Maybe you’re not but comments like the above still display insights into the characters behind the posts.
Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
- Start date
Nope.
Wasn’t that the basis of the referendum in 2016? Brexit (whatever the version) vs remain?
Has a CoS been so political before? I swear it used to be a job no one knew your name?
Yes I do and yes they're abhorrent. However the common sense of the populace is far better placed to determine this than a moralistic cult (or "government"). Provided rhetoric doesn't directly harm or directly incite harm it should be protected.
I think if the goal is to bring the country together, as it has to be we have to have all sides agree on the options, and have a choice based approach.
Therefore maybe we should have a cross party government literally discuss all options with the EU? A Norway deal. A Canada deal. A Switzerland deal. Remain on the basis that the UK is not a net contributor. Remain with a position we veto further integration (maybe the EU wouldn't want us to remain under these circumstances). Remaining with a commitment to greater integration.
How about honestly also from the EU in terms of where they're headed? Honesty that the populace can hold them to account at a later date? You aren't considering a centralised taxation policy (one of my big fears), put it in writing. Likewise a central army, likewise enforcement of the Euro, likewise further membership.
I don't believe giving people informed choice can ever be a bar thing and at least if there were more than half a dozen options or wouldn't be so divisive. Farage might be "no deal" but his clan would be eviscerated if a Canada deal were in the table.
If we believe the leave campaign were deceitful, that's absolutely fair. However the EU have been deceitful in their power grab over the last few decades and likewise remain were deceitful in acting like Britain can fully direct the direction in which the EU has been going, a direction that the referendum shows was against UK public opinion.
Oh and another thing: given that every single supposed economic, societal and judicial benefit of BrExit has been thoroughly debunked, I’m left with the conclusion that the only reason for people to still want it is to satisfy their inherent and deep racist views.
Else please tell me what else you get?
I can’t wait to see how the Leave campaign will look this time around. It’s going to be a complete car crash.
He’s one of the more moderate and well behaved posters on here, me on the other hand..
Good post dude!
If there had been a well informed public on the original European referendum in 1975, when they were convinced it was simply a free trading agreement we wouldn’t even be in the EU in the first place.
All other treaties, ceding yet more power to the EU were done without a mandate or referendum. Gordon Brown spent ages denying the true weight of the Lisbon Treaty ... then signed it.
If politicians on both the Tory Party and Labour since 1975 had been honest about Europe we wouldn’t even be having this debate. We wouldn’t have entered a more centralised Europe in a million years!
Why has the European issue got anything to do with race? This is such a ridiculous and lazy thing to assume. Even the issue of immigration, which was admittedly crassly used by UKIP, isn’t solely based around issues of racism believe it or not.
The EU actually consist of 27 independent member states, it’s not some kind of sinister evil organization trying to pull a quick one over the UK. One of the big problems the UK had is the complete ignorance about the EU amongst its population, as is proven by your post. It’s also ironic that known & proven dishonest liars like Farrage & Boris accuse the EU of being dishonest. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
From a Dutch perspective I can assure there is currently zilch public support for, ie, a centralized taxation policy and if it were to be put on the table then the Dutch public will demand to leave the EU. That’s the reality.
I’m not saying the EU is perfect, but if you are going to criticize the EU at least use facts rather than made up scaremongering.
So I’m waiting for you to explain what the benefit of BrExit is beyond satisfying xenophobes. Go on, tell me.
What has not wanting to be a part of a centralised Europe heading full speed into complete political and fiscal unification and being under the jurisdiction of the ECJ got to do with satisfying xenophobic beliefs? Some people just want independence, is that not ok? Has it got to be because of racism and xenophobia?
And you’re also assuming I’m a brexiteer too.
Rather than claiming assumption. Why don't you state whether you are a brexiteer or not. Otherwise it's a pointless sentence.
The EU is not heading full speed ahead into complete political & fiscal unity because there simply isn’t enough public support for that amongst the vast majority of the member states. In fact if anything, especially since the UK referendum, such ideas have been shelved for the time being at least because of the concern more countries might follow the UK’s direction. If you are going to be anti EU then at least do so for the right reasons, such as because of the EU’s bloated bureaucracy or neo-liberal policies.
Also @unchanged_lineup sorry it was on our regional news in the North West so I'm unsure how you'd be able to watch it outside of this region.
There's small clips on the BBC site, but i don't think it shows the moment she brought up him lying about there being no media in the hospital and the £350m to the NHS on the side of the bus lies.
If I find it i'll link it on here.
You’re welcome to. But I decline. I won’t defend his rights to anything.
Full political and fiscal union is undoubtedly the endgame, or certainly the goal, whatever public support is. Full speed or not and there’s no point in thinking otherwise, as you said, shelved for the time being.
And I’m not anti EU at all. I’m just of the opinion that the UK’s integration since 1975 has been so poorly and dishonestly managed it’s almost criminal and has ensured we end up with the almost irreparable division we’re all now taking about. There should have been referendums agreeing or disagreeing to each treaty signed, this would have ensured greater buy in or not from the public. A proper mandate for each stage of European integration was needed for something as big as this.
Don't use straw man arguments. It's disruptive to a constructive debate.
I'd like to know what specific lies I've told?
I believe all governments and political institutions are inherently but often unknowingly corrupt and even by their good intentions, by definition they harm the populace.
I did not say that 27 nations wanted to shaft the UK... Neither did I say that Boris/Farage, or the EU for that matter aren't blatant liars... Of course they are. If lying assists your cause to a greater degree than telling the truth hurts you cause, then of course you'll like.
This is why all government policy is inherently nonsense. Corbyn isn't going to seize private assets and Boris isn't going to increase the 40% tax rate to £80k. They're both liars. It's our job to highlight and disseminate these lies, rather than back them.
In terms of public support for EU policies generally the larger the organisation the less they care about support. This has been the case in terms of alleged austerity (apparently unpopular yet allegedly implemented)... This has been the case with enforcing sanctions on Greece... This has been the case with implementation of the Euro.
Every country was not given a referendum on each EU treaty. Every country was not given a referendum on adopting the Euro. Every country was not given a referendum on even joining the block.
The problem with block democracy is that it dilutes democracy and anything that dilutes democracy is dangerous. As a society we accept that huge monopolies are generally bad for business... But when our moralistic overlords state that we can't buy Brazilian beef without tariffs we think they're doing it for our own good? Bollocks.
Society can decide whether chlorinated chicken or Brazilian beef aren't welcomed or shouldn't be bought, not politicians with vested interests. Tesco wouldn't stock it if it were harmful (they'd soon go bust) and I wouldn't buy it if it were harmful. Preventing poor people from having cheap food and preventing poor nations from getting wealthier by preventing them from entering our markets for protectionist purposes is morally bankrupt (it's also not a coincidence that poor African people are not allowed in the club
and rich white people are)
The EU and the UK government is similarly morally bankrupt. Wanting to end one isn't supporting the other.
Then please don't complain if and when you aren't aloud to protest a just cause because the government deem what you're protesting "unpalatable" and therefore imprison all who take your stance.
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I voted remain. I work for a multinational company that starts with the word Euro
I do however have friends (educated, some liberal and not one of them racist) who voted leave and we’ve spent many nights drinking and talking about Brexit, I have to say I get where they’re coming from and think the vote should be respected.
This is only relevant if sammsky is PM at the time.
EDIT - Which I'm not wholly opposed to. Providing he doesn't attempt to take control over the England cricket team.
Cheers man.
You think forcing through the furthest right of the UK's interpretation of the result of that referendum (and let's not get into the stupidity of calling an ill defined binary vote on such a complex and emotive matter in the first place) will result in LESS division than going back to the people to ratify (or not) the most significant constitutional change in 40 years? What are you man smoking (sic)?
P.s. Was man smoking some sort of cryptic blowjob reference that I'm too old to get?
My view is increasingly that I want Boris gone as PM, despite my fears this could play in to his hands. I'm not comfortable with allowing him to ever increase the threat of far right terrorism, from the position of Prime Minister. I think removing him from his position, right now, is probably the best option we have.
So do you think that the Swiss and Norwegians, for example, are in every single possible way worse off than us?
Absolute nonsense. The second we as a society accept censorship in the name of a supposed greater good that is enacted by any politician; we accept it both ways.
For every person saying Boris should be unable to say what he said there will be a person saying Corbyn should be censored on any supposed anti-Israel rhetoric.
If you don't like what he said, post about it here. Talk about it with your friends. Vote him out as a result. Absolutely do not cry "ban"
We are all just talking about different things here. I think no deal would be madness and I don’t want it at all.
But I do think we have to leave the EU. The only power a man has is a vote. If you keep sending people back to the polls because you don’t like the result then what’s the point in anything?
But they're not an island with a population 64m+people situated off the coast of mainland Europe, they have borders because they are not in the EUCU but are in the EEA and/or EFTA but can cope with having border controls.
But we've been through this hundreds of times.
Yet you will defend Boris Johnsons strawman arguments to the death? Will you make your mind up?
Absolute nonsense.
That’s spot on.
I'm not trying to ban you from saying them. I'm saying your straw man arguments are disruptive to a positive debate, exactly as Bojo's are.
You're right - we should set up a government department with a political persuasion that you agree with and have them determine what's acceptable and unacceptable.
They should throw people in prison who upset people's sensibilities and repress debate accordingly.
Fair enough. I could also see the benefits of leaving, with a deal though. But I leaned towards remain due to the extreme right hijacking the leave campaign (I could never endorse their xenophobic strategy) and also economic reasons.I voted remain. I work for a multinational company that starts with the word Euro
I do however have friends (educated, some liberal and not one of them racist) who voted leave and we’ve spent many nights drinking and talking about Brexit, I have to say I get where they’re coming from and think the vote should be respected.
What Johnson and the Tories have done is enact a cynical election strategy of confrontation, disrespect, division and increased anger in order for them to cling onto power. I hope people can see that this is actually a much bigger threat to the UK than the EU!
didn't answer the question. Thought so. Just like your boy Boris. You know why? Because you can't and you know it. Just own up to it.
That'd be great but feels unlikely so for now I'll settle for dreaming of a world where people agree no one should continue being Prime Minister when they're using their ability to fire up right wing extremists as a threat to their political opponents.
Funnily enough, this looks like a strawman argument.
Name some equivalent Corbyn anti-Israel rhetoric. With links please.
Oh shut up you child. Nobody likes Johnson. Go back to your jet fuel doesn’t melt steel beams thread.
Is that the best you've got? Really? Save your nonsense hyperbole for all your Brexiter pals - they fell for the lies of the Leave campaign so they might bite.
And anyways, don't tell me you actually think that we all have 'free speech'. Please!
Also allowed not aloud.
So it’s absolutely impossible in every way shape or form for us to go the EFTA route or something similar?
Getting aggressive just like BJ, because you cant argue your point? Oh so predictable.