I'm really not getting your point, there have been dozens of bills passed in the US to exclude transgender kids from sports. How can you argue it's not about exclusion?
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That's effectively a ban, because in most schools there simply aren't transgender kids to start teams. A transgender girl who wants to play basketball will be a team of one, if she wants to run, she will have no one to run against.The only way, which isn't a perfect solution, is to just create new categories for each so you'd have mens, womens, transmens and transfemales events. There's really no other way if you want to avoid banning.
From all categories? It's a genuine question.I'm really not getting your point, there have been dozens of bills passed in the US to exclude transgender kids from sports. How can you argue it's not about exclusion?
A transgender 14 year old girl would have no one to form a team with and no one to compete against. It would be a ban in practice.Male category, female category and open category is probably the best. But you could only apply for one category, with the female category ringfenced for biological females.
Banning transgender girls from girls' sports.From all categories? It's a genuine question.
But not male born girls from boys categories?Banning transgender girls from girls' sports.
Sorry I misinterpreted you. Yes, the bans apply to both transgender boys and girls.But not male born girls from boys categories?
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If we're talking about school sports, the number of non-binary, and trans (both ways) people is increasing, so it'd be a reasonable assumption that she wouldn't be alone.A transgender 14 year old girl would have no one to form a team with and no one to compete against. It would be a ban in practice.
If we're talking about professional sport, the same logic applies. Team sports I guess is a whole other convo. But much of the recent discussion is centred on solo sports, so it's not a bad solution.
It's not my question. Are transgenred girls allowed to compete in boys competition? As an example was Lia Thomas allowed to compete in males swimming?Sorry I misinterpreted you. Yes, the bans apply to both transgender boys and girls.
Very rudimentary maths, I'll give you that.If we're talking about school sports, the number of non-binary, and trans (both ways) people is increasing, so it'd be a reasonable assumption that she wouldn't be alone.
If we're talking about professional sport, the same logic applies. Team sports I guess is a whole other convo. But much of the recent discussion is centred on solo sports, so it's not a bad solution.
Numbers say there are about 300.000 transgender kids in the US, lets assume 150.000 transgender girls. There are 42.000 high schools in the US, so lets round it to 4 transgender girls per high school. Even if they all wanted to play the same sport, which is obviously irrealistic, it wouldn't be enough to start a team. So, in practice, they would be excluded from sports.
Let's say it' s a solo sport, like running. What are the odds that more than one girl would want to practice it per school? Very low, so is the school going to allocate resources, like a coach and travels to competitions for just one kid? In an ideal world, sure, in practice, this hypothetical girl would be excluded from sports.
The bills I've seen passed state kids have to compete in the category of their sex at birth. So transgender girls would be allowed to play in a boys' team I guess. But let's be honest, what girl would want to share a locker room with boys or to be constantly reminded that her school community doesn't see her for who she is? So again, in practice, it's a ban.It's not my question. Are transgenred girls allowed to compete in boys competition? As an example was Lia Thomas allowed to compete in males swimming?
if you don't understand what cis and trans means, that's on you, and i suggest you plug them into google right now and you'll find out within a few seconds.Nope, you tell me. You used the distinction, you qualify it.
i enjoy competitive sports, sure, but i also know there is no such thing as pure equality. there is a vast array of differing natural talents, primarily between cis people. it doesn't stop our enjoyment of it, knowing some athletes are naturally more gifted than others.Then you have an issue with the whole concept of competitive sport. Which is strange for someone posting on a website dedicated to exactly that.
in sports such as football it's even worse, with the lack of financial equality within the game.
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When you take a step back it is a little odd that competing against cis women in sports is seen as an important part of feeling accepted as a trans woman. There’s a really nice example in this documentary of a trans woman who plays for a male football team at an international level without having to change or deny who they really are (2m05s). It helps that they come from a culture with a very long history of acceptance and integration of trans/non-binary people.
That applies both ways. You have no issue putting a boy in girls locker room but immediately mentions that a girl wouldn't want to be in a locker room with boys.The bills I've seen passed state kids have to compete in the category of their sex at birth. So transgender girls would be allowed to play in a boys' team I guess. But let's be honest, what girl would want to share a locker room with boys or to be constantly reminded that her school community doesn't see her for who she is? So again, in practice, it's a ban.
And sport categories are partially based on sex at birth because the sex at birth creates major differences that we already mentioned in the thread. On average a male will develop in a way that gives him massive advantages against females. So in order to allow females to compete at an elite level they have their own category. Everyone is welcomed in the male categories as far as I know, at the exception of certain combat sports.
No, state the difference. We both know what it is and you know that it's the core issue and why you are playing this game.if you don't understand what cis and trans means, that's on you, and i suggest you plug them into google right now and you'll find out within a few seconds.
I'm sorry, what? I want to put boys in girls' locker rooms? What gave you that idea?That applies both ways. You have no issue putting a boy in girls locker room but immediately mentions that a girl wouldn't want to be in a locker room with boys.
From what I read, when kids transition very young, when they are young teenagers the differences are none or close to none.And sport categories are partially based on sex at birth because the sex at birth creates major differences that we already mentioned in the thread. On average a male will develop in a way that gives him massive advantages against females. So in order to allow females to compete at an elite level they have their own category. Everyone is welcomed in the male categories as far as I know, at the exception of certain combat sports.
I don't know why you keep bringing up elite sports, I'm talking about kids playing sports in high school, not the olympics.
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Having an open category resolves everything you've posted here.Very rudimentary maths, I'll give you that.
Numbers say there are about 300.000 transgender kids in the US, lets assume 150.000 transgender girls. There are 42.000 high schools in the US, so lets round it to 4 transgender girls per high school. Even if they all wanted to play the same sport, which is obviously irrealistic, it wouldn't be enough to start a team. So, in practice, they would be excluded from sports.
Let's say it' s a solo sport, like running. What are the odds that more than one girl would want to practice it per school? Very low, so is the school going to allocate resources, like a coach and travels to competitions for just one kid? In an ideal world, sure, in practice, this hypothetical girl would be excluded from sports.
If we're saying there are 150,000 transgender girls (also weird that transwoman written like that is considered dogwhistling, but transgender is ok @stepic ) then we can assume there are at most 150,000 transgender boys and another %age of non-binary, with these numbers only rising if current trends hold. An open category means anyone that doesn't feel comfortable competing with biological males are free to compete in this category. What / how the US allocates time and resource to this is a separate conversation, but I don't think things are as disaggregated as you say.
The fact that you specifically mentioned it as an issue in one way but not the other? But maybe I assumed incorrectly in which case your point is moot.I'm sorry, what? I want to put boys in girls' locker rooms? What gave you that idea?
Because the point of this thread and this issue is elite sport.From what I read, when kids transition very young, when they are young teenagers the differences are none or close to none.
I don't know why you keep bringing up elite sports, I'm talking about kids playing sports in high school, not the olympics.
And why should kid transition very young? That's an issue in itself. Also no teenage is too late from what I understand, you have already developped your skeleton and organs as a male or female.
I'm sure some adults would accept an open category in professional sports, I would leave that decision to them.Having an open category resolves everything you've posted here.
If we're saying there are 150,000 transgender girls (also weird that transwoman written like that is considered dogwhistling, but transgender is ok @stepic ) then we can assume there are at most 150,000 transgender boys and another %age of non-binary, with these numbers only rising if current trends hold. An open category means anyone that doesn't feel comfortable competing with biological males are free to compete in this category. What / how the US allocates time and resource to this is a separate conversation, but I don't think things are as disaggregated as you say.
But when it comes to school sports, two major problems with an open category.
As I've stated multiple times, school sports are about health, inclusion, friendship and well being in general. Having an open category would be a clear message to young kids, still developing their identity, that they are different and their school doesn't accept them for who they are. Studies are clear on the impact of this exclusion on kids' mental health. This is a price I don't think we as a community should be willing to pay.
Second, you're putting a very diverse group of people in the same bag. You would have transgender girls who refuse to play in boys teams even if they are legally allowed because they don't want to share locker rooms with boys, because they want to develop those relations of team spirit and companionship with other girls, etc. Now you're putting them in a locker room with transgender boys who are, in all practical terms of their identity development, boys. This would be cruel and a completely disregard for who these kids are.
Either you're not being clear or my comprehension skills are not that good.The fact that you specifically mentioned it as an issue in one way but not the other? But maybe I assumed incorrectly in which case your point is moot.
Transgender girls don't want to share a locker room with boys and transgender boys don't want to share a locker room with girls. So even if the law says they can, they won't want to do it, and rightfully so. So, you can hide behind the law all you want, but in practice, you're banning them.
I've been talking non stop about school sports.Because the point of this thread and this issue is elite sport.
And why should kid transition very young? That's an issue in itself.
Do girls want to share a locker room with transgender girls and boys want to share a locker room with transgender boys? That's the reciprocal I alluded to.Either you're not being clear or my comprehension skills are not that good.
Transgender girls don't want to share a locker room with boys and transgender boys don't want to share a locker room with girls. So even if the law says they can, they won't want to do it, and rightfully so. So, you can hide behind the law all you want, but in practice, you're banning them.
I've been talking non stop about school sports.
And we are talking about elite sport which includes schools sports. We are talking about high level competitive sport at local, state, national and global level. I could be wrong but you seem to think that the issue concerns leisure sports, in which case we agree categories aren't important.
i'm not playing any game, you clearly are though.No, state the difference. We both know what it is and you know that it's the core issue and why you are playing this game.
Trans is an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as the sex they were assigned at birth.
Cisgender, or simply cis, is an adjective that describes a person whose gender identity aligns with the sex they were assigned at birth - i.e. not trans.
so go on, let's hear it.
not weird at all. trans is short for transgender.transgender girls (also weird that transwoman written like that is considered dogwhistling, but transgender is ok @stepic )
So there is a distinction and that distinction makes a difference between both which is why there are categories in sport.i'm not playing any game, you clearly are though.
Trans is an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as the sex they were assigned at birth.
Cisgender, or simply cis, is an adjective that describes a person whose gender identity aligns with the sex they were assigned at birth - i.e. not trans.
so go on, let's hear it.
I don't have the data to answer your first question. It's anecdotal, I know, but when the law changed in Portugal the vast majority of high school students were ok with sharing bathrooms and locker rooms with transgender kids.Do girls want to share a locker room with transgender girls and boys want to share a locker room with transgender boys? That's the reciprocal I alluded to.
And we are talking about elite sport which includes schools sports. We are talking about high level competitive sport at local, state, national and global level. I could be wrong but you seem to think that the issue concerns leisure sports, in which case we agree categories aren't important.
Speaking for myself, if I'm in a locker room, it would be much much more uncomfortable having a transgender woman walk in than a transgender man. I assume it would be the same for students. After all, they know these kids from school context and they're very likely to know that's who they are, they not faking their whole identity just to perv on locker rooms.
I already disagreed plenty of times that schools sports should have different objectives from pro sports. Well being, health, inclusion and friendship are more important than just win.
christ all that effort just for your point to be that trans people are not cis. well done.So there is a distinction and that distinction makes a difference between both which is why there are categories in sport.
I stated that they were different from the start, you are the one who tried to pretend that there were no distinctions. So well done to you for accepting it.christ all that effort just for your point to be that trans people are not cis. well done.
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Maybe the best compromise would be to allow trans women to compete in women's sports up to a certain point. Once it gets to the level of National or State championships then that would be limited to women athletes who did not go through male puberty. I recognize that won't please everyone but I think it might be the best way to accommodate the "average" trans woman's ability to compete in sports for health, camaraderie, etc while also ensuring that advantages gained from male puberty do not skew the most competitive levels of competition.Very rudimentary maths, I'll give you that.
Numbers say there are about 300.000 transgender kids in the US, lets assume 150.000 transgender girls. There are 42.000 high schools in the US, so lets round it to 4 transgender girls per high school. Even if they all wanted to play the same sport, which is obviously irrealistic, it wouldn't be enough to start a team. So, in practice, they would be excluded from sports.
Let's say it' s a solo sport, like running. What are the odds that more than one girl would want to practice it per school? Very low, so is the school going to allocate resources, like a coach and travels to competitions for just one kid? In an ideal world, sure, in practice, this hypothetical girl would be excluded from sports.
I realize some from both sides might not like that compromise but, to me at least, it seems like it would be fair to the greatest number of people.
please show me where i have stated that there is literally no difference between a cis and trans person.I stated that they were different from the start, you are the one who tried to pretend that there were no distinctions. So well done to you for accepting it.
please show me where i have stated that there is literally no difference between a cis and trans person.
This is an example of pretending that the are no differences. The difference is that the cis woman lost a spot to a male, a male that has biological advantages. Which is the entire issue.if she comes third and therefore strips a cis woman of third, then so be it. the cis woman who now finished 4th also lost to 2 other cis women, so what's the difference?
PS: I did make a mistake in my post to Carolina Red when I used women instead of cis women or females.
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Yes, I agree that school sports, but at some stage, later on at school, those sports start to matter (especially in the States), because they can garner places in college. So I get your point "just offer more scholarships or places at college" but I am not sure how this helps or solves the wider challenges of this situation.But school sports should not be. You just agreed to that. So lets make that distinction between professional sports and school sports. If scholarships are that much of a concern, just add a few more, I doubt the number of transgender girls getting scholarships would be that big to actually make a difference to universities.
trans and cis women are both women.This is an example of pretending that the are no differences. The difference is that the cis woman lost a spot to a male, a male that has biological advantages. Which is the entire issue.
PS: I did make a mistake in my post to Carolina Red when I used women instead of cis women or females.
there is a difference between a blonde-haired woman and a brunette, but they're still both women.
hope this helps.
So you are suggesting that the differences between a cis and trans woman are similar to the differences between two people with different hair pigmentation. That's interesting.trans and cis women are both women.
there is a difference between a blonde-haired woman and a brunette, but they're still both women.
hope this helps.
I love how you keep bringing up a conclusion that I've yet to see anyone in this thread suggest.Yeah, it's absurd. They shouldn't be, let's fix that unhealthy mentality instead of banning kids from sports.
From her time on the Penn women's team.is this the entirety of her races? i was trying to find her overall record but couldn't.
So you don't think there should be tryouts and cuts for school sports?But school sports should not be.
Apparently some folks think that school sports are akin to playing hit and giggle croquet in the back yard.And we are talking about elite sport which includes schools sports. We are talking about high level competitive sport at local, state, national and global level. I could be wrong but you seem to think that the issue concerns leisure sports, in which case we agree categories aren't important.
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It seems that we're just ignoring that at any level and any age group, competitive sports is, by its nature, exclusionary to at least some degree.So you don't think there should be tryouts and cuts for school sports?
An interest in a sport is not necessarily always enough to facilitate your inclusion in a competitive version of it.
Agreed.It seems that we're just ignoring that at any level and any age group, competitive sports is, by its nature, exclusionary to at least some degree.
An interest in a sport is not necessarily always enough to facilitate your inclusion in a competitive version of it.
It reads like that. In France you have PE, leisure sports(at all ages) and competitive sports. The later is systematically divided by categories whether it is skills level, sex, weight or age.Apparently some folks think that school sports are akin to playing hit and giggle croquet in the back yard.