You're misconstruing the argument.
I'm not arguing he was destined to be fat. Of course he could avoid that.
I've only stated that not all athletes are the same. Some are blessed with a physique that lends itself to longevity and some aren't.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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I'm not arguing he was destined to be fat. Of course he could avoid that.
I've only stated that not all athletes are the same. Some are blessed with a physique that lends itself to longevity and some aren't.
Some kids grow quicker than others, and Rooney was one of those who matured at an earlier age. But beyond that the condition of his body and his fitness levels were in his own hands. It's his own fault he now resembles a fat plodder from the lower leagues, not the fault of genetics.
A statement which clearly shows your lack of understanding of epigenetics. EVERYTHING about you starts with your genetics and then environmental pressures cause different genes to have different effects on your body (this is known as gene selection). Rooney wasn't born as an 18 year old; there are millions of men that are fully developed at 18 years old. This doesnt mean they abandon the laws of thermodynamics and start putting on weight everytime they look at a burger.
Body types are VERY EASILY changed; all it takes is a change in diet and excercise. The only reason rooney is out of shape is because he doesnt control his diet and excercise; that is fundamental to the way the human body works. Calories in - Calories out.
Talk about choosing pictures to suit your agenda. That last choice for Milner is hilarious!
It wasn't his skill that the guy applauded, but the determination on display in that match, which people don't care about.
He basically got slated for 6 failed tackles and 7 failed crosses/corners. Most people mocked his failed tackles, only a few might appreciate that as a forward it wasn't his main role to tackle, yet only Tuanzebe had attempted more tackles than him. As the man assigned to take corners, it didn't help him also that the likes of Zlatan, Pogba, Fellaini and Rojo were not in the box.
Offensively, he attempted 6 of our total 10 shots on goal, 2 of them tested Cech, and the other 2 were not far off the post. Martial the striker attempted 2, with one of them from the key pass provided by none other than Rooney the clown himself.
Unlike in many previous games, he had a decent 86% pass accuracy and did not once get dispossessed (Martial dispossessed 5 times, Rashford twice) or have bad touch.
He also got to a good goal scoring position in the box several times, in anticipation of passes or crosses that never came.
People blame him for not passing to Mata in his failed attempt on goal, but Mata was so far behind he couldn't have seen him in the two seconds that he had for the chance.
In a team that were happy to sit back and pass around with two goals down, his failed tackles were for me a consolation to watch, rather than an amusement to be mocked at.
Attempting a tackle and failing often isn't good for the team, because it usually means the player has skipped past you and now has space to play into. It also isn't a good barometer of overall defensive performance. In the first half, Rooney repeatedly failed to pick up Ramsey which allowed him to be one of Arsenal's more influential players. In the second half, Rooney didn't even try picking anyone up, and instead kept gesturing to Carrick or Herrera to cover while he remained where he was. It reminded me a fair bit of Schweinsteiger last season, where people kept harping on that he was showing leadership while really it was just a complete lack of effort.
Offensively, he offered no creativity. He doesn't have the dynamism anymore for quick interchanges and bursts, so all he did was drop deep into space (which Arsenal were happy to give him, knowing he posed no threat) and hit that wide ball to Tuanzebe. Normally he has Valencia there to try to make something happen, but even with Tuanzebe struggling to do much going forward Rooney kept playing that same pass. He just doesn't have much else to offer from deep.
His instinct for getting into good shooting positions is still there, but he doesn't make good use of them. He absolutely should have seen Mata and I think he did, given the way he looked pointedly away from Mata the moment after he missed. Even if he didn't, that just shows a shocking lack of awareness. Rooney was far from the only problem with our performance yesterday, but we regularly look a better side without him.
That sounds like you're saying we should give the special needs kid a big pat on the back for trying so hard in the egg and spoon race, even though he dropped the egg a dozen times and fell flat on his face.
I'd be less harsh with that point if not for the fact he's our highest paid player and captain. Standards should be far higher than "well at least he tried..."
So basically you are saying that Rooney, at 300k/per week, at a club brimming with physios and nutritionists is in a steady decline for the past 4 years because he doesn't eat right and doesn't exercise like he should. Epigenetics indeed....
Let down by his team mates again
I'm getting the patronising whiff of a sports science degree here. Am I right? All you had to do was read my posts properly and you could have saved yourself a bunch of effort.
Nowhere have I said Rooney has an excuse to be overweight, nowhere have I argued against the calories in - calories out rule. Quote the post if you think I have. I've said Rooney could have done more, the last few years could have been better.
My point was that Rooney's body, the one he had as a teenager, doesn't lend itself to longevity. That's not the same as arguing he has no choice but to be a fatty.
Rooney could never be Giggs or Sheringham. Just as Darren Fletcher could never be Zlatan. Tyson Fury could work out all day long, he'll never be built like 19 year old Mike Tyson. Of course genetics play a part in performance. It's nonsense to claim otherwise.
No, i am not a sports scientist. At 19 i was morbidly obese and a whopping 130kg at 6 foot 1. I was always the fat kid and my parents thought that i would magically become skinny as i grew older despite feeding my continuously
. Then i actually learnt about diet and excercise from the experts and now i fluctuate between 85-95kg depending on where i am in my programme.There is absolutely no set of genetics that predisposes a player to start declining in his prime years especially in the way Rooney did (being completely useless at the top level by 30). Lukaku was a full grown man in his late teens just like Rooney and just like countless youth players in various academies. When someone with Rooney's genetics actually dedicates themselves to the sport then they become unstoppable in their prime. The bolded part is actually the opposite of the truth; hence why academies look for people like Rooney who are well developed at a young age.
Yep, being at a top club with loads of good people helped Ravel Morrison didn't it...oh wait
So basically you are saying that Rooney, at 300k/per week, at a club brimming with physios and nutritionists is in a steady decline for the past 4 years because he doesn't eat right and doesn't exercise like he should. Epigenetics indeed....
Nevermind that Rooney was lambasted by Ferguson for being out of shape.
Wayne Rooney started declining in his prime years, not because he didnt look after himself to the level of his peers, but because he is a genetic one-off that does not follow the same rules as everyone else. Maybe scientists should ask for a DNA sample so they can research him
Your point makes sense but in my experience, genetics only play a very small part, and really becomes an issue when you're reaching the apex of fitness. We are talking about the crème de la crème of fitness freaks.
Sports science and nutrition is far too advanced for Rooney to have genetic excuses. He simply relied on his basic abilities to see him through. There are loads of "stocky" players who have similar or more mileage than Rooney and it has never been an issue. The only problem is that such players may have to work harder than other players which may be frustrating for the individual. This is where personal motivation and desires have to reign.
The reason I have zero sympathy for Rooney is that, at a club at United where all the opportunities are at your disposal coupled with the fact he trained with some of the fittest players in his generation in Giggs, Ronaldo, Rio and Carrick, who went that extra mile at their own personal cost, the onus was on him to take that step.
I remember Aguero saying that he and Messi had discussions on diets and personal fitness regimes.
It's a sacrifice he was unwilling to take
Undoubtedly.
Sir Alex always used to say the glow from a title win lasted an hour or two and then his focus would turn to the following season etc whereas with Rooney you get the impression that his focus was always on last nights game, not the next match (like Ronaldo etc etc)
*Its a rubbish explanation from me (probably why im a newbie after 30 years) - but a truly great athlete is looking for marginal gains/advantages and ways to improve and then later adapt. Rooney's version of adapting was "that ball" to Valencia and thinking it made him Paul Scholes
It always used to completely baffle me when people thought Rooney could transition into that role as he got older. As if all Paul Scholes ever did was ping the ball out to the right wing. There was nothing about his game that suggested he would be up for it and that was even before the dramatic decline of the last 2 or 3 years.
@dichinero said it well. Rooney wasn't prepared to make the sacrifices the likes of Giggs made to prolong his career, he was happy to just coast along. Lazy.
And so we get to the point where at 31, and without any really dangerous long term injuries, he's almost completely broken down and his legs have gone. At 31! Incredible.
Ravel didn't make it because he was a jackass, still is, not because there were or weren't any good people around him.Yep, being at a top club with loads of good people helped Ravel Morrison didn't it...oh wait
Nevermind that Rooney was lambasted by Ferguson for being out of shape.
Wayne Rooney started declining in his prime years, not because he didnt look after himself to the level of his peers, but because he is a genetic one-off that does not follow the same rules as everyone else. Maybe scientists should ask for a DNA sample so they can research him
As for Rooney, you should have said his body has failed him. What you said implies his training regime is not right and that he is not eating right which i am sure is not the case. SAF did not blame him for needing some matches to get close to best fitness he just said that is how the situation is. The "he peaked early" theory is probably the most accurate when it comes to his decline.
I was watching him vs Arsenal and while he still retains some of the goodies (free kicks, hitting a long pass without pressure) all aspects regarding speed have completely deserted him. His burning fire was always backed by bursts of speed combined with great technique and power. Half of his goals were probably one touches, now he does not do that anymore. He receives the ball in a dangerous situation and he tries to control it, while 5-6 years ago it would have been a shot. With the speed gone all his other qualities have vanquished or they do not count in his slow, geriatric situation. If i were him i'd go to the USA for a few years and then just retire.
My only regret is that most people fail to acknowledge his contribution. Beyond his amazing numbers, he is one of the greats.
That is just a poor assumption. He was never a cocker spaniel, Rooney was always more of a young bulldog in his prime. Giggs had the body to do that and he certainly did not go bald at 20 (since we allready talked about genetics). I don't think anyone sane is challenging Rooney's commitment and desire to play into his 30's at top level. He just does not have the body for it.
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This is where I don't buy the whole excuse of mileage. He started at 16 and the decline was obvious to some as early as 27/28. That calculates to about 12 years. But there are some players that start at the old age of 17 and didn't show this kind of decline 35/36.
The way I see it, a player who could had plenty potential but could not make the most of it, for a longer career at the top
His set pieces in the Arsenal game were fecking appalling. What game were you watching?
In what way is it a poor assumption? You don't normally get World Class players declining to the level that Rooney has so that at the age of 31 he resembles a pub team player. That's not normal is it? Clearly something is amiss.
There have been rumours and whisperings for years that Rooney didn't look after himself. Plenty of photo evidence of that too.
Name a few of those short stocky players who are playing at a very high level today. I fail to see them.
How many of these 17/18 year old wonder kids were opening their account in the champions league with hat tricks and continued to do so for the next 10 years? How many of them broke all the records at club like Manchester United?
Is it over yet?
The feck has that got to do with wear and tear?
You could say Messi and Ronaldo have lost something from their game, but they are a solar system away from Wayne. His decline has been staggering. Unfortunately a lot of it will be his doing.
He played very very well for 10 years. 18-28 maybe. Most players start later and go into their 30's. Are 10 years enough to play at top level? I think yes.
I think is a poor assumption based on the facts we have. I don't remember hearing he went out for drinks more than the odd Premier League British player or not training well enough. What does it mean to look after oneself? Yoga?. The Giggs model is not for everyone. Giggs and Rooney were always completely different types of players and people. You won't see Mata going to get a pint, because he's Spanish. If your theory is correct, it means we paid him tens of million a year in a situation where the guy has serious athletic problems. It means people at the club have failed miserably in doing their jobs. From fitness coaches, to gaffers we had and leading to people like David Gill or Woody. I rather consider it was just something nobody expected, including Rooney himself, not a miserable failure of people at the club assessing his fitness, lifestyle or choices. His complete silence on being benched for the past year is supporting this theory.
While we can agree on the catastrophic decline he has suffered, he is probably nowhere near PL level now, not to mention Manchester United, it baffles me we seek explanations to things that do not need an explanation. The guy just lost the ability and qualities he once had and the fact that he did it earlier than most players is just a fact. He was also consistently doing wonderful things earlier than most players, i'm not going to repeat that.
Last but not least, i think he deserves some respect even now, as a pub team player, numbers say he wrote history for this club.
Might be difficult to find a club that are willing to pay for Wayne and that he wants to go to. Where do people see him next season?
Its quite obvious from the bolded part that you can't actually assess Rooney without bringing emotion into it. The fact that he didnt dedicate himself to being in top shape doesnt take away from him being a United great. You can't accept that Wayne Rooney isnt the model professional and half arsed his training because you think it paints him in a bad light. Rooney was a world class player for quite a few years only behind Messi and Ronaldo. He is also a player that relies on his talent and effort on the pitch; he lacks the dedication off the pitch which meant he couldnt sustain his level of play into his later years.
Messi had an actual congenital condition that led to him having a hormone deficiency yet he hasnt had the steep decline that Rooney has. But you think that Rooney was predisposed to have the decline that he has had. Its bordering on delusion.
No, he was indeed top level, but so were a few others.
I don't know how people on a discussion forum discussing the dramatic decline of a player is baffling to you.
Players don't normally deteriorate to the level Rooney has for no reason. You don't just wake up one morning and oh whoops I've lost the ability and qualities I once had. How does that work?
Nobody is questioning how good Rooney used to be. He was a fantastic player for many years, everyone agrees with that. But those great years are a long long time ago.
Think maybe MLS... maybe...
I can't see a club in the PL taking him on.
Out of curiosity, I had a look at the Everton forum - earlier in their Rooney thread when the rumours started about him being back there, quite of lot of posters thought it would be great to have him back. Needless to say, when you skip to the final pages - it's mostly negative - even from posters who initially wanted him back or were 50/50. Unfortunately, quite a few mentions of his performance in the Arsenal game.
If we keep playing him this season, we'll be left with no takers if he can't improve.
I was surprised it looked like Everton was interested at the time, and I don't see it happening now. As you say, MLS seem the most likely, Rooney is still a high profile signing and will bring attention to whoever sign him, but his output on the pitch will not be anywhere near worth the wage I'd imagine he'd want to leave. Will be interesting to see what happens, but the most likely scenario imo is that he leaves on subsidized wages if at all.
Everton and Koeman seem interested.
Generous, in the extreme.
Inniesta/Robben/Xavi/Pirlo etc etc were all far better players
I don't get the Wayne being world class thing. None of the big continental clubs have come in for him. They know a world class player when they see one. He was the best English player at a certain time, but I think they saw before us what was on the horizon with him.
Exactly, if he was doing anything positive of note the Rooney camp and his apologists would be out in full force "still has a lot to offer" "fickle fans and manager writing off a legend" "one more year" "midfield" "needs to play to get into England squad" and all that other nonsense. He's been finished as a top level athlete for ages. A 300k a week sportsperson or national team captain wins games for their teams and it's been a very very long time since he's done anything even approaching that with any regularity.
Agreed.
He was undoubtably one of the best young talents in world football in his late teens - he was world class in terms of his potential. He had a period of maybe 2/3 years when i'd say he was easily in the world class bracket at least in his age range.
He was definitely world class in 09/10, that injury to his ankle really messed him up after that point though.
Aren't you one of those that thinks that C.Ronaldo is a glorified Gerd Muller or something like that (I apologize if you're not who i thought you were). The fact that you are comparing Xavi and Pirlo to Rooney is nonsensical. Rooney was an elite forward at his best, in the same bracket as Robben and Eto'o. His best only lasted for maybe 1.5 seasons though, so you can say that he didnt have enough longevity. He was part of the group of forwards during that time that would be one of the best if it wasnt for Ronaldo and Messi.
This man scored in a Champions League final against prime Barcelona, was influential in many successful league and cup runs. Just because he doesnt meet your criteria of what makes a good footballer doesnt change the fact that he is proven at the highest level. Maybe because he is so bad now its easier to detract from his pedigree as a player.
I cannot comment on "body type", but to take height as an example, there is a ~70-80% genetic component (of course, it's a complex phenotype of hundreds or thousands of low-effect genes) -- but this is strictly genetic.
Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28496
Yes, IQ is also a human trait that is roughly 70% genetic. And since IQ is an extremely reliable indicator of socioeconomic success it indicates things that most people find uncomfortable to accept. What has been explored in recent years in epigenetics is in-utero conditions and their effects on later life outcomes. A lot of conclusions on genetic influence have come from twin and familial studies, in-utero research can throw a spanner in the works.
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