NinjaZombie
Punched the air when Liverpool beat City
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2011
- Messages
- 10,198
It's not tinkering. Scheduling issues means he has to rotate. I'd be one of those moaning if he continually played the same players and ran them to the ground.
It wasn't his intention to give them 45 minutes. To suggest his tinkering works when he had to call upon players he never wanted to call upon isn't really a strong point, is all I'm saying.And as such, he won the game and they had 45 minutes rest
How cant you see this as a positive? I’d understand if we had dropped points....
It doesnt matter, he’s entitled to use them from the bench. Every tinkering manager in world football will at times need to bring his best players on to turn games. I was the great man Fergie do it countless times, you see Klopp do it often.It wasn't his intention to give them 45 minutes. To suggest his tinkering works when he had to call upon players he never wanted to call upon isn't really a strong point, is all I'm saying.
I never said 45 minute rest is a bad thing though.
Whilst tinkering relates to starting a different looking side more than just occasionally, it only works if your starting line-up is justified. Not if you have to go to the bench to rectify a mistaken team selection. That's a failed tinker, which was rectified at half time.It doesnt matter, he’s entitled to use them from the bench. Every tinkering manager in world football will at times need to bring his best players on to turn games. I was the great man Fergie do it countless times, you see Klopp do it often.
Because we have gone 5 games with conceding first and then having to react. Surely you can see its a problem. Its not the game. Everyone's buzzing about the result. Everyone's buzzing about our league position. We can still analyze areas of improvement and its glaring and baffling how we can be the worst team one minute and world class the next. And its happening over and over again. If its not because we keep tinkering then what is it? Because if we are to achieve anything it has to be sorted.And as such, he won the game and they had 45 minutes rest
How cant you see this as a positive? I’d understand if we had dropped points....
He is basically playing all the time, so that does not have to be true. Last time he sat out the first half, we were still the dominate side. Fernandes is obviously very important for this team, but it´s a game of 90 minutes, and United tend to play better second half. It seems like every team that plays United these days, comes with the plan of pressing us high and intensive, as they do not respect our abilities to play out from the back. They have seen other teams beating us that way. Then they run out of steam, and we hammer them in the second. If Fernandes and Rashford had played the first half, and Donny and Canavi the second, I think the pictures would have been different. So I think the fans are a bit unfair to those playing first half when we are forgetting there are two teams on the pitch.We have loads of games coming up this December including are most important match of the season on Tuesday we also didn’t get much pre season and break for the players. We have to rotate so I don’t see a problem with this. The only problem is the level drops so much when we leave out Bruno
Take out the names and this describes Potter's Brighton perfectly, but he gets loads of praise for it and it is seen as a positive.The problem is -
We change systems all the time.5 at the back. Diamond. 4-3-3. Two holding midfielders. One holding midfielder. etc
We change players on mass. Not just one or two. On mass. 3,4,5
We change the players positions.
We play to many players that are finding form or adjusting.
None of the above is bad. Its good. But not all together. Or you get FA cup syndrome. Fact.
Ok, thanks for your input. My point is that we managed to rest our best 2 players for 45 minutes and still win the game, which is a plus ahead of Leipzig.Because we have gone 5 games with conceding first and then having to react. Surely you can see its a problem. Its not the game. Everyone's buzzing about the result. Everyone's buzzing about our league position. We can still analyze areas of improvement and its glaring and baffling how we can be the worst team one minute and world class the next. And its happening over and over again. If its not because we keep tinkering then what is it? Because if we are to achieve anything it has to be sorted.
Lots of tinkerman articles doing the rounds in the last few days. Find it quite baffling especially after the "Unchanged FC" and "running players into the ground" arguments in the summer. Damned if you do rest and rotate, damned if you don't.
Do people not realise this season is massively different compared to the past?
No one is saying dont rotate. Playing the same 11 week in week out is as nuts as changing it constantly. However there is an art to making changes. You have to do it in a way that is not detrimental to the team. The problem is that Ole not only changes players, he changes formation, he changes positioning. Every game. Its too much change. Im 99 percent sure other teams know this as well and get their teams to press us early on so when we are out of sorts and finding out feet.He'd be mad not to tinker and rotate due to the circumstances, the issue is we don't have the squad depth to make it not massively noticeable when he does so.
This is it for me too. It’s not the player rotation. It’s a bit more the formation, but even then not 100 percent that...it’s the style. The mindset, how to play etc. changes too much.This issue isn't tinkering. The issue is not having a defined style. Look at the way we played our last three games? Its what makes the likes of Pep and Klopp stand out in comparison to lesser managers. Players in those teams know their roles weeks before a match. I doubt our players know what they're doing during the match.
The issue for me isn't changing players up, it's fine, SAF used to do it all the time. Nowadays with the COVID context, it's even more vital.
What annoys me is the use of so many formations. That must not be easy for the players to adapt to
Agreed but that all goes under the umbrella of tinkering.This issue isn't tinkering. The issue is not having a defined style. Look at the way we played our last three games? Its what makes the likes of Pep and Klopp stand out in comparison to lesser managers. Players in those teams know their roles weeks before a match. I doubt our players know what they're doing during the match.
It's both tinkering and a lack of defined style of play imo. A common denominator during the two times we were consistent under Ole(second half of last season and his early interim period) was having an unchanged FC. Both of these teams started becoming inconsistent when the players started getting tired and there was no strong depth to back them up.This issue isn't tinkering. The issue is not having a defined style. Look at the way we played our last three games? Its what makes the likes of Pep and Klopp stand out in comparison to lesser managers. Players in those teams know their roles weeks before a match. I doubt our players know what they're doing during the match.
But surely if Ole keeps changing our shape as well as the players on the team sheet, we won't reach a situation where individuals know what is expected when they are asked to play in a certain position?It's both tinkering and a lack of defined style of play imo. A common denominator during the two times we were consistent under Ole(second half of last season and his early interim period) was having an unchanged FC. Both of these teams started becoming inconsistent when the players started getting tired and there was no strong depth to back them up.
This season we have good depth now to rotate with the unchanged FC we used in the second half of last season that made us consistent . Except now some of these players are off form so the unchanged team needs to change. The problem here is Ole simply hasn't found the squad that works and that is why he is always tinkering formations and players and because of this we are not consistent.
We will find consistency whenever Ole discovers his unchanged Fc again and when that team gets tired or some players are off form we will become inconsistent again because Ole does not know how to get the best out of the depth he has and he doesn't know how because he is more reliant on individual quality than a defined style of play
I got push back in the match thread and it seems like Im the only one saying this but it has to be said......We make too many changes. There I said it. Its the reason for our inconsistency. Different systems, different players, different positions of players. All the time! Maybe Im wrong but I dont remember any Prem/Seria A/Champs League etc winning team that made so many changes.
Now dont get me wrong we need to use our squad. But its about making smart changes not sweeping changes. Its like the FA cup. You see a Prem side put out a team worth 300 mill against a team thats worth 100 grand. Yeah they could be brilliant and hammer them 5-0 or there can be a shock defeat. Happens all the time. Why? Because you cant just throw on 11 players and guarantee they will click. Even is they are man for man miles better the team that is better coached, drilled and used to playing together might win. It evens the odds. Why do teams like Greece win the Euros.
Everyone says Ole did well against West Ham to make changes and it was all about Bruno being the catalyst etc. It was. But the reason the first half team played sht was not because they are sht but because there were too many changes. Pogba/Greenwood just coming back. Martial out of form and back to left where he hasnt been playing much. Keepers first game. New midfield trio. Too many players finding their feet, getting to know one another, find form and work out the system. The first half team should work. But give them a pre-season or at least some time to gel.
Tell me Im crazy or give me a reason for our inconsistencies. Its no fluke we are world class one minute and the worst team in the league the next.
Ole is a cautious manager. And his position seems to be under review as of late I don't think he would take the risk of letting the players develop muscle memory by them playing together consistently unless they start performing from the get go.But surely if Ole keeps changing our shape as well as the players on the team sheet, we won't reach a situation where individuals know what is expected when they are asked to play in a certain position?
The chopping and changing of formation and faces is stopping the team from developing its own version of muscle memory, so when someone comes in to replace an injured team mate, for example, they don't know for sure what their role is going to be and positionally, what is expected of them. I understand you have to be able to flex things but there should be a core shape that is favoured at home or away.
I would have thought that this was a key requirement to train players to behave as a unit and build up a clear understanding of who does what. When you do this very well, you get to the situation that observers call telepathy between players. Currently, our team's setting is firmly on brain freeze most of the time.
Is definitely the biggest issue in getting our chemistry flowing this season, I have no issue rotating players due to the hectic schedule, but I’d prefer a settled formation. Let the opposition worry about us.New formations, combinations and setups every game
Player rotation is fine. We have to give players a break to minimise the risk of them getting burnt out later in the season.Serious amount of games coming up and I’m more than happy for lads to be getting a break.
a shame that it seems Tuanzebe is not able to play 2 games in a row. He did fine against Everton.AWB missing has caused the mass tinkering today. Don’t think he’d have picked such a vastly different side to the usual If AWB was fit
Its potentially not a massive change. This may well be our usual shape just with Lindelof at RB.AWB missing has caused the mass tinkering today. Don’t think he’d have picked such a vastly different side to the usual If AWB was fit