The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll

[Wolverine]

If they decide these cases are unrelated it will only be a pause for a few days. They’re erring on the side of caution while this is investigated. Could be full steam ahead by middle of this week.

It’s a PR nightmare though. Music to the ears of antivaxxers.

The NIAC's statements are a bit strange though, I get precautionary principle. But they literally said on Friday they wouldn't recommend deferment, then another statement today they would recommend it but will meet again today and possibly say something different.

I suppose I may not be cognisant of any precedents or frameworks and how certain health agencies might be compelled or bound to act certain ways regarding vaccine provision should there be any concerns, however small to look into side effects.

 

[hmchan]

Are the new cases amongst those that have been vaccinated or those that have not yet been vaccinated?

I don't have detailed information. But in countries with a massive vaccination campaign (e.g. US, UK, Israel), the total case number as a whole should fall steadily irrelevant if an individual is vaccinated or not.

 

[711]

I don't have detailed information. But in countries with a massive vaccination campaign (e.g. US, UK, Israel), the total case number as a whole should fall steadily irrelevant if an individual is vaccinated or not.

Arithmetic would say not. It would depend on the proportion of the population vaccinated and the rate of infection amongst the unvaccinated. You need figures to back up your theory.

 

[hmchan]

Arithmetic would say not. It would depend on the proportion of the population vaccinated and the rate of infection amongst the unvaccinated. You need figures to back up your theory.

US:
UK:
Israel:
Chile:

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The NIAC's statements are a bit strange though, I get precautionary principle. But they literally said on Friday they wouldn't recommend deferment, then another statement today they would recommend it but will meet again today and possibly say something different.

I suppose I may not be cognisant of any precedents or frameworks and how certain health agencies might be compelled or bound to act certain ways regarding vaccine provision should there be any concerns, however small to look into side effects.

The Friday statement was relating to a different issue. The PRAC (safety review team within EMEA) met to review the concerns coming out of Austria after a patient had a PE. They decided this was unrelated, so no need to pause roll-out.

This latest issue in Norway seems to have only come to light over thIs weekend.

 

[jojojo]

It is. Well, coagulopathies in general.

It’s a really complicated picture. The Austrian issue was a pulmonary embolus. Which is a clot. The issue in Norway seems to be excessive bleeding, due to low platelets.

Covid messes with your clotting pathways and can causes clots and bleeds. But I don’t think it’s associated with low platelets.

There were low platelet reports for the Pfizer earlier this year. As usual trying to see the wood for the trees comes down to looking at the big numbers of people vaccinated and comparing the incident reports to whatever is the normal annual rate in similar groups. On analysis those just looked like coincidence, but of course no one can rule out the idea that the vaccine (and the immune response to it) could be the trigger, just as covid itself triggers other problems.

The Norwegian one is striking because they're looking at multiple instances, which are hard to write off as just random coincidence. The fact that they happened to a group of healthcare workers, under 50s makes them stand out - to the point where they must be looking at batch numbers and even external factors about the site(s) or the syringes etc.

 

[711]

US:
UK:
Israel:
Chile:

I don't understand the Chinese sorry (and sorry again if it's not Chinese), does that show the rate of infection amongst those vaccinated for at least 3 weeks in Chile?

 

[Grinner]

So is it fair to say that anyone experiencing blood flow issues from the vaccine would have had the same issues if they had caught Covid?

 

[golden_blunder]

Good thing I’m on warfarin

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So is it fair to say that anyone experiencing blood flow issues from the vaccine would have had the same issues if they had caught Covid?

Unfortunately not. Could be something else completely going on. I’m still hopeful what happened to those people in Norway had absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine (or covid)

 

[djembatheking]

I was put on aspirin last August by my GP and referred to vascular dept to investigate more , blood pressure low in my right leg and GP suspects some kind of restriction and may need stent . I am still waiting for appointment due to covid , all this clotting stuff is quite worrying as I am 54 and must be getting close for jab.

 

[11101]

The Norwegian one is striking because they're looking at multiple instances, which are hard to write off as just random coincidence. The fact that they happened to a group of healthcare workers, under 50s makes them stand out - to the point where they must be looking at batch numbers and even external factors about the site(s) or the syringes etc.

This is what happened in Italy and led to the suspension, all from the same batch too. An active duty soldier and a police commando both died soon after taking it.

They have only suspended one batch nationwide but individual regions are starting to suspend the whole lot today.

 

[redshaw]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Probably also about 7-8 million AZ vs 2-3 million Pfizer or at least the majority so statistically better than pfizer.

The reports are worrying about 3 health workers under 50 and those two Italian deaths. I wonder where these batches have been made, we've heard about poor yields in EU based plants.

From Reuters
"The source said Aifa had moved after Stefano Paterno, a 43-year-old navy officer, died earlier this week of a suspected heart attack the day after his jab.

A second man, 50-year-old policeman Davide Villa, died last weekend, some 12 days after his jab. Local newspapers reported he fell ill within 24 hours of his injection and never recovered."

 

[Eire Red United]

Good news

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Probably also about 7-8 million AZ vs 2-3 million Pfizer or at least the majority so statistically better than pfizer.

The reports are worrying about 3 health workers under 50 and those two Italian deaths. I wonder where these batches have been made, we've heard about poor yields in EU based plants.

Eh? Think you’re taking vaccine nationalism a bit far with that comment!

 

[redshaw]

Eh? Think you’re taking vaccine nationalism a bit far with that comment!

I think you're reading too far into it.

I've merely read about some poor yields. The UK data seems to show nothing suspicious, the reports from other European countries are focusing on certain batches. I'm just wondering where these were made. I've actually asked for UK data a few posts ago suspicious of UK possibly withholding data and then found it myself.

I'm not actually in favour of the AZ vaccine so far and would rather see any factory making the AZ vaccine switch if there's any issues or people not wanting it. Your comment is quite bizarre really.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think you're reading too far into it.

I've merely read about some poor yields. The UK data seems to show nothing suspicious, the reports from other European countries are focusing on certain batches. I'm just wondering where these were made.

I'm not actually a big fan of the AZ vaccine so far and would rather see any factory making the AZ vaccine switch if there's any issues or people not wanting it. Your comment is quite bizarre really.

My comment is bizarre?! You were the one linking manufacturing at “EU based plants” to these adverse events. Which is, being kind, a bit of a stretch.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Say something bizarre, have it questioned, label the one doing questioning bizarre. Good stuff.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

To be fair, with small clusters like this it is worth looking into the specific batch. As well as local issues around how the vaccines were stored and administered. What syringes were used etc etc

We’ve no reason to suspect that there are any issues around manufacturing in EU vs anywhere else though.

 

[redshaw]

The German developed and Belgium made vaccine is the one I'd want if I have a choice, there's no vaccine nationalism from me. Mainland Europe and Belgium is a world leader. The AZ poor yields could be down to British overseeing these new factories and could well be manufactured in Britain.

 

[Penna]

This is a strange story, and a little concerning (edit - I see it's mentioned above in the thread).

(ANSA) - SIRACUSA, MAR 12 - AstraZeneca Italia CEO Lorenzo Wittum is one of four people placed under investigation as a formality in the death of navy sub-lieutenant Stefano Paternò, who died three days ago near Catania a day after having his first COVID jab. The other three probed are a doctor and nurse in the military hospital where the jab was given and an emergency doctor.
Astrazeneca said Friday there was no evidence of increased risk of blood clots from the vaccine.
In all, three people including a Sicilian police officer and a Carbiniere have died after getting the vaccine in Italy.
Health ministry prevention chief Gianni Rezza urged people to avoid unjustified alarmism "because so far no causal link has been shown" between the three deaths and the Astrazeneca batch, which has been banned as a precaution.
Rezza added that Italy expected the "maximum transparency" from the drugs firm. (ANSA).

https://www.ansa.it/english/news/ge...ath_6ed95d69-0498-4832-a48f-a7df691f5d2c.html

 

[Eyepopper]

If they decide these cases are unrelated it will only be a pause for a few days. They’re erring on the side of caution while this is investigated. Could be full steam ahead by middle of this week.

It’s a PR nightmare though. Music to the ears of antivaxxers.

Nightmare, my 78 year old cancer survivor mum is now terrified and insisting on not having it, she was due this week, she has underlying issues relating to blood clotting, she's been on thinners for 20 years.

 

[Wibble]

My comment is bizarre?! You were the one linking manufacturing at “EU based plants” to these adverse events. Which is, being kind, a bit of a stretch.

Not to mention it is quite likely that at least some of those are mere correlation and not causation.

 

[langster]

I've been contacted today to book mine in for next Friday. I presume it will be the Oxford/AZ vaccine as I'm sure I read that the Pfizer one will only be given as a second dose to those who have already received it.

I'm only 47 but had a brain haemorrhage (aneurysm) 5 years ago so am apparently high risk for my age.

My mum, dad and sister have all had their first jab already (Pfizer) but myself and my partner haven't. Her mum is refusing and turned hers down. (She's a conspiracy nut, Mormon and complete anti vaxer)

I want the vaccine and feel I should have it especially as I run a pub and until I got the text I was absolutely 100% sure I would have it, but the hesitation of other countries is definitely making me worry a bit.

 

[simonhch]

Got the Pfizer jab today. Go back for the second dose in three weeks. 40 years old with no underlying conditions. Roll out is happening fast here.

 

[redshaw]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56397157

Netherlands the latest to suspend the AZ vaccine until the end of the month as a precaution

Denmark, Norway, Bulgaria, Iceland and Thailand are the others.

 

[Wibble]

Got the Pfizer jab today. Go back for the second dose in three weeks. 40 years old with no underlying conditions. Roll out is happening fast here.

Seems to be going much better but still patchy. My son is at Uni in Santa Barbara and he has no idea when he is getting the jab. However, some of his mates are going back home in the next break as they can get one easily in San Francisco.

 

[Wibble]

I've been contacted today to book mine in for next Friday. I presume it will be the Oxford/AZ vaccine as I'm sure I read that the Pfizer one will only be given as a second dose to those who have already received it.

I'm only 47 but had a brain haemorrhage (aneurysm) 5 years ago so am apparently high risk for my age.

My mum, dad and sister have all had their first jab already (Pfizer) but myself and my partner haven't. Her mum is refusing and turned hers down. (She's a conspiracy nut, Mormon and complete anti vaxer)

I want the vaccine and feel I should have it especially as I run a pub and until I got the text I was absolutely 100% sure I would have it, but the hesitation of other countries is definitely making me worry a bit.

The risk to your health from getting covid with your previous health issues far outweighs the risk of getting vaccinated. The clot thing won't come to anything I'd guess and will either be an irrelevant correlation (no higher incidence of getting a clot weather vaccinated or not) or such a slight extra risk as to getting vaccinated being the least risk option.

 

[langster]

The risk to your health from getting covid with your previous health issues far outweighs the risk of getting vaccinated. The clot thing won't come to anything I'd guess and will either be an irrelevant correlation (no higher incidence of getting a clot weather vaccinated or not) or such a slight extra risk as to getting vaccinated being the least risk option.

Yeah, I agree. It's just not the thing you need to hear before it's your turn.

 

[11101]

Between Italy Germany and France there are around 25% of people who would refuse the AZ vaccine for another type, and that was before this clotting issue.

I think it will get to a point where a number of EU countries start to drop it. By mid summer there will be more than enough vaccines to go around everybody and the AZ vaccine wont be worth the hassle if people are turning up to appointments and refusing it.

 

[Wibble]

Yeah, I agree. It's just not the thing you need to hear before it's your turn.

Not at all helpful

 

[lynchie]

Between Italy Germany and France there are around 25% of people who would refuse the AZ vaccine for another type, and that was before this clotting issue.

I think it will get to a point where a number of EU countries start to drop it. By mid summer there will be more than enough vaccines to go around everybody and the AZ vaccine wont be worth the hassle if people are turning up to appointments and refusing it.

Quite possibly, and in the meantime, a number of people will have died needlessly.

 

[11101]

Quite possibly, and in the meantime, a number of people will have died needlessly.

Vaccine hesitancy will always be a factor, especially in countries where getting vaccinated has until recently not been quite so prevalent. The UK is quite unique in that respect.


The authorities erring on the side of caution and following proper procedures is a good thing, even if it slows the campaign down slightly.

 

[zing]

The risk to your health from getting covid with your previous health issues far outweighs the risk of getting vaccinated. The clot thing won't come to anything I'd guess and will either be an irrelevant correlation (no higher incidence of getting a clot weather vaccinated or not) or such a slight extra risk as to getting vaccinated being the least risk option.

This is irresponsible advice. The facts are unknown.

 

[balaks]

This is irresponsible advice. The facts are unknown.

The facts are that a relatively tiny number of people have got blood clots however it has not been proven to be associated with the vaccine. Those are the facts at the moment.

 

[Dumbstar]

Vaccine hesitancy will always be a factor, especially in countries where getting vaccinated has until recently not been quite so prevalent. The UK is quite unique in that respect.


The authorities erring on the side of caution and following proper procedures is a good thing, even if it slows the campaign down slightly.

Are they, though? They're erring on the side of lots off deaths from where we're sitting. They need to have really strong evidence to allow this many needless deaths.

 

[zing]

The facts are that a relatively tiny number of people have got blood clots however it has not been proven to be associated with the vaccine. Those are the facts at the moment.

It’s caused enough signal to make multiple countries pause vaccination. It hasn’t been proven that it’s not associated with the vaccine yet either. The right response would be to wait and see what happens, not be so dogmatic that you keep doling out ‘All vaccine good’ advice.

 

[Solius]

The facts are that a relatively tiny number of people have got blood clots however it has not been proven to be associated with the vaccine. Those are the facts at the moment.

Are these blood clots that have caused deaths? Or how have they known this?

 

[11101]

Are they, though? They're erring on the side of lots off deaths from where we're sitting. They need to have really strong evidence to allow this many needless deaths.

In what respect? Pausing a vaccine to investigate possible side effects? That's how it's supposed to work. Anything else would undermine the entire system.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Are these blood clots that have caused deaths? Or how have they known this?

At least one person has died, yes. Others have been hospitalised. These are serious adverse events. They wouldn’t pause the roll-out for non-serious adverse events.

It’s a tricky one. I do think they’re erring on the side of caution. And people should be reassured by that. It shows that they are monitoring the safety profile carefully and if there’s even a hint of a concern they won’t inject anyone else until it’s fully investigated. That’s a sensible, cautious approach. The worry is that it can have the opposite effect. Instead of feeling reassured it ends up making everyone more nervous. Catch 22.