I say more will come out in time. I think the Wuhan Government were aware at least by 31st December 2019. I have read reports of Chinese doctors identifying a new virus before this date but they were ignored. We will see.

This region has had problems in the past and they should have taken the new virus more seriously. This is not a diversionary blame game. Its trying to find out how it happened and how it can be prevented in the future. The origins and spread of this virus need to be investigated to stop it happening again.

Why do you think the chances of the early cases are remote? There are kranks but we don't know who had it. The French case is interesting because the guy hadn't traveled to China yet he tested positive 27th December. This suggest the virus was in France long before that date. There's evidence coming out all the time.

Two things retrospectively the first definite case in Wuhan was on December 8th but chinese authorities believe that it wasn't the first case and that the virus was circulating in November. The second point, you can't prevent it and particularly when it's not particularly discernible from a serious case of flu with respiratory complications, the only way to notice it is when a large amount of people are diagnosed with pneumonia of unknown source which will take weeks if not months.

 

[Rajma]

Two things retrospectively the first definite case in Wuhan was on December 8th but chinese authorities believe that it wasn't the first case and that the virus was circulating in November. The second point, you can't prevent it and particularly when it's not particularly discernible from a serious case of flu with respiratory complications, the only way to notice it is when a large amount of people are diagnosed with pneumonia of unknown source which will take weeks if not months.

One thing I can't wrap my head around though how this thing didn't spread across China given that authorities have taken measures only mid January.

 

[Maticmaker]

Highly suitable for the furloughed then, two and half k a month ain't bad.

Yes, that's the point backing up what you said, pay enough money then people will do the job. Its as always been the case, its not a big secret really although reading many of the posts on here you think it was.
In what might be described as 'normal times', since everybody from the farmer through to the retailer has to make a profit, the people who do the hard work are paid paltry sums, if they were paid reasonably then the consumer would have to pay more...and we can't have that can we?
Using furlough payments the tax payer is still footing the bill, are they not?

 

[sullydnl]

I'm going to go slightly against the majority opinion on this thread/ forum, where so many posts seem to be about how terribly the British government have done (generally agree) and how stupid/ spoilt/ insert negative adjective here the British public are.

I think the characterisations of British people in this regard is a bit unfair. Perhaps the rest of the UK is some huge rave but in London, the streets are pretty much empty for the most part outside of peak hours (even then, much less busy). I've just received an email from TFL saying underground and train journeys within London are down by 95% and bus journeys are down by 85% (even though it is now free).

Polls seem to show we're currently amongst the populations most eager to stay in lockdown.

Of course there will always be some idiots. And there will will always be exceptions to people following well, especially as our lockdown has been, to some extent, a light touch.

I'm just not seeing this flagrant and widespread disregard of the rules though I have to say.

None of the stats and opinion polls I've seen or even conversations I've had with people living in the UK seem to indicate an unusual disregard for the rules. As an outsider looking in it seems pretty clear that the government is the problem, not the people. But maybe I'd think differently if I was actually living there, who knows.

Though even if people in the UK did have a more lax attitude, that's something government influence too.

 

[JPRouve]

One thing I can't wrap my head around though how this thing didn't spread across China given that authorities have taken measures only mid January.

Well you probably noticed that there isn't a single country that has seen the virus spread everywhere uniformly, now there have been clusters in Shenhzen and I believe Guangzhou too among other places, they also have registered isolated cases across the country. But it is an interesting question why the virus hit some areas more than others?

 

[Rajma]

Today gov. has published results from a country wide random population testing (mostly those who work in close proximity to other people; cashiers, shop assistants, etc.) hoping to find out the approximation for asymptomatic cases. So, 1 case out of 8k came back positive.

 

[SteveJ]

Meanwhile in Little House on the Prairie:

NASUWT, the teachers’ union, says that schools have been asking teachers to come into work during lockdown to decorate classrooms.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Hmmm, I get that they want their money back and don't want to be treated like mugs, but what is wrong with them?

They’re Bootcut

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Obviously no one's going to really know the answer to this until the announcement on Sunday, but what do we think the likelihood of the average joe returning to their day job fairly soon will be?

Basically, it's fairly obvious that my employer is pushing to get people back into studio as soon as possible, despite us working fairly well from home, and it's quite stressful really.

My employer is openly discussing the possibility of no required return this year.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Just come back from a trip to the shopping mall. It was bizarre, the entire food court was open but the seating area closed off with tape so people were sitting on the stairs to eat. Can't wait until this nonsense ends next week and restaurants and pubs open properly. Also, the queue outside IKEA was funny.

 

[Brwned]

I'm going to go slightly against the majority opinion on this thread/ forum, where so many posts seem to be about how terribly the British government have done (generally agree) and how stupid/ spoilt/ insert negative adjective here the British public are.

I think the characterisations of British people in this regard is a bit unfair. Perhaps the rest of the UK is some huge rave but in London, the streets are pretty much empty for the most part outside of peak hours (even then, much less busy). I've just received an email from TFL saying underground and train journeys within London are down by 95% and bus journeys are down by 85% (even though it is now free).

Polls seem to show we're currently amongst the populations most eager to stay in lockdown.

Of course there will always be some idiots. And there will will always be exceptions to people following well, especially as our lockdown has been, to some extent, a light touch.

I'm just not seeing this flagrant and widespread disregard of the rules though I have to say.

It's all relative I suppose. Obviously people are out much less than they were pre-lockdown, but they're out much more than countries in comparable situation. Some days people are going to the park just as much as they were pre-lockdown, while for France, Spain or Italy that would be absolutely absurd.

 

[Kag]

But but but the economy

What do you mean by this remark? The economy is important and if it fails, and businesses go bust, and jobs are lost, poor people will die.

 

[Kag]

I'm going to go slightly against the majority opinion on this thread/ forum, where so many posts seem to be about how terribly the British government have done (generally agree) and how stupid/ spoilt/ insert negative adjective here the British public are.

I think the characterisations of British people in this regard is a bit unfair. Perhaps the rest of the UK is some huge rave but in London, the streets are pretty much empty for the most part outside of peak hours (even then, much less busy). I've just received an email from TFL saying underground and train journeys within London are down by 95% and bus journeys are down by 85% (even though it is now free).

Polls seem to show we're currently amongst the populations most eager to stay in lockdown.

Of course there will always be some idiots. And there will will always be exceptions to people following well, especially as our lockdown has been, to some extent, a light touch.

I'm just not seeing this flagrant and widespread disregard of the rules though I have to say.

I agree entirely.

Folk are just interested in having a grammatically abhorrent whinge on Facebook to boost their sense of self-worth.

 

[ThierryHenry]

I'm going to go slightly against the majority opinion on this thread/ forum, where so many posts seem to be about how terribly the British government have done (generally agree) and how stupid/ spoilt/ insert negative adjective here the British public are.

I think the characterisations of British people in this regard is a bit unfair. Perhaps the rest of the UK is some huge rave but in London, the streets are pretty much empty for the most part outside of peak hours (even then, much less busy). I've just received an email from TFL saying underground and train journeys within London are down by 95% and bus journeys are down by 85% (even though it is now free).

Polls seem to show we're currently amongst the populations most eager to stay in lockdown.

Of course there will always be some idiots. And there will will always be exceptions to people following well, especially as our lockdown has been, to some extent, a light touch.

I'm just not seeing this flagrant and widespread disregard of the rules though I have to say.

Couldn't agree more. There's a huge desire for people to show their superiority, and to point out those who are being dimmer than they are, with pictures of busy parks etc. Undoubtedly true in some cases, but the vast majority of people in the UK have done extremely well in lockdown, and in many cases, at significant personal sacrifice.

The slowness of our government to react, and the fact that London is one of the world's major global cities (alongside the likes of Paris and New York) is why we're in this mess, not the behaviour of the general public.

 

[balaks]

What do you mean by this remark? The economy is important and if it fails, and businesses go bust, and jobs are lost, poor people will die.

I know it is important, very important but we shouldn't rush measures through because of our concern for the economy. If we do that we run the danger of a second massive spike in infections which will cause an even more damaging second lockdown which would likely be more severe and longer lasting. My view is keep this shut down now needs to be for longer and relaxed extremely cautiously to avoid things quickly getting out of control which will damage the economy in an even more severe way.