Yep the England Euros run was all just one big conspiracy orchestrated by scheming Southgate, yes sir.
Southgate set Rashford and Sancho up for a fall.
- Thread starter IrishRedDevil
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Rashford is pretty experienced at the highest level for a player of his age. However, he (and Sancho) have been on the fringes this tournament. I'd thought you'd want to give the penalty to players you've trusted and hence are full of confidence as a result, not to mention have been a real part of the team. Chucking Rahsford and Sancho on to take penalties when they've barely featured seems a bit strange. And in Saka and Sancho's case they really have no experience with England.
For me the logical thing would be to get a few experienced chaps to have been readied for the penalties. Or at least those who've been playing.
For me the logical thing would be to get a few experienced chaps to have been readied for the penalties. Or at least those who've been playing.
Nobody's saying that, how about you read people's posts instead of living up to your name.
Roy Keane as usual nailed it - what on earth was happening with putting a young lad who wasn't in the starting line-up and has no experience in taking penalties, being thrown in at the deep end?
Why the hell wasn't it decided well before any Euro last stage games that there would be designated penalty takers in order and these penalty takers would be the most experienced players and especially ones who have proved themselves in pressure cooker situations?
England will NEVER win a tournament again with such tactical ineptitude. This team is a fantastic one, full of heart and passion and skill and unlike previous England teams seem more able to be tactically flexible. But Gareth's utterly inappropriate handling of the penalty takers is the main reason Italy has the Euro trophy and not England.
I thought England was brilliant in handling the Italians - they are so damned difficult to play against - and to get to a penalty shoot-out was a huge achievement.
I never expected Italy to go goal-less and was relieved to see a penatly shoout-out although on edge like everybody watching.
Did Sterling or Grealish make it known they would step up or were they told to follow orders?
This ranks with Ollie's 'tactics' in that Euopean final where key players were run ragged except I think Gareth's decisions here take the cake for appalling.
Just give them 15-30 minutes off the bench even. The starters were tired. You aren't losing any quality. Putting quality players who have been mismanaged on in the last minute is as if you're saying he doesn't rate the rest of their game above another who's played 100 minutes so all he trusts in them is a penalty. It's horrific.
Yep, totally agree.
Because they're boring.
Replace the 'they're' with 'mine' and you're spot on.
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Sorry I don't believe in the Illuminati.
That's harsh on Gareth - he's achieved something significant in helping mould this team into one which can get to a final and doesn't have the conceit issues of a few previous England teams. However, it really makes you wonder why he couldn't learn from his own situation as a young un back in the day who failed to convert a penalty in a similar pressure cooker game.
Just like Ollie had appalling tactics for that European final despite all his experience and success as a player. Including running players ragged.
However, I couldn't see Italy conceding another goal when I was watching the game live so the penalty shoot-out should have been enough to take England home.
In Gareth's case it seems to be some misguided attempt to 'trust youth' but there is nothing wrong with saying to young lads, I know you really think you can do it but for now, just stay out of it and let the experienced players face the fire. Instead he relied on 'practicing penalties' - yeah, that's been done before to no success - and allowed experienced players to dip out or maybe he told them not to worry. Either way, no tactical nouse when it counts.
I think this was Southgates thought process for the decision: "Well, everyone wants Sancho and Rashford, I will deliver. If they fail, they can see why I did not bring them. If they succeed, I am a genius for bringing them for the penalty. Either way, I cannot lose"
Southgate doesn't strike me a someone who reads let alone analyzing studies. Milking the clock for penalties instead of trying to win with Sancho, Grealish, Foden and Rashford on the bench against a weakened Italian team that was there for the taking, against a GK that saved 68% of all the pens he faced and never lost a shootout. It's ridiculous.
It was horrible for sancho and rashford but in the heat of the moment southgate just wanted to win. To call him a pathetic manager is crazy given he was a few penalties away from winning the euros.
Everyone misses penalties. It happens. Rashford, sancho and saka will get over it.
Everyone misses penalties. It happens. Rashford, sancho and saka will get over it.
Southgate got exposed by Mancini; Italy was cruising and ready to take the game to pens and it was time to pressure them, time to make a substitution but Southgate just did nothing instead 
He then threw on Rashford and Sancho so they could be fed to the wolves and it happened. Shocker.
He then threw on Rashford and Sancho so they could be fed to the wolves and it happened. Shocker.
By relying on penalty England played directly into Italy's hands. Because toe to toe in a full 90 min theres no way Italy could have survived England attacks if it keeps coming at them.
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Taking a penalty in a pressure situation I would think the size of the goalposts would look minute and legs turning to jelly. Although they are professional footballers they are still human and the burden of the nation do affect them. It takes a special kind of personality even to volunteer. Give the kids a break, they'll be hurting enough.
Even one of the world's best penalty taker in Jorginho missed his penalty, shit happens.
To be fair, Italy were the better team for most of the game. I'm not sure what you mean Italy could not have survived. England had no attacking intent. I can't think of a shot on goal for the entire 120 plus minutes outside of Shaw scoring in the first minutes.
Ronaldo got booed after the altercation with Rooney. It just spurred him on more.
Shaw, Rice, Trippier, Maguire, Stones, Walker. That's 6 defenders and Saka joined in the 70th minute if i remember correctly. Had a feeling if it comes to penalty, Italy would have the upper hand. I dunno, if it were up to me I'd play more attacking players since the beginning not putting them during penalty shootout. This England team has so many talents up front.
There’s so much hindsight on this thread it’s ridiculous. If Maguire had missed and Rashford scored you’d all be saying why is a centre back taking a penalty.
Also, odd that LVG is treated like a genius for subbing a new keeper on in the WC, and OGS was criticised for not subbing on Henderson in the Europa League final. If either of those had been unsuccessful then the managers would have been criticised for that. Can’t win (unless you win obviously).
Also, odd that LVG is treated like a genius for subbing a new keeper on in the WC, and OGS was criticised for not subbing on Henderson in the Europa League final. If either of those had been unsuccessful then the managers would have been criticised for that. Can’t win (unless you win obviously).
You forgot Phillips who's also a defensive-minded player. Saka had a terrible game. I would think the occasion got to him.
I think you are wrong here. “Pathetic” is probably not the right word. And some of the nonsense here that Southgate was vindictive was obviously wrong.
But to say “it’s penalties, it happens” is equally nonsense too. Scoring a penalty in a high stakes shootout is all about handling pressure. To handle it you need resilience and confidence. They might ordinarily have this but in these finals, where they have barely played in the last month, where they were not brought on until right in the end (which is like saying hey, I like your penalties but at the same time I don’t trust you enough to play you for even 15 minutes before penalties), where you know you’ve only been brought on for penalties, creates a serious amount of pressure above what you would already face as a player taking the penalty. Yes, anyone can miss. And yes they all might have missed anyway. But it’s ignorant to ignore that we could have given them a better chance at scoring.
I just wouldn't think Rashford and Sancho would be in that confidence zone in the England set up being such big players at club level and sitting mostly on the bench. I'd want players that take huge penalties to be A) more experienced for England than Saka and Sancho and B) those that have a spring in their stride during the tournament due to manager's faith (not Rashford and Sancho).
You could read it this way. And it’s not a unreasonable take at all. But I do think you’re missing the point. For me, it’s not that they took them that fundamentally is the issue. It’s HOW we set them up for it. It’s the fact we brought Sancho and Rashford on so late, especially when they have hardly played all tournament. It’s the fact that that Saka went at 5. I personally don’t agree with who took them, but if we were going to pick these young guys, then surely set them up better to succeed.
Shocking decision from Southgate for sure but imo both deserve to be criticised (of course not the racist abuse).
My opinion is definitely not popular here but as a seasoned professional footballer, if you miss a pen, let alone in a Euro final you obviously deserve to be criticised. Rashford you may say he's a bit unlucky as he managed to make Donnaruma jumped the wrong side and hit the post. But Sancho's one is poor imo.
We're United fans and we surely should support our players, but not blindly I think.
My opinion is definitely not popular here but as a seasoned professional footballer, if you miss a pen, let alone in a Euro final you obviously deserve to be criticised. Rashford you may say he's a bit unlucky as he managed to make Donnaruma jumped the wrong side and hit the post. But Sancho's one is poor imo.
We're United fans and we surely should support our players, but not blindly I think.
I'm sorry but that is nonsense.
I reckon southgate knows these lads more than all of us put together can we agree on that?
He picked the takers. If they really didn't want to take it they would've refused. They shot, they missed. That's what happens in penalty shootouts.
Life goes on.
Or do you know the ultimate method of winning a penalty shootout?
It added a ridiculous amount of unnecessary pressure in an already huge pressure moment, the likes of which we regular people can never imagine.
He completely threw them under the bus. No faith whatsoever in them to even play 10 minutes and get a feel for the ball before pens, just the ridiculous pressure of saying to two young lads, I don’t trust you to play, but go score a pen, that’s the only reason you’re here.
He completely threw them under the bus. No faith whatsoever in them to even play 10 minutes and get a feel for the ball before pens, just the ridiculous pressure of saying to two young lads, I don’t trust you to play, but go score a pen, that’s the only reason you’re here.
Penalties are a lottery, one we usually lose, but I think the decision to bring on Rashford and Sancho so late and therefore for the sole purpose of taking a pen was wrong. Easy to say in hindsight of course. But why experienced players aren't stepping up I really can't understand. Why take Henderson off? He should have taken on, the captain of Liverpool who's won it all. Sterling? Even Grealish would have been a better bet. Rashford and Sancho barely played in that tournament..... To put all that pressure on them was unfair. They were set up to fail.
They both barely played all tournament. Being 4/5th choice behind the likes of feckin Mount and Saka - neither of whom have a goal in them.
Asking a player to take a penalty without having touched the ball is bonkers. Silly decision.
Did I say I know the ultimate method? No. Did I say I know the players better? No. Did I even say that Southgate forced them to take them? No.
“They shot, they missed, that’s what happens” is such a bullshit take. Why bother with tactics and formations - they played, they lost, that’s what happens.
Like I said, anyone can miss a penalty. The issue though is Southgate made certain decisions which did not give them the best chance to score.
I'm actually not bothered by our defeat by penalties. It's 50/50, and those things happen.
What I am bothered about is our game-plan during the game.
What I am bothered about is our game-plan during the game.
Yep..... No killer instinct. A second goal would have sealed it I felt. We stopped playing and were hanging on for the last 75 minutes.
It's not even about the pens for me, you miss some, a lot of huge players missed them and will miss them. The biggest problem is Southgate being a pussy and introducing his flair players at the 119th min, that's so fecking wrong on so many levels
I’ve been in that situation in a tinpot semi pro cup and I don’t think enough people realise how uncomfortable it is to be asked to take a shot from 12 yards, (the most important in their lives for these guys), without even touching the fecking ball before hand.
Like asking a golfer to make the most important putt of his life, whilst spending the past two hours sat on a bench.
Utterly fecking ludicrous.
He kept Rashford and Sancho on the bench the entire tournament, of course Southgate did a bad job, but a penalty is on the player and Rashford melted like ice crem.
Gareth Southgate, whose players missed 3 penalties: idiot, moron, can't make a good decision to save his life.
Roberto Mancini, whose players missed 2 penalties: wonderful, entirely outclassed Southgate, whole other level.
Roberto Mancini, whose players missed 2 penalties: wonderful, entirely outclassed Southgate, whole other level.
Apologies in relation to your first paragraph but I am genuinely interested to hear what you would've done instead? I am not taking the piss here. If you went back in time and were gareth himself, what would you have done differently? I personally think there's only so much a manager can do when being in a shootout.
I don't think I understand your last paragraph. Are you saying for example that he couldve gave the two of them more game time tonight and thus prepared them more for penalties? If so, I agree, but they still couldve missed the penalties.
Totally agree. Such poor management.
Those issues are linked.