SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[JMack1234]

I thought you said the public were ready to have an adult conversation about it? If that conversation doesn't go the way you want it to, choosing to just ignore the bits you don't like is a bit childish, surely?

I'm not ignoring anything.

I just have enough empathy in me to understand why people fail at social distancing. I'm not endorsing it or calling for it or anything like that.

But I believe that we've being asked to make an extraordinary sacrifice and I understand how and why people fall short.

 

[Wibble]

I could write that plan right now.

Not because I’m brighter than everyone in Boris’ cabinet, though that’s probably the case....

But because I’d just cherry pick from the rest of the world.

It’s half a days work for one person to lash something together that would leave the UK in better shape.

My cat could come up with a better plan and clearer messaging than BoJo and his bunch of clowns.

Actually I just asked her and I'm fairly sure her plan is "Stay home and lick yourself". Clear and far more effective than the UK plan TBH.

 

[JMack1234]

I don't think you know what barbaric is.

It is hard to police because of the woeful leadership and confused messaging form the government.

It's subjective.

I personally believe forced separation is barbaric, you may not. We have different opinions.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

My cat could come up with a better plan and clearer messaging than BoJo and his bunch of clowns.

Actually I just asked her and I'm fairly sure her plan is "Stay home and lick yourself". Clear and far more effective than the UK plan TBH.

I went for a third stage interview with the Nudge Unit. It Felt like such a cool gig. Effecting large societal change through tiny inputs.

Now it feels like I dodged a bullet.

This situation isn’t an accident. It’s not ineptitude. It’s designed and implemented.

So upsetting.

 

[DVG7]

It's subjective.

I personally believe forced separation is barbaric, you may not. We have different opinions.

If we didn’t have phones, computers, the postal service, the ability to see people but maintain 6 feet distance etc etc then I’d agree it’s pretty barbaric.

 

[Marcelinho87]

So how does this work then...

My partner now has to go back to work and I have to go back to full time hours... My kids now do what?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

So how does this work then...

My partner now has to go back to work and I have to go back to full time hours... My kids now do what?

Conga

 

[TMDaines]

My initial reaction was that the overall tone and messaging of Boris’s speech was pretty good, but people have rightly pointed out all of the contradictions within it since then. I don’t think I’ve ever seen as much open criticism of the PM on the BBC, as there was in the news special that followed.

It feels increasingly as a country as if we are being punished for a lack of initial testing and tracing infrastructure, as well as making a series of mistakes early on, and are now reaching the lockdown fatigue that so many of us reckoned on, when we really need to maintain it. We’re now trying to reconcile contradictory desires to both stay at home to reduce the spread, as well as allowing the country and economy to function as entirely necessary to not cause greater harm.

We’re completely fecked.

 

[Wibble]

It's subjective.

I personally believe forced separation is barbaric, you may not. We have different opinions.

Not like you are locked in solitary confinement. Of course the whole thing is stressful but it isn't in any way barbaric for the vast majority who have many ways of staying connected.

 

[jymufc20]

It's subjective.

I personally believe forced separation is barbaric, you may not. We have different opinions.

Saving friends, families and countless strangers lives is barbaric ? Ok.

 

[Tarrou]

You do realise that a serious economic crash will cause more death than this virus ever will? So what do we do? Stay indoors in the fear it might kill us?

What are you basing that prediction on?

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-02/bifg-t2r020719.php

The authors cite several factors to explain this correlation between economic recession and a faster decline in mortality. In the opinion of Joan Ballester, ISGlobal researcher and first author of the study, "Periods of macroeconomic recession are associated with lower levels of pollution and fewer accidents in the workplace and on the roads. These are the factors most likely to have the greatest influence on accelerating the decline in mortality. Alcohol and tobacco consumption also fall during periods of greater austerity, as do the prevalences of sedentary lifestyles and obesity. While the underlying mechanisms are still not well established, the findings of some studies also point to the influence of other factors, such as work stress and the fact that healthy habits demand time, something less available to a person working in a full-time job."

 

[JMack1234]

Saving friends, families and countless strangers lives is barbaric ? Ok.

I never said it wasn't necessary.... but if someone hugs their Mum I won't climb on my high horse and indulge in the po-faced indignation that others do.

Not like you are locked in solitary confinement. Of course the whole thing is stressful but it isn't in any way barbaric for the vast majority who have many ways of staying connected.

Yeah, none of which come anywhere near compensating for personal interaction.

If we didn’t have phones, computers, the postal service, the ability to see people but maintain 6 feet distance etc etc then I’d agree it’s pretty barbaric.

All of those of are useful but are sorry replacements for human to human interaction.

 

[2mufc0]

I never said it wasn't necessary.... but if someone hugs their Mum I won't climb on my high horse and indulge in the po-faced indignation that others do.



Yeah, none of which come anywhere near compensating for personal interaction.



All of those of are useful but are sorry replacements for human to human interaction.

I don't see where you are going with all of this, you agree it's necessary so why continue arguing?

These are unprecedented times which are unlikely to happen again in your lifetime, not seeing your loved ones for a few months is a very small price to pay to save lives.

The other option is herd immunity and carry on like normal, but there's a good chance people's parents won't survive down this route. So arguing against it is nonsensical.

 

[JMack1234]

I don't see where you are going with all of this, you agree it's necessary so why continue arguing?

These are unprecedented times which are unlikely to happen again in your lifetime, not seeing your loved ones for a few months is a very small prove to pay to save lives.

That's what I'm arguing about.

It is not a 'very small price' it's a massive price that we're all paying. Especially the young, who've been absolutely stuffed by the policy the government has followed.

 

[2mufc0]

That's what I'm arguing about.

It is not a 'very small price' it's a massive price that we're all paying. Especially the young, who've been absolutely stuffed by the policy the government has followed.

I don't think you've weighed it all up properly then, if one of your elderly loved ones die due to contact that could have been prevented I don't think that's a small price to pay.

There are people who live away from their loved ones for months and even years for various reasons, it's manageable and imo you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[2mufc0]

Stay at home read some books, work on your own personal development, work out, do house work, do some gardening, watch some films, play some video games, write/speak to friends family etc.. It really isn't a tough ask to stay put for a bit.

 

[JMack1234]

Stay at home read some books, work on your own personal development, work out, do house work, do some gardening, watch some films, play some video games, write/speak to friends family etc.. It really isn't a tough ask to stay put for a bit.

Yeah it's hard to to some gardening if you don't have a garden but who doesn't have a garden eh?

That's very easy to write but it's hard to do, I'm abiding by the measures under protest but I resent people trying to enforce some sort of blitz spirit. The reason we can't see our friends and families isn't a consequence of a virus, it's a consequence of a government policy. So forgive me if I don't partake in this faux-blitz spirit that has become almost compulsory. Forgive me if I don't stand on my doorstep clapping like a performing seal every Thursday and forgive the people who decide that they aren't putting up with.

 

[Wibble]

Yeah, none of which come anywhere near compensating for personal interaction.

It isn't the same but it is good enough given the alternative is extra dead people.

 

[Wibble]

Yeah it's hard to to some gardening if you don't have a garden but who doesn't have a garden eh?

That's very easy to write but it's hard to do, I'm abiding by the measures under protest but I resent people trying to enforce some sort of blitz spirit. The reason we can't see our friends and families isn't a consequence of a virus, it's a consequence of a government policy. So forgive me if I don't partake in this faux-blitz spirit that has become almost compulsory. Forgive me if I don't stand on my doorstep clapping like a performing seal every Thursday and forgive the people who decide that they aren't putting up with.

The policy is a consequence of the virus. And the UK's lock down has been far too gentle in any case.

 

[Tarrou]

Yeah it's hard to to some gardening if you don't have a garden but who doesn't have a garden eh?

That's very easy to write but it's hard to do, I'm abiding by the measures under protest but I resent people trying to enforce some sort of blitz spirit. The reason we can't see our friends and families isn't a consequence of a virus, it's a consequence of a government policy. So forgive me if I don't partake in this faux-blitz spirit that has become almost compulsory. Forgive me if I don't stand on my doorstep clapping like a performing seal every Thursday and forgive the people who decide that they aren't putting up with.

we don't need to partake in a "blitz-spirit" though and no one really gives a feck if we do or don't

not in my life anyway

 

[JMack1234]

The policy is a consequence of the virus. And the UK's lock down has been far too gentle in any case.

Yeah that doesn't dismiss my point.

We all know why the policy happened but it's nevertheless a policy, There's no getting away from that.

 

[2mufc0]

Yeah it's hard to to some gardening if you don't have a garden but who doesn't have a garden eh?

That's very easy to write but it's hard to do, I'm abiding by the measures under protest but I resent people trying to enforce some sort of blitz spirit. The reason we can't see our friends and families isn't a consequence of a virus, it's a consequence of a government policy. So forgive me if I don't partake in this faux-blitz spirit that has become almost compulsory. Forgive me if I don't stand on my doorstep clapping like a performing seal every Thursday and forgive the people who decide that they aren't putting up with.

If you don't have a garden that's one less thing you can do out of the many others.

I don't even know what this faux blitz spirit is.
You have already acknowledged the lock down is necessary, so we have to work with it. You'll be fine mate it's not a big deal, just keep busy and when it all passes it will be a very small inconvenienced period within the span of your lifetime.

 

[bri2013]

Yeah that doesn't dismiss my point.

We all know why the policy happened but it's nevertheless a policy, There's no getting away from that.

Government policy is sadly a consequence of voting said government into office.

As a side note, my father in law passed away late January. His funeral was at the end of January. His children came over from New Zealand for the funeral and around February 6th, One of his kids was telling us that New Zealand was locking down and they might have to go into quarantine upon their return.

 

[Suedesi]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[klayton88]

I uploaded a documentary to my google drive for anybody interested, about the outbreak on a cruiseship. "A cruise ship carrying COVID-19 patients returned to Japan in early February. NHK's in-depth report on the coronavirus' spread inside the ship offers clues for managing the outbreak on land" Really interesting watch.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FWUTSbpgxkFr47IjHZ5eo8sIi6_wyToX

 

[Wibble]

Yeah that doesn't dismiss my point.

We all know why the policy happened but it's nevertheless a policy, There's no getting away from that.

I've no idea what point you are making. The policy is needed due to the virus so the restrictions are due to the virus.

 

[sammsky1]

Quick recap on Boris and covid19:
(Copied from Facebook)

December 31st China alerts WHO to new virus.

January 23rd Study reveals a third of China’s patients require intensive care.

January 24th Boris Johnson misses first Cobra meeting.

January 29th Boris Johnson misses second Cobra meeting.

January 31st The NHS declares first ever ‘Level 4 critical incident’ Meanwhile, the government declines to join European scheme to source PPE.

February 5th Boris Johnson misses third Cobra meeting.

February 12th Boris Johnson misses fourth Cobra meeting. Exeter University published study warning Coronavirus could infect 45 million people in the UK if left unchallenged.

February 13th Boris Johnson misses conference call with European leaders.

February 14th Boris Johnson goes away on holiday. Aides are told keeps Johnson’s briefing notes short or he will not read them.

February 18th Johnson misses fifth cobra meeting.

February 26th Boris Johnson announces ‘Herd Immunity’ strategy, announcing some people will lose loved ones. Government document is leaked, predicting half a million Brits could die in ‘worse case scenario’

February 29th Boris Johnson retreats to his country manor. NHS warns of ‘PPE shortage nightmare’ Stockpiles have dwindled or expired after years of austerity cuts.

March 2nd Boris Johnson attends his first Cobra meeting, declining another opportunity to join European PPE scheme. Government’s own scientists say over half a million Brit’s could die if virus left unrestrained. Johnson tells country “We are very, very well prepared.”

March 3rd Scientists urge Government to advise public not to shake hands. Boris Johnson brags about shaking hands of Coronavirus patients.

March 4th Government stops providing daily updates on virus following a 70% spike in UK cases. They will later U-turn on this amid accusations they are withholding vital information.

March 5th Boris Johnson tells public to ‘wash their hands and business as usual’

March 7th Boris Johnson joins 82,000 people at Six Nations match.

March 9th After Ireland cancels St Patrick’s day parades, the government says there’s “No Rationale” for cancelling sporting events.

March 10th - 13th Cheltenham takes place, more than a quarter of a million people attend.

March 11th 3,000 Atletico Madrid fans fly to Liverpool.

March 12th Boris Johnson states banning events such as Cheltenham will have little effect. The Imperial College study finds the government’s plan is projected to kill half a million people.

March 13th The FA suspends the Premier League, citing an absence of Government guidance. Britain is invited to join European scheme for joint purchase of ventilators, and refuses. Boris Johnson lifts restrictions of those arriving from Coronavirus hot spots.

March 14th Government is still allowing mass gatherings, as Stereophonics play to 5,000 people in Cardiff.

March 16th Boris Johnson asks Britons not to go to pubs, but allows them to stay open. During a conference call, Johnson jokes that push to build new ventilators should be called ‘Operation Last Gasp’

March 19th Hospital patients with Coronavirus are returned to care homes in a bid to free up hospital space. What follows is a boom of virus cases in care homes.

March 20th The Government states that PPE shortage crisis is “Completely resolved” Less than two weeks later, the British Medical Association reports an acute shortage in PPE.

March 23rd UK goes into lockdown.

March 26th Boris Johnson is accused of putting ‘Brexit over Breathing’ by not joining EU ventilator scheme. The government then state they had not joined the scheme because they had ‘missed the email’

April 1st The Evening Standard publishes that just 0.17% of NHS staff have been tested for the virus.

April 3rd The UK death toll overtakes China.

April 5th 17.5 million Antibody tests, ordered by the government and described by Boris Johnson as a ‘game changer’ are found to be a failure.

April 7th Boris Johnson is moved to intensive care with Coronavirus.

April 16th Flights bring 15,000 people a day into the UK - without virus testing.

April 17th Health Secretary Matt Hancock says “I would love to be able to wave a magic wand and have PPE fall from the sky.” The UK has now missed four opportunities to join the EU’s PPE scheme.

April 21st The Government fails to reach its target of face masks for the NHS, as it is revealed manufactures offers of help were met with silence. Instead millions of pieces of PPE are being shipped from the UK to Europe.

April 23rd - 24th Government announces testing kits for 10 million key workers. Orders run out within minutes as only 5,000 are made available.

April 25th UK death toll from Coronavirus overtakes that of The Blitz.

April 30th Boris Johnson announces the UK has succeeded in avoiding a tragedy that had engulfed other parts of the world - At this point, The UK has the 3rd highest death toll in the world.

May 1st The Government announces it has reached its target of 100,000 tests - They haven’t conducted the tests, but posted the testing kits.

May 4th The number of NHS staff that have died from Coronavirus overtakes the number of British Military personnel that died during the Iraq War.

May 5th The UK death toll becomes the highest in Europe.

May 6th Boris Johnson announces the UK could start to lift lockdown restrictions by next week.

 

[Volumiza]

Separating innocent family, friends, lovers etc for 6 weeks is pretty barbaric.

Because it is. Separating Human beings from their lovers, friends and family is barbaric.

It's a punishment we reserve for people whose transgression is so serious they need to be sent to prison.

I'm not saying it hasn't be necessary, but I won't clamber onto my high horse and judge anyone who fails at social distancing.

I’m sat comfortably on my massive high horse wearing my best suit of moral armour judging everyone who disregards the lockdown. They are making judgements that have a potentially fatal impact on others. Feck them.

But I believe that we've being asked to make an extraordinary sacrifice and I understand how and why people fall short.

No; we’ve been asked (albeit in a muddled way) to do something that will help save lives. 6 - 10 weeks i don’t believe that is a massive sacrifice by any standards.

I personally believe forced separation is barbaric, you may not. We have different opinions.

Taken in the context of the current situation, this forced separation as you call it is saving lives. It isn’t barbaric, it’s necessary.

 

[Penna]

Last night's speech was a bit shambolic. Unfortunately, Boris isn't a PM for times when detail is essential, it's not his thing. I'm signed up to a Regional news alert service via our Town Hall, and the Italian love of bureaucratic detail has been exactly what's needed. Last week I received (amongst others) detailed briefings on such diverse things as rules for people who want to go fishing and use kayaks and rules around adoption of pets from shelters and dog-grooming.

Every little detail is being picked apart. It's mad in a way, but in another way it's exactly what people need to stop the uncertainty.

 

[FireballXL5]

I never said it wasn't necessary.... but if someone hugs their Mum I won't climb on my high horse and indulge in the po-faced indignation that others do.



Yeah, none of which come anywhere near compensating for personal interaction.



All of those of are useful but are sorry replacements for human to human interaction.

So how would you feel if in a fortnight your mum is in hospital fighting for her life?

 

[Volumiza]

That's what I'm arguing about.

It is not a 'very small price' it's a massive price that we're all paying. Especially the young, who've been absolutely stuffed by the policy the government has followed.

There we go ...

I could feel that bubbling away under there throughout your previous posts.

 

[Volumiza]

Stay at home read some books, work on your own personal development, work out, do house work, do some gardening, watch some films, play some video games, write/speak to friends family etc.. It really isn't a tough ask to stay put for a bit.

This ... sounds pretty easy, some good and manageable suggestions eh? ...

That's very easy to write but it's hard to do, I'm abiding by the measures under protest but I resent people trying to enforce some sort of blitz spirit. The reason we can't see our friends and families isn't a consequence of a virus, it's a consequence of a government policy. So forgive me if I don't partake in this faux-blitz spirit that has become almost compulsory. Forgive me if I don't stand on my doorstep clapping like a performing seal every Thursday and forgive the people who decide that they aren't putting up with.

... oh.

 

[SilentWitness]

That's what I'm arguing about.

It is not a 'very small price' it's a massive price that we're all paying. Especially the young, who've been absolutely stuffed by the policy the government has followed.

I am a young person and yes, it fecking sucks but I value human lives far more than my own personal desires, nor needs. I miss my partner a lot and haven’t seen her since February but I realise that if everyone committed to a lockdown restrictions could be eased and I could see her. I have lost job opportunities and interviews but I realise if everyone committed they would arise again. I should be entering a great part of my life career wise (my late 20s) and have just spent a lot of money completing a Masters but now this situation has probably changed my career outlook monumentally but I realise that human life is worth more than that. I haven’t seen most of my friends since January but I realise human life is worth more. I’m probably not going to get to see as much of the world as I would before, I probably won’t be able to do many of the things I dreamt of before and I’ll probably have to be paying a lot back in the future so I won’t have as much for myself and my partner or children if I chose to have them (yes, there will be many who won’t want children or can’t justify it anymore because of the situation potentially in the future). All of that fecking sucks.

But you know what? I still have those opportunities. I’m still here right now and I can still make something of my life. There are plenty who won’t be able to because they’ve died. Lockdown is shit, people might lose their job or have a different life to what they may have had before. They still have their life.

EDIT: I would also like to add I have suffered with mental health issues since the age of 16, anxiety and depression that have each led me to try to take my own life in the past. I've hit rough patches and still do. I have during this lockdown also but people with mental health problems can still have perspective. It's very individual. For those that are struggling there should be a system in place to help them through the lockdown. not the excuse of "Yeah but people have mental illnesses so we should come out of lockdown for their sake". Same with people who live in poverty or crammed households. We should be making better decisions at a local level to ensure they get the space and help they need.

 

[Pexbo]

I am a young person and yes, it fecking sucks but I value human lives far more than my own personal desires, nor needs. I miss my partner a lot and haven’t seen her since February but I realise that if everyone committed to a lockdown restrictions could be eased and I could see her. I have lost job opportunities and interviews but I realise if everyone committed they would arise again. I should be entering a great part of my life career wise (my late 20s) and have just spent a lot of money completing a Masters but now this situation has probably changed my career outlook monumentally but I realise that human life is worth more than that. I haven’t seen most of my friends since January but I realise human life is worth more. I’m probably not going to get to see as much of the world as I would before, I probably won’t be able to do many of the things I dreamt of before and I’ll probably have to be paying a lot back in the future so I won’t have as much for myself and my partner or children if I chose to have them (yes, there will be many who won’t want children or can’t justify it anymore because of the situation potentially in the future). All of that fecking sucks.

But you know what? I still have those opportunities. I’m still here right now and I can still make something of my life. There are plenty who won’t be able to because they’ve died. Lockdown is shit, people might lose their job or have a different life to what they may have had before. They still have their life.

Excellent post and I can echo most of it.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I am a young person and yes, it fecking sucks but I value human lives far more than my own personal desires, nor needs. I miss my partner a lot and haven’t seen her since February but I realise that if everyone committed to a lockdown restrictions could be eased and I could see her. I have lost job opportunities and interviews but I realise if everyone committed they would arise again. I should be entering a great part of my life career wise (my late 20s) and have just spent a lot of money completing a Masters but now this situation has probably changed my career outlook monumentally but I realise that human life is worth more than that. I haven’t seen most of my friends since January but I realise human life is worth more. I’m probably not going to get to see as much of the world as I would before, I probably won’t be able to do many of the things I dreamt of before and I’ll probably have to be paying a lot back in the future so I won’t have as much for myself and my partner or children if I chose to have them (yes, there will be many who won’t want children or can’t justify it anymore because of the situation potentially in the future). All of that fecking sucks.

But you know what? I still have those opportunities. I’m still here right now and I can still make something of my life. There are plenty who won’t be able to because they’ve died. Lockdown is shit, people might lose their job or have a different life to what they may have had before. They still have their life.

Completely echo this post, exactly how I feel, haven’t seen anyone really since February but it is what it is.

 

[Volumiza]

But you know what? I still have those opportunities. I’m still here right now and I can still make something of my life. There are plenty who won’t be able to because they’ve died. Lockdown is shit, people might lose their job or have a different life to what they may have had before. They still have their life.

Good post. All is not lost. Stay strong.

We’ve got 3 kids, two boys of 15 and a daughter who is 12. I still have very high hopes for their futures. So should they have. So should all young people.

Edit: I have two very close childhood friends and their Mum and Step Dad (mid 60’s) were hospitalised with Covid-19 a few weeks back. I saw the step Dad over the weekend, 3 weeks after coming out of hospital. He still looked absolutely knackered, it has aged him massively.

It’s no joke this virus, after speaking to him that is very clear, he was telling me of how ill they both were, the panic at being rushed to hospital and the rate the hospital beds around him were emptying and filling up and he and his wife’s fear of not making it through. It was a startling story coming from someone I’ve known my whole life.

Any extraordinary measures we are putting in place are worth it, for all generations.

 

[United Hobbit]

Imagine most office workers won't be able to just turn up tomorrow. Most offices are overseen by a managing company and they will have a policy in regards to open hours/office times during lockdown.

Think Boris should probably have mentioned somewhere that most people who work in front of a screen in an office should not meet the necessary requirements of physically going into work. I do worry how some cnuty bosses will interpret this.

Agree I'm worried about this, especially as there isn't a union and even during lockdown they've said they're desperate to get people back

 

[Wibble]

Good post. All is not lost. Stay strong.

We’ve got 3 kids, two boys of 15 and a daughter who is 12. I still have very high hopes for their futures. So should they have. So should all young people.

My son is 21 and studying in California (which is obliviously a worry) but I have huge optimism for his future.

I when I think of the difficult circumstances some people overcome I have little sympathy for people who are just annoyed they can't go out as much as usual to the point of not caring if others die to avoid inconvenience.

 

[arnie_ni]

So according to twitter raab said this morning no mixing households even if obeying social distancing, while the MP on gmb with piers said youve been able to do it all along....

 

[Fluctuation0161]

- Regional management
- 2 weeks notice of potential changes
- 1 week notice of actual change
- Scaled dial back of furlough
- 3 day working week initially, 2 weeks max, scaling up to 5 days
- Directives to ensure non-furloughed staff working from home stay home for another 3-6 months
- Specific orders for at risk groups
- Communicated plans for care homes
- Transparent PPE figures for front line workers
- Top down messaging to ensure flexible working practices
- Industries and businesses identified and put into defined ‘buckets’ of risk
- Time commitments

Just as a quick and easy starter.

That makes too much sense. I suppose next you'll be asking for details on what science exactly the government is following.