Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

[Carolina Red]

he won't. it's like talking to a brick wall.

Yes, I am quite firm in my disdain for genocidal death cults. Thank you.

 

[Smores]

She’s receiving way more human rights than the people butchered by ISIS received, so I’d say she should consider herself lucky.

You do bad things though, you forfeit some rights. She’s found that out.

No one else here cares what she feels or considers just you. You've seemingly allowed some sense of hatred to lower your own moral compass or perhaps this is just where you are politically/morally irrespective. Either way your line of thinking there is exactly what fuels a lot of terrorism in the first place so erm well done.

 

[Raven]

he won't. it's like talking to a brick wall.

It's extremely embarrassing for the forum that one of the mods is engaging in this kind of hatefulness.

 

[stepic]

Yes, I am quite firm in my disdain for genocidal death cults. Thank you.

yet another utterly irrelevant comment to the discussion at hand. you're on a roll.

 

[Carolina Red]

No one else here cares what she feels or considers just you. You've seemingly allowed some sense of hatred to lower your own moral compass or perhaps this is just where you are politically/morally irrespective. Either way your line of thinking there is exactly what fuels a lot of terrorism in the first place so erm well done.

I dunno, seems a lot of folks care about what she felt and considered when she decided to run away to ISIS and what she feels and considers now. Hence the whole thread about it.

 

[Carolina Red]

yet another utterly irrelevant comment to the discussion at hand. you're on a roll.

Brick wall… firm… come on now. It was your analogy.

 

[Beans]

Yes, I am quite firm in my disdain for genocidal death cults. Thank you.

Christianity too?

 

[stepic]

Brick wall… firm… come on now. It was your analogy.

i was talking about the disdain for genocidal death cult bit. literally no one is defending ISIS here.

 

[hobbers]

Even by your definition of giving 16yr olds the vote, she wouldn't count - she. was. a. fifteen. year. old. child.

Regarding the bold bit, are you suggesting that it's fine for adults to court children online, convince them to travel across the world, and marry them?

She was a 15 year old. Not a child. You wouldn't use this line to excuse a 15 year old if they had murdered someone, or committed a similarly terrible crime. I suspect people only see this as a valid way to excuse her behaviour because they dont recognise what she did as heinous enough.

It's not fine but that's called grooming. Not trafficking. There was no deception. Everything that happened to her when she got there was exactly what she signed up for.

 

[stepic]

She was a 15 year old. Not a child. You wouldn't use this line to excuse a 15 year old if they had murdered someone, or committed a similarly terrible crime. I suspect people only see this as a valid way to excuse her behaviour because they dont recognise what she did as heinous enough.

a 15 year old murderer still deserves the right to a fair trial.

 

[Carolina Red]

Christianity too?

Yeah, I’m not a Christian. I’m fairly convinced that the Abrahamic faiths are based on the ramblings of schizophrenics.

 

[The Corinthian]

I dunno, seems a lot of folks care about what she felt and considered when she decided to run away to ISIS and what she feels and considers now. Hence the whole thread about it.

Literally everyone who's commented in this thread with a viewpoint opposite to yours has mentioned she should be held accountable for her actions. I haven't seen a single post that says otherwise. You can have sympathy for her situation, whilst still upholding justice and her rights.

 

[Carolina Red]

i was talking about the disdain for genocidal death cult bit. literally no one is defending ISIS here.

I didn’t say anybody was. I’m just stating my reason for having no sympathy for an ISIS member finding themselves stuck in a detention center.

 

[Jericholyte2]

She was a 15 year old. Not a child. You wouldn't use this line to excuse a 15 year old if they had murdered someone, or committed a similarly terrible crime. I suspect people only see this as a valid way to excuse her behaviour because they dont recognise what she did as heinous enough.

It's not fine but that's called grooming. Not trafficking. There was no deception. Everything that happened to her when she got there was exactly what she signed up for.

Bold bits:

1. Legally a child in the UK is an u-18, so that's invalid. I'm also not giving her a free pass, but she has diminished capacity as she was a minor. It's why we have juvenile sentencing.
2. She signed up for joining after being courted by adults. That's grooming! She then got help by people trying to infiltrate ISIS to get her to Syria. That's trafficking whether she wanted to or not! People arriving in the UK in small boats are victims of trafficking and they paid to go across. Whether a 'decision' was made voluntarily or not it moot.
3. Signed up to be raped by a 27yr old and have multiple children die...

Sweet Jesus some of the people on here are absolute ghouls!

 

[VorZakone]

The severity of someone's actions seems irrelevant to me regarding citizenship. What was the official reasoning for revoking Shamima's citizenship?

 

[Carolina Red]

Literally everyone who's commented in this thread with a viewpoint opposite to yours has mentioned she should be held accountable for her actions. I haven't seen a single post that says otherwise. You can have sympathy for her situation, whilst still upholding justice and her rights.

That’s fine. I don’t have anything against anyone believing that she should have UK citizenship or a trial in the UK. I just disagree. I think the UK is justified in their decision to remove her right to UK citizenship.

 

[mu4c_20le]

She was a 15 year old. Not a child. You wouldn't use this line to excuse a 15 year old if they had murdered someone, or committed a similarly terrible crime. I suspect people only see this as a valid way to excuse her behaviour because they dont recognise what she did as heinous enough.

It's not fine but that's called grooming. Not trafficking. There was no deception. Everything that happened to her when she got there was exactly what she signed up for.

Yeah that's a child mate.

And there are far worse teenagers than her, who actually tortured raped and killed people, who did not have their citizenship stripped and got to enjoy due process. You cannot use emotion to pass judgment.

 

[Abizzz]

Child grooming is befriending and establishing an emotional connection with a minor...to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse.[3][4] Child grooming is also regularly used to lure minors into various illicit businesses such as child trafficking, child prostitution, cybersex trafficking,[5] or the production of child pornography.

Again, I ask the question, would you say the 15yr old schoolgirl who 'ran away' with her teacher who groomed her, wasn't forced or coerced? And even if they voluntarily went to X or Y, or did X or Y, they are not responsible for that as the decisions were the result of said grooming.

Well who was she groomed by then? She said she went there to look for a husband. Doesn't sound like grooming to me. She was influenced yes. Every criminal is/was.


Actualy in my view it's disgusting to use actual victims of grooming in defense of this terrorist.

 

[hobbers]

That's trafficking whether she wanted to or not! People arriving in the UK in small boats are victims of trafficking and they paid to go across. Whether a 'decision' was made voluntarily or not it moot.
3. Signed up to be raped by a 27yr old and have multiple children die...

Sweet Jesus some of the people on here are absolute ghouls!

You really need to educate yourself on what trafficking actually is. People smuggling is not trafficking unless the migrants are exploited after the journey. It's not complicated.

And yes, she signed up to be married and have children with a soldier of ISIS as soon as possible. That the children died might be sad but is irrelevant to whatever point you're trying to make.

Definitely some belligerent ghouls about.

a 15 year old murderer still deserves the right to a fair trial.

I agree. Not arguing about the legalities of stripping her citizenship. From a purely legal point of view that should not have happened.

But anyone trying to say she wasn't morally culpable or responsible for what she did "because she was just a child" is having a laugh.

 

[NotThatSoph]

The severity of someone's actions seems irrelevant to me regarding citizenship. What was the official reasoning for revoking Shamima's citizenship?

The argument is that she supposedly has a right to Bangladeshi citizenship, so revoking her UK citizenship isn't making her stateless because she in essence or potentially has dual. She doesn't have Bangladeshi citizenship, so they did make her stateless, and she can't get Bangladeshi citizenship so she will remain stateless.

 

[Moby]

You don’t have to be sympathetic to believe that everyone should have access to basic fundamental human rights.

Not when you decided to join a terrorist organisation.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Well who was she groomed by then? She said she went there to look for a husband. Doesn't sound like grooming to me.


Actualy in my view it's disgusting to use actual victims of grooming in defense of this terrorist.

She was groomed online by members of ISIS from what I've read. They made her believe that there was a life for her with a husband (again a reminder, she was 15 at the time). They made promises of a life which lead her to try to go and join them and part of that process was radicalising her.

How is her 'voluntarily' going to Syria any different from another child groomed by a gang based in, say, Birmingham, travelling 'of their own free will' to end up in a slave-trade situation?

 

[The Corinthian]

Not when you decided to join a terrorist organisation.

What a stupid take.

 

[Jericholyte2]

You really need to educate yourself on what trafficking actually is. People smuggling is not trafficking unless the migrants are exploited after the journey. It's not complicated.

And yes, she signed up to be married and have children with a soldier of ISIS as soon as possible. That the children died might be sad but is irrelevant to whatever point you're trying to make.

Definitely some belligerent ghouls about.

She 'signed up' to that as a 15yr old when she was not legally able to make that decision, it really doesn't get more simple than that.

 

[The Corinthian]

I didn’t say anybody was. I’m just stating my reason for having no sympathy for an ISIS member finding themselves stuck in a detention center.

She’s not in a detention centre. She’s in a refugee camp in squalid conditions. I think it’s one of the reasons she lost her 3rd child. It seems because of her association with ISIS, you don’t believe she has any rights. But the issue is there have been other people in history and present times who have had association with terror groups and they, as a minimum, were given a trial.

 

[Abizzz]

She was groomed online by members of ISIS from what I've read. They made her believe that there was a life for her with a husband (again a reminder, she was 15 at the time). They made promises of a life which lead her to try to go and join them and part of that process was radicalising her.

How is her 'voluntarily' going to Syria any different from another child groomed by a gang based in, say, Birmingham, travelling 'of their own free will' to end up in a slave-trade situation?

She fell for the propaganda, she wasn't lured in by someone who intoxicated her for his sexual pleasure. If we assume that women have the same mental capablilities as men I don't see any difference between her and a 15 year old guy that fell for the propaganda and went there.

Maybe our definition's of grooming differ. Maybe she was groomed in the way Donald Jr. was groomed to follow in Donalds footsteps. She wasn't groomed in the way sexual perpetrators groom their victims. At least i've seen nothing that convinces that she was, and haven't seen her claim anything of the like either. And honestly I find it indefensible to use victims of sexual violence as a defense for the actions of somebody of whom we must assume commited exactly that. Because that's what ISIS wife's did by all acounts that I have read so far.

(Oh and by the way probably 99% of young muslims in Europe were exposed to their propaganda at some point in the past decade. Acting like she had no agency in this is also disrespectful to the 99.99% of young muslims that knew better than to join this. Many a lot younger than 15 too).

 

[2cents]

She was groomed online by members of ISIS from what I've read. They made her believe that there was a life for her with a husband (again a reminder, she was 15 at the time). They made promises of a life which lead her to try to go and join them and part of that process was radicalising her.

Again you’ve provided no evidence for this. This is from an interview she gave just after she emerged:

​

“Can you describe what it has been like to live with and under the Islamic State? ​

​

At first it was nice, it was like how they showed it in the videos, like 'come, make a family together'.​

​

Then afterwards, things got harder, you know. When we lost Raqqa we had to keep moving and moving and moving. The situation got difficult.​

​

​

Was there a point when you started to have second thoughts about your life under Islamic State? ​

​

Only at the end, after my son died. I realised I had to get out for the sake of my children - for the sake of my daughter and my baby. Yeah.​

​

Only at the end?​

​

Yeah.​

​

You didn't have any regrets up until that point?​

​

No.​

​

What was it about Islamic State that attracted you? What did you like about it?​

​

The way they showed that you can go [to Syria] and they'll take care of you.​

​

You can have your own family, do anything. You're living under Islamic law.​

​

​

Did you know what Islamic State were doing when you left for Syria? Because they had beheaded people. There were executions. ​

​

Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.​

​

From what I heard, Islamically that is all allowed. So I was okay with it.​

​

You didn't question that? ​

​

No, not at all…​

​

…May I ask, what was it that attracted you? Was it from watching videos, was there somebody who recruited you? What was it that prompted a 15-year-old girl to go to Syria? ​

​

During the time I left, al-Dawla (Islamic State) was on the news and stuff, and like a lot of videos were coming out and I saw all the videos on the internet and that just kind of attracted me to them.​

​

Like it attracted a lot of people.”​

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/is-b...nscript-i-did-have-a-good-time-there-11640278​

 

[mu4c_20le]

She 'signed up' to that as a 15yr old when she was not legally able to make that decision, it really doesn't get more simple than that.

If you're old enough to marry, you're no child.

hobbers

 

[Raven]

You really need to educate yourself on what trafficking actually is. People smuggling is not trafficking unless the migrants are exploited after the journey. It's not complicated.

And yes, she signed up to be married and have children with a soldier of ISIS as soon as possible. That the children died might be sad but is irrelevant to whatever point you're trying to make.

Definitely some belligerent ghouls about.




I agree. Not arguing about the legalities of stripping her citizenship. From a purely legal point of view that should not have happened.

But anyone trying to say she wasn't morally culpable or responsible for what she did "because she was just a child" is having a laugh.

Who on earth are you arguing with? I don't think I've seen a single person in here say she's not morally culpable or responsible. Diminished responsibility is the correct term because she was pretty blatantly groomed.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Not when you decided to join a terrorist organisation.

Then you don't believe it is a human right. You can't believe that she specifically doesn't have that human right, because human rights are by definition unconditional, so you believe that no one has a human right to not be made stateless.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

Bold bits:

1. Legally a child in the UK is an u-18, so that's invalid. I'm also not giving her a free pass, but she has diminished capacity as she was a minor. It's why we have juvenile sentencing.
2. She signed up for joining after being courted by adults. That's grooming! She then got help by people trying to infiltrate ISIS to get her to Syria. That's trafficking whether she wanted to or not! People arriving in the UK in small boats are victims of trafficking and they paid to go across. Whether a 'decision' was made voluntarily or not it moot.
3. Signed up to be raped by a 27yr old and have multiple children die...

Sweet Jesus some of the people on here are absolute ghouls!

You keep repeating misstruths.

Where is the evidence she was groomed? There isn't any. The person she married she had no contact with prior to going to Syria. She asked for people in Syria to find her a husband.

You keep saying she was raped. You're obviously insinuating statutary rape. But in Syria the age of consent is 15, so this doesn't apply to the law of the land. Even as an adult she continued this relationship.

Even about your claim about her not being an adult. Her citizenship was taken away when she was 19. Not when she was 15, 16, 17 or even 18. She was still a loyal ISIL soldier as she rose to adulthood.

How about you read about some of the war crimes she commited. Stitching suicidevests so they couldn't be removed and forcing people to wear them. Takingpart in a secret morality police and sadistically torturing people. I think you need to have a word with yourself when this is your cause of the day mate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...a-morality-police-suicide-belts-a8869016.html

 

[Moby]

What a stupid take.

Sure.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Again you’ve provided no evidence for this. This is from an interview she gave just after she emerged:

​

“Can you describe what it has been like to live with and under the Islamic State? ​

​

At first it was nice, it was like how they showed it in the videos, like 'come, make a family together'.​

​

Then afterwards, things got harder, you know. When we lost Raqqa we had to keep moving and moving and moving. The situation got difficult.​

​

​

Was there a point when you started to have second thoughts about your life under Islamic State? ​

​

Only at the end, after my son died. I realised I had to get out for the sake of my children - for the sake of my daughter and my baby. Yeah.​

​

Only at the end?​

​

Yeah.​

​

You didn't have any regrets up until that point?​

​

No.​

​

What was it about Islamic State that attracted you? What did you like about it?​

​

The way they showed that you can go [to Syria] and they'll take care of you.​

​

You can have your own family, do anything. You're living under Islamic law.​

​

​

Did you know what Islamic State were doing when you left for Syria? Because they had beheaded people. There were executions. ​

​

Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.​

​

From what I heard, Islamically that is all allowed. So I was okay with it.​

​

You didn't question that? ​

​

No, not at all…​

​

…May I ask, what was it that attracted you? Was it from watching videos, was there somebody who recruited you? What was it that prompted a 15-year-old girl to go to Syria? ​

​

During the time I left, al-Dawla (Islamic State) was on the news and stuff, and like a lot of videos were coming out and I saw all the videos on the internet and that just kind of attracted me to them.​

​

Like it attracted a lot of people.”​

​

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/is-b...nscript-i-did-have-a-good-time-there-11640278​

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

"Begum claimed during the interview that she was groomed by friends and older men online, maybe for months. She said, “(I was) groomed for weeks and weeks and maybe even months and months. It wasn’t just a decision I made very quickly, it was a decision I thought about for a while”. She added that she did not hate Britain but her life. She said, “I didn’t hate Britain, I hated my life really. I felt very constricted, and I felt I couldn’t live the life that I wanted in the UK as a British woman.”

Begum said she was scared of living in the camp. She said, “For a long time, it wasn’t violent, but for some reason, it’s become scarier to live here. Maybe the women have got tired of waiting for something.” She told the Sky reporter that her ‘high profile’ might put a target on her back as the other inmates would want to hurt her to make a name for themselves."



When asking if someone has been groomed, it's usually the victim's opinion that's the most important.

 

[Moby]

Then you don't believe it is a human right. You can't believe that she specifically doesn't have that human right, because human rights are by definition unconditional, so you believe that no one has a human right to not be made stateless.

I don't really subscribe to that. There are certain acts wherein human rights aren't a right anymore. This is one of them.

 

[altodevil]

When asking if someone has been groomed, it's usually the victim's opinion that's the most important.

Definitely not

 

[Carolina Red]

She’s not in a detention centre. She’s in a refugee camp in squalid conditions. I think it’s one of the reasons she lost her 3rd child. It seems because of her association with ISIS, you don’t believe she has any rights. But the issue is there have been other people in history and present times who have had association with terror groups and they, as a minimum, were given a trial.

Has she been moved since 2021, because all the reports I’ve seen from when the UK Supreme Court made their decision say basically this…

“This leaves Begum stuck in a detention camp in northeast Syria”
https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/03/02/uk-supreme-court-has-failed-shamima-begum

 

[Abizzz]

Then you don't believe it is a human right. You can't believe that she specifically doesn't have that human right, because human rights are by definition unconditional, so you believe that no one has a human right to not be made stateless.

She wasn't stateless until the terror state she chose to spend her life in collapsed.

 

[Jericholyte2]

You keep repeating misstruths.

Where is the evidence she was groomed? There isn't any. The person she married she had no contact with prior to going to Syria. She asked for people in Syria to find her a husband.

You keep saying she was raped. You're obviously insinuating statutary rape. But in Syria the age of consent is 15, so this doesn't apply to the law of the land. Even as an adult she continued this relationship.

Even about your claim about her not being an adult. Her citizenship was taken away when she was 19. Not when she was 15, 16, 17 or even 18. She was still a loyal ISIL soldier as she rose to adulthood.

How about you read about some of the war crimes she commited. Stitching suicidevests so they couldn't be removed and forcing people to wear them. Takingpart in a secret morality police and sadistically torturing people. I think you need to have a word with yourself when this is your cause of the day mate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...a-morality-police-suicide-belts-a8869016.html

I'm basing my opinions on the legal frameworks of the country that revoked her citizenship.

1. Again! She made the decision at 15 when she wasn't legally able to make that decision. Those people who 'found her a husband' were the groomers as they offered her a life with a husband when she was a child!

2. As above, applying UK law as they're the ones who revoked her citizenship.

3. Now that's just ignorant! She was 19 but it was her actions whilst a minor that lead to her losing her citizenship. You surely can't the that obtuse that you think that's a valid argument? How about we hold all u-18 criminals until they're 18 and then we can try them as adults FFS!


Finally, it doesn't matter what she did, she had reduced capacity / diminished responsibility as she moved as a minor.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Definitely not

Let's move this to other topics then; robbery, assault, sexual assault, rape, racism - the most important viewpoint is the victims (apart from the obvious legal framework).

 

[2cents]

When asking if someone has been groomed, it's usually the victim's opinion that's the most important.

I agree. However in this case she has changed her story after taking legal advice and coming to understand the consequences of her decisions. Again, until she presents some real evidence I don’t see a reason to simply accept this line without question.