I don't doubt all that. I do honestly think the Gulf States are demonised too much by a lot of Westerners. And compared with the chaos in places like India, I'd imagine a lot of immigrants in the Gulf probably are a lot safer than they'd be at home. Its just a nagging suspicion of mine, that push come to shove, if cases start piling up and hospitals start getting crowded, the Gulf states will ensure their own citizens are given priority over all others. Also that the state bailouts and handouts, if the need arises will mostly focus on keeping their citizens happy and afloat at the expense of the others.
SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)
- Thread starter Don't Kill Bill
- Start date
I don't doubt all that. I do honestly think the Gulf States are demonised too much by a lot of Westerners. And compared with the chaos in places like India, I'd imagine a lot of immigrants in the Gulf probably are a lot safer than they'd be at home. Its just a nagging suspicion of mine, that push come to shove, if cases start piling up and hospitals start getting crowded, the Gulf states will ensure their own citizens are given priority over all others. Also that the state bailouts and handouts, if the need arises will mostly focus on keeping their citizens happy and afloat at the expense of the others.
A good read on this subject, is "Why Nations Fail". Its not really genetic obviously or even cultural factors. Its got a lot to do with critical junctures in history and how each society has responded to it and changed. Chance basically. And pandemics are one of the major events that can kickstart such changes. For instance the black plague ended the feudal system in a lot of Western Europe but strengthened it in certain other places.
Sure. Absolutely. I'm just prodding someone.
Maybe. But wouldn’t every country do that if it gets to that point?
Well no. You would never get away with that in the UK at least. I can't speak about the other Western countries but let me assure you the UK would never enact a policy of having the NHS prioritising citizens over anybody else. And although unemployment benefits and the like are doled out to citizens/permanent residents the UK government would never enact bailouts or handouts to favour citizens over anybody else that has legitimate businesses in the UK. Whereas a lot of Gulf states rely on patronage and handouts to locals as an accepted form of business.
Isn't it just that we're all worried about what's happening in care homes and similar units? Just people trying to understand what's happening globally, what measures are working in some countries, and what's proving impossible to manage anywhere.
You could ask why any of us are in the thread and looking at statistics when we aren't epidemiologists.
What?
Cause of the uncontrollable riots that will spill from France over the channel to the UK. Just as you predicted.
The question is why if it's an important factor did it not correlate at all with the first phase of the virus? It just seems like convenient analysis that only fits a very particular point in time. The likes of Chile, South Africa and Saudi Arabia only reported their first case at the beginning of this month and already their case numbers look significantly worse than the early stages of these Western countries. Is it that implausible that cases will explode somewhere in Africa, and your cultural explanation no longer fits the data whatsoever?
Sure, I left out a couple of words for clarity. You haven't said that your culture is better in all circumstances, but you have said your culture is better at dealing with this outbreak. In the same way that people here earlier in the journey blamed China's culture for allowing the pandemic to take hold. In the same way that folks have bemoaned old people's selfishness in disobeying the rules, and young people's ignorance in dismissing the risks. It's not that they're worse overall, but they're worse at this whole coronavirus thing.
France is not being deceitful. It’s being fully transparent.
A difference in methodology is not nefarious by nature.
Oh I highly doubt we would favour/prioritise when it comes to medical care or hospital beds. That would be evil.
I do think it might be possible as you say in terms of business interventions. Let’s hope it never gets to that.
They usually die some years earlier and societies already save a lot in pensions...
What? Why do you care about me laughing? What does it matter to you?
If I could have been arsed genuinely responding to the silly question @UnrelatedPsuedo asked I'd have said this.
It seems the elderly are just being left in many countries and it's quite worrying.
Yes, definitely lets hope it doesn't come to that. I have a lot of good memories of the UAE, and I think if more people look at its history and how far its come they would be less judgemental. I am hopeful with the kind of administrative control the UAE have, it should hopefully not be as bad a situation as we are seeing elsewhere. Certainly economically it will be very bad for the next year or so especially with the Expo 2020 coming up as well, but I hope they can prioritise the health aspect of it.
For me I've spent some time in Saudi as well, and I've got nothing positive to say about that country. They've never handled this kind of thing well, see the Haj incidents etc., I don't have a lot of hope of them keeping on top of this unfortunately
Smokers probably cost society more in health care than they would in pensions. Also it's not like all smokers are only affected by it after they retire (and stop being productive).
What's deceit got to do with it? What are the figures for deaths in care homes and similar residential settings in France? What about home deaths? If there are no figures is that because it's routine to take everyone with Covid symptoms to hospital - including those who are in hospices or have DNR or "doesn't want to leave home" preferences on file?
The UK hasn't been releasing care home and non-hospital stats, and they say once they start doing so (in the next couple of days) the stats will always be a bit delayed (due to local coroners needing to collate the death certificates). Is the system similar in France?
valuing Individual liberty and "feck other people" are obviously not synonymous. If you think they are then there certainly isn't anything more to say to each other.
I'd be very surprised if smokers in the UK weren't a net positive contributor in the UK. Someone'll have done the sums. I'll have a look.
Well you’re a delight aren’t you.
When you have symptoms of Covid19 and are in the high risks population you are indeed brought to the regional hospital dedicated to Covid19 patients and tested, so in reality they are partially counted. The issue is that some people definitely slipped through the cracks and died in care home potentially from Covid19 or even at home, overall the mortality increased by 6%(all causes included) since the start of the epidemy compared to last year. The figures regarding people that died in care homes is supposed to be published this week and the platform to make that possible(I don't know what that means) was finished this past weekend.
People are trying to suggest that France should use an identical set of procedures and data set as everyone else.
If everyone used the exact same method of data collection, same test, reported in the same way... that would be great.
But that’s simply never going to happen. No single country is using exactly the same procedures as everyone else.
Anyone criticising France reporting Care Home deaths, or at home deaths, in a slightly different way, is small minded and needs to back away from the keyboard and internet for a day.
They’re handling their situation in the best way that they can. I’m kind of sick of people jumping on a soapbox to criticise things just for the sake of it. It’s exhausting to wade through so much shite.
I believe that's true. The tax on cigs is enormous. I think they're about £10 a pack now, 50p for each cigarette.
Agreed, the smaller countries like Kuwait and UAE I’m not worried about. With regards to KSA, there are allegations their numbers are under-reported.
At times like these when you continue to exploit your individual liberties to the fullest then yeah, it is synonymous with “feck other people”. That’s why people are being told to stay at home.
Could say the same about yourself!
Daily Briefing
Those who are majorly affected earlier are major outliers.
Also, tax on cigarettes is huge so no, they do not cost more.
It probably is to be honest. The tax on cigarettes is quite insane!
It sounds like France and the UK are in a similar position.
Ok, first of all, there are massive cultural differences between Western Countries, even those in relatively close geographical proximity like the EU. Secondly, I would define collective wellfare of a society aka its people as a whole with the (albeit unrealistic) goal to care for each of its citizen as best as it can.
If I compare the general culture of the US with the one of Nordic and Central European countries like for example Germany the differences are in parts massive. This starts with Universal Healthcare, free education, far stricter labour laws (some of the strictest worldwide), a still imperfect but far stronger social safety net in cases of illness. debt, loss of home or unemployment and the list goes on and on. How can the German state afford all of this? Some of the highest employment costs in the world and taxes. Despite being an ecomonic powerhouse the average German citizen while enjoying a high standart of living is actually non that wealthy, because a lot of his/her income is used to finance the Social state. Programs like "Kurzarbeit" which protect people working in struggling companies/branches from unemployment in times of crisis are accepted by the vast majority of the population eventhough it costs billions of tax payer money. The entire retirement system is based on solidarity for people they will probably never meet which puts it in stark contrast to mid eastern countries like Turkey where the care of the elderly is put far more in the hands of the families or Asian countries like Japan where a lot of the money for the retirement comes directly from the companies they worked for.
Why is all of this largely accepted by the German public? Because culturally it values things the most in difference to other countries.According to studies the one thing that is valued the most in the US is the freedom or liberty to build your own life like you want to do. In Germany? It is safety. This is to a large part historically originated, especially from the first years post WWII, which were plagued by shortages and poverty. Eventhough many actually did not live in that time, it is still an integral part of the education and upbringing. The thought in the back of your mind that you want to be cared for if you fall in hard times and need help. This need for your own safety breeds solidarity for others, to help them in times of need so you might receive help yourself if needed.
It is by no means a more noble cultural outlook than for example the American way of life because it is ultimately motivated by a individual desire for safety, but it leads to a more society orientated thinking.
So which way is now the Western culture? There is none IMO, it is just a buzz word.
To come back to the actual topic of the thread, the desire for safety is one of the reasons why Germany has been less shaken by the virus than other countries. Besides an obvious luck factor especially the younger average age of infected people in the first wave, the German heath system runs nowhere near maximum capacity in normal times, which leaves a lot of reserves in times of crisis. The very high number of ICU beds for example in relation to other countries is simply the desire to prepare for hard times. It is normally nowhere near cost effecitve but if something really bad happens, it can save lifes-
What's story with Boris and Charlie?
Are they better?
Are they better?
They smoke like trains in China too but their mortality rates were generally a hell of a lot lower than Italy. Apart from Wuhan. What Wuhan and Italy had in common that caused their much higher CFR wasn’t smoking. It was a health service that got completely overwhelmed.
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Given the UAE's fondness for propaganda do you believe your government's figures? Do you know how widely they are testing? Especially in the huge ex-pat population from the Philippines, India and Pakistan?
It wouldn't surprise me if there was far Covid-19 in UAE than reported as your government will control what is published, but other factors such as the weather may partly account for infection levels. Your society is a mixture of things like men holding hands in public but there is also inherent social distancing between unrelated members of the opposite sex.
And your view of your nations adherence to law is also a bit disingenuous in that we all know who you are matters very much indeed when it comes to how laws are applied. You do have the capacity for quick authoritarian lock-down but I'd bet many Emirates are still meeting in large family groups. Hopefully that combination of factors will help slow the spread but I don't think it is as simple and straightforward as you state.
What are the governments of your countries doing regarding the self-employed? Here they will have to continue paying the fee despite the protests.
On the other hand, dismissals have been prohibited, so possibly many small companies will close when this ends.
But, what will happen if for example on May 1 there are still infections and let's say 50 deaths a day.
Who will be the politician who will dare to take the step after this lack of control?
or let's say that we overcome it (Western Europe) but later the virus attacks hard in another part of the world?
On the other hand, dismissals have been prohibited, so possibly many small companies will close when this ends.
But, what will happen if for example on May 1 there are still infections and let's say 50 deaths a day.
Who will be the politician who will dare to take the step after this lack of control?
or let's say that we overcome it (Western Europe) but later the virus attacks hard in another part of the world?