Westminster Politics

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
9,175
MadMike said:
Yeah, I can see how anything right of Marx can appear Tory. Myopia.
Click to expand...
I used to think 'big tent' politics was one of those trite phrases that politicians used to state the obvious, but now I realise it was a genuine attempt to signal a proper commitment to having a broad appeal. Which is something Labour need to get back, badly. Labour badly needs a Kinnock figure to bring the ideologues back under control.
 

sun_tzu

The Art of Bore
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
19,536
Location
Still waiting for the Youthquake
nickm said:
I used to think 'big tent' politics was one of those trite phrases that politicians used to state the obvious, but now I realise it was a genuine attempt to signal a proper commitment to having a broad appeal. Which is something Labour need to get back, badly. Labour badly needs a Kinnock figure to bring the ideologues back under control.
Click to expand...
Yup somebody has to stand up to the momentum lot who call anybody who isn't left of Trotsky a red Tory ... Meh probably easier to just leave them be and make another party the focus of the centre left ground

My gut feel is that if we do leave the EU the libs rebrand as the European democrats on a policy of rejoin and become that party and overtake labour
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,697
Location
The Zone
MadMike said:
Yeah, I can see how anything right of Marx can appear Tory. Myopia.
Click to expand...
Firstly yes this is the only correct answer.

But seriously what is the difference between this

The Orange Book aimed to pull the Lib Dems rightwards, away from what they called “soggy socialism and corporatism.” Inside, Laws called the NHS a “second-rate, centralised, state monopoly service,” and said, “private sector providers are more efficient than the NHS.” As well as arguing for “more competition within the NHS,” the authors called for more private prisons and Royal Mail privatization.
Click to expand...
and David Cameron ? And as for the New Labour type, which ones are you talking about ? The ones who have joined the libs or the ones who started their own party with other tories ? If your a ''3rd Way''/New Labour voter and are going to vote in the next election for a liberal party that spent years in government pushing austerity, won't even pretend to work with Labour Party to stop a no deal Brexit because of it's left wing leader and is now in a pact with ''Remain'' tories, what do you expect people to think of you other than at best tory light ?
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,697
Location
The Zone
Suicides rates in UK increase to highest level since 2002

https://www.theguardian.com/society...es-in-uk-increase-to-highest-level-since-2002

The rate of suicides in Britain has risen sharply to the highest level since 2002, with men accounting for three-quarters of the number of people who took their own lives last year, official figures show.

A total of 6,507 suicides were registered by coroners in the UK – 11.2 per 100,000 people – in 2018, up 11.8% on the previous year, according to the Office for National Statistics.

Ruth Sutherland, the chief executive of Samaritans, said: “It is extremely worrying that, for the first time in five years, the suicide rate in the UK has increased, with 686 more deaths than in 2017.

“Every single one of these deaths is a tragedy that devastates families, friends and communities. Whilst the overall rise has only been seen this year – and we hope it is not the start of a longer-term trend – it’s crucial to have a better understanding of why there has been such an increase.

“We know that suicide is not inevitable; it is preventable, and encouraging steps have been made to prevent suicide, but we need to look at suicide as a serious public health issue.”

According to statisticians, the rise in suicides in 2018 was largely driven by an increase among men, who took their own lives at a rate of 17.2 per 100,000, compared with 15.5 in 2017.

The overall increase was statistically significant and reversed a trend of continuous decline since 2013, according to Nick Stripe, the head of health analysis and life events at the ONS.

People aged 45 to 59 had the highest rates of suicide, at 27.1 per 100,000 for men and 9.2 per 100,000 for women. Stripe also pointed to big increases in the rate of suicide among young people.

The rate among 20- to 24-year-old males leapt 31% to 16.9 per 100,000, from 12.9 a year earlier. Among females aged 10 to 24, despite a low number of suicides overall, the rate rose to its highest level, 3.3 per 100,000.

Scotland had the highest suicide rate in Britain, with 16.1 deaths per 100,000 people (784 deaths), followed by Wales with 12.8 per 100,000 (349 deaths) and England the lowest with 10.3 deaths per 100,000 (5,021 deaths). The rates for Northern Ireland will be published later this year.

Outside Scotland, the area with the highest suicide rate for men was the north-east, with 20.4 per 100,000 taking their own lives; for women it was Wales that had the highest rate, at 6.9 per 100,000. London and the south-east had the lowest rates for both sexes.

The ONS said the exact reasons for the rise were unknown but that changes made in the last year to the way coroners record such deaths may be a factor.

In July 2018 the standard of proof used by coroners to determine whether a death was suicide was lowered from beyond reasonable doubt – the same standard as a criminal trial – to the balance of probabilities.

Stripe said: “Looking at the overall trend since the early 80s, we are still witnessing a gradual decline in the rate of suicide for the population as a whole. We will continue to monitor the recent increase, to help inform decision makers and others that are working to protect vulnerable people at risk.”
Click to expand...
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
134,029
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons

MadMike

Full Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
11,619
Location
London
Sweet Square said:
But seriously what is the difference between this and David Cameron? And as for the New Labour type, which ones are you talking about ? The ones who have joined the libs or the ones who started their own party with other tories ? If your a ''3rd Way''/New Labour voter and are going to vote in the next election for a liberal party that spent years in government pushing austerity, won't even pretend to work with Labour Party to stop a no deal Brexit because of it's left wing leader and is now in a pact with ''Remain'' tories, what do you expect people to think of you other than at best tory light ?
Click to expand...
Well, that's a lot of questions in one paragraph...

I'm talking about both of them.

I see Lib Dems ready to work with Labour to stop a no deal Brexit, that's what's happening today. They're just not ready to support a Labour govt yet, not unless left with no other option and maybe not even then. Hasn't even come to that yet (no VONC or post-GE hung parliament) so we don't know.

The difference in welfare policy between current Lib Dems and centre-right Tories is, a relatively small one. They have some divergence in other economic policies and rather large divergence in other policies. So if your interpretation of political parties is done solely on the basis of welfare economics, you wouldn't be far off labelling Lib Dems as Tory light. Your opinion on Lib Dems is predicated by the subject that you're most concerned about but it's not all-encompassing.

I'm not sure to what extent Lib Dems will enter pact with remain Tories. Sounds like made up horseshit to me that makes no sense. Because the only real remain Tories are the ones who will vote for the law tonight, anyone else who doesn't stick their neck out can't be counted on. Those who do vote for it, are likely to be deselected. Therefore their options are to either stand down, stand as independent, or join the Lib Dems. I can't see Lib Dems risking supporting "remain" MPs who didn't vote for the law, when it could deliver BoJo an outright majority and give him the license to do whatever the feck he pleases with the consent of cowardly MPs.
 
Last edited:

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,697
Location
The Zone
MadMike said:
I see Lib Dems ready to work with Labour to stop a no deal Brexit, that's what's happening today. They're just not ready to support a Labour govt yet, not unless left with no other option and maybe not even then. Hasn't even come to that yet (no VONC or post-GE hung parliament) so we don't know.
Click to expand...
?

So that will be a no.

MadMike said:
The difference in welfare policy between current Lib Dems and centre-right Tories is, a relatively small one. They have some divergence in other economic policies and rather large divergence in other policies. So if your interpretation of political parties is done solely on the basis of welfare economics, you wouldn't be far off labelling Lib Dems as Tory light. Your opinion on Lib Dems is predicated by the subject that you're most concerned about but it's not all-encompassing.
Click to expand...
It's not just welfare state - Jo Swinson on workers rights

The new Liberal Democratic leader Jo Swinson took over as employment minister in 2012, when he was promoted to energy minister. On her Lib Dem leadership campaign website Swinson claims that “as Minister for Employment Relations” she delivered “a fairer deal for workers.” She will, she says promisingly, “build an economy that puts people and the planet first.”

But as a minister, Swinson intensified the attack on workers’ rights. In 2012, Swinson was boasting about “the direct benefits to business of extending the qualifying period for unfair dismissal.” She then made things much worse: she introduced charges of up to £1,200 for the privilege of attending an employment tribunal, placing justice even further out of reach for workers.

In 2017 the Supreme Court decided Swinson’s fees scheme “prevents access to justice and is therefore unlawful.” The judges agreed with the long-running legal case brought by trade union Unison, who argued that the number of people going to tribunals had dropped by 79 percent because people were being priced out of justice. The government cancelled Swinson’s fees and agreed to pay back the £32 million wrongly charged to workers who made it through the maze.

This wasn’t even the full extent of Swinson’s contributions in office. In 2013, she said zero-hour contracts offered “helpful flexibility for the employee” and were a “useful tool for flexibility in employment” while ruling out introducing a ban. In fact, as minister, Swinson oversaw the introduction of new legislation formalizing flexible working hours. She also came out strongly against increasing the minimum wage, going so far as to suggest it should be frozen or even cut if there was another downtur
Click to expand...
Christ! She doesn't even like badgers for feck sake

Swinson is open to concerns that she sometimes seems to support climate action in principle but oppose it in practice. In 2012 she voted to create a Green Investment Bank; yet that same year she voted against making the bank help cut UK emissions in line with the law.

She voted for 2008’s Climate Change Act and wants to make companies report on climate risks. Yet in 2013 she opposed setting CO2 targets per unit of electricity and voted against closing a loophole on fossil fuel plants’ emissions standards.

Swinson claims she has “campaigned tirelessly to save our environment” since childhood and believes “the economy must work for the planet”.

Yet on key green issues like the badger cull, high-speed rail and renewables subsidies, Swinson has repeatedly voted with the government and against environmentalists.

In 2009 she founded a parliamentary group on wellbeing economics; in 2011 she voted to sell off England’s forests. And she has consistently voted against curbing the UK’s ballooning rail fares.

https://theecologist.org/2019/jul/29/jo-swinson-fracking-and-social-justice
Click to expand...
There's really no reason for the more liberal/blairite people to vote lib dem other than them finally showing their true colours(Again Blair even voted Labour in 2017).
What meaningful differences are you talking about ?
 
Last edited:

SteveJ

all-round nice guy, aka Uncle Joe Kardashian
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
62,851
esmufc07 said:
Just looking at the Labour Front bench. It's truly depressing. Not sure who the worst is. I'll go for Burgon.
Click to expand...
At least they'd give Greenwood more than ten minutes.
 

MadMike

Full Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
11,619
Location
London
Fergies Gum said:
I wouldn't read too much into these numbers.

On the final day of voter registration in 2017, over 600,000 registered and Labour people were getting giddy over that as well.
Click to expand...
Tbf they did get more votes on election day than polling was suggesting. Didn't they?
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,738
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
Fergies Gum said:
I wouldn't read too much into these numbers.

On the final day of voter registration in 2017, over 600,000 registered and Labour people were getting giddy over that as well.
Click to expand...
So we’re up to 700,000 extra voters now and they will all be young too so they will all vote labour and none of them will be dead yet :drool:
 

Buster15

Go on Didier
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
13,501
Location
Bristol
Supports
Bristol Rovers
Paul the Wolf said:
So -

what happens if the EU decline a further extension - how does the bill stop no-deal - does the UK parliament ratify the WA or does it revoke A50

what happens if the EU do accept a further extension and January comes and goes - ditto

what happens if there is a GE and Mr X or Party X wins - does the UK parliament ratify the WA or does it revoke A50

what happens if there is a referendum and Remain wins - does the UK parliament revoke A50

what happens if there is a referendum and Leave wins - does the UK ratify the WA or does it revoke A50.

What happens if both the Labour Tories continue to live in a fantasy world where there would be another withdrawal agreement- another 3 years pass?
Click to expand...
The only positive thing that I have heard came from Stephen Kinnock. He was saying that the modified WA from the joint TM and Labour discussions should be tabled to the HoC for ratification. He does accept that it may not be ideal but, and here is the problem, it is believed to be sufficiently worth parliamentary discussion providing the various factions are at last now prepared to compromise.
As we all know. The only way out of this debacle is for compromise and acceptance of a /the WA.
 

Pexbo

Winner of the 'I'm not reading that' medal.
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
68,738
Location
Brizzle
Supports
Big Days
Drifter said:
Like that. People need to be reminded of what a racist he as been.
Click to expand...
It’s a reflection on his his education rather than his upbringing. I’ve watched various programmes with his dad on recently and he comes across as such a warm and accepting person. He was on the Real Marigold Hotel and he had so much natural interest and respect for the Indian people.
 

Paul the Wolf

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
17,830
Location
France - can't win anything with Swedish turnips
Buster15 said:
The only positive thing that I have heard came from Stephen Kinnock. He was saying that the modified WA from the joint TM and Labour discussions should be tabled to the HoC for ratification. He does accept that it may not be ideal but, and here is the problem, it is believed to be sufficiently worth parliamentary discussion providing the various factions are at last now prepared to compromise.
As we all know. The only way out of this debacle is for compromise and acceptance of a /the WA.
Click to expand...
Sorry I moved my post to the Brexit thread.
Has he thought of consulting the EU because nothing is really going to change from the original one and we heard all the various unobtainable proposals early this year.
 

Abizzz

Full Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
7,640
Has there ever been a PM who became a lame duck within 3 days of parliament?
 

Drifter

American
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
68,364
Pexbo said:
It’s a reflection on his his education rather than his upbringing. I’ve watched various programmes with his dad on recently and he comes across as such a warm and accepting person. He was on the Real Marigold Hotel and he had so much natural interest and respect for the Indian people.
Click to expand...
You maybe right . But it does not excuse what he said there and what he wrote in the Telegraph about Africa.
 

DOTA

wants Amber Rudd to call him a naughty boy
Joined
Jul 3, 2012
Messages
24,504
esmufc07 said:
It just seems unbelievably low to be honest :lol:
Click to expand...
We have no culture in this country of rich people giving to charity (unless it's a tax dodge). We have a pretty big one of poor people doing so, thankfully.
 

Abizzz

Full Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
7,640
Is it far fetched to think Jo Johnson only accepted the role in government to do this to his brother? Boris' behavior can hardly be a surprise to him, so why accept in the first place?


I for one hope Jo had to convince him of his firm backing before pulling out the knife:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.