I'd delegate that to people like @JohnnyKills and yourself. Consider yourselves Minister and secretary in my future cabinet!Westminster Politics
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I'd delegate that to people like @JohnnyKills and yourself. Consider yourselves Minister and secretary in my future cabinet!No but what about the borders and if you're still in the EEA or EFTA and have to be in the EUCU to resolve NI plus avoiding the chaos the borders will cause - what is the point of leaving?
Except the main mechanism to remove him would just cause a general election and quite possibly return him to office for 5 years, not to mention maybe causing a no-deal Brexit in the process.
It’s the softest way imaginable and will placate many people. That’s the whole point.
The second the referendum was lost all efforts should’ve gone into finding a solution like this instead of spending 3 years wailing about Russian bots and whatever. Now we are staring down the barrel of no deal
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As I said, I'm aware of the risk.
It doesn't have to cause an instant general election, obviously. If done remotely properly it would remove the threat of no deal, instantly, via an interim government.
After that of course we have to have an election. I'd rather take my chances with that than continue as is. I think it's almost inevitable that we're facing another tragedy soon, the way things are going.
Thanks mate. Strong and stable.
Thankfully the grown ups won’t allow BJ and his ilk to destroy this country.
It may be the softest option but you'd be the same as now without representation in any of the EU bodies. I don't see that many people will be placated when reality hits them of what they've done or has happened.
I don't know how you placate such opposing views and I don't see this going away whether the UK Leaves or Remains.
I can't think of anything more depressing than the electorate, after watching his first months in office and looking at his ignominious past, returning him to power with a majority. He's not only acting deplorably, he is doing it with a hearty dose of incompetence. I'd begrudgingly see the appeal in him if he at least had an ounce of political nous to him. As it stands, I despair that any reasonable minded person could vote for him.
But you wouldn’t have to integrate further and further with all the political motives that come with it.
Anyway, let’s pretend your life depends on creating an option to leave the EU. What would be your top workable solutions for doing so?
I would just like to see an ounce of compromise in these brexit threads. You obviously know your stuff more than most so play devils advocate for a change
@finneh @Volumiza a serious debate should have been held during the referendum and not some idiotic dishonest campaign like that was held by the leave mob.
The fact is that the electorate of each EU country gets to vote for their politicians who govern for them. It has been clear to the voters what they have been intending to do in respect of the EU and even now the electorate of each EU member state can vote for a political party who wants out of the EU. In other words, Brussels is no more or less democratic than Westminster. Well actually, at least most EU member states have proportional representation in their country so I wouldn’t want to say the EU is quite as undemocratic as that...
I’d agree that some things are wrong in the EU. For example, it’s ridiculous that we poison our farmland after every harvest or allow ourselves to be lobbied (some say bribed) and have our policies influenced by large profit making industries whose only interest is greed.
On the other hand, what’s the alternative? Somehow I can’t see the likes of a Farrage or Boris being champions of social justice and sustainable technologies. To think Britain will be better off outside the EU is absurd. The EU has done so much good for society in general. One of the main successes of the EU for example is its protecting of the rights & safety of its citizens, whether that’s been in food or social justice for example. It has also coincided with the longest period of peace in European history. Never has there been such little conflict in Europe probably since civilization first arrived in Europe. (Can you imagine what’s going to happen with the fisheries if there’s a no deal Brexit?!)
I could go on all night about examples of where the EU benefits us all. If the UK leaves the EU without a deal and without much of it’s citizens rights & protections guaranteed then the UK population will be left to the mercy of the types of leaders like Farrage & Boris Johnson. I know what I feel more happy with, do you?
The fact is that the electorate of each EU country gets to vote for their politicians who govern for them. It has been clear to the voters what they have been intending to do in respect of the EU and even now the electorate of each EU member state can vote for a political party who wants out of the EU. In other words, Brussels is no more or less democratic than Westminster. Well actually, at least most EU member states have proportional representation in their country so I wouldn’t want to say the EU is quite as undemocratic as that...
I’d agree that some things are wrong in the EU. For example, it’s ridiculous that we poison our farmland after every harvest or allow ourselves to be lobbied (some say bribed) and have our policies influenced by large profit making industries whose only interest is greed.
On the other hand, what’s the alternative? Somehow I can’t see the likes of a Farrage or Boris being champions of social justice and sustainable technologies. To think Britain will be better off outside the EU is absurd. The EU has done so much good for society in general. One of the main successes of the EU for example is its protecting of the rights & safety of its citizens, whether that’s been in food or social justice for example. It has also coincided with the longest period of peace in European history. Never has there been such little conflict in Europe probably since civilization first arrived in Europe. (Can you imagine what’s going to happen with the fisheries if there’s a no deal Brexit?!)
I could go on all night about examples of where the EU benefits us all. If the UK leaves the EU without a deal and without much of it’s citizens rights & protections guaranteed then the UK population will be left to the mercy of the types of leaders like Farrage & Boris Johnson. I know what I feel more happy with, do you?
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I've been trying to think of one solution for three years but if you had to say the UK has left the EU this is the best solution -
but have combined the thinking that I don't think many people would accept this.- - and I mean both Remain and Leave, if not immediately , after a short amount of time.
I don't see any way how the UK can leave the customs union. (The Irish border is an added complication that other countries wouldn't have to solve)
I've said a few times - the genie's out of the bottle and I don't see a way of putting it back in.
Have a feeling Boris will find a way to crash out next month.
It has been the best option since day 1 for me and something similar nearly passed through the commons on a couple of occasions. The no deal lunatics wouldn’t like it but they’re heavily outnumbered and even the most stubborn remainers would have to just grow up.
After that you can factually state you’re out of the EU and Brexit fatigue would do the rest.
Except for the fact that, what we would be left with is clearly worse than what we have now.
I'd like you to read these 2 articles and then explain to me again exactly why I should be prepared to die, to defend BJ's right to say what he wants. let's see what you've got.
'Abuse is virtually constant': female MPs speak about the threats they face
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-female-mps-speak-about-the-threats-they-face
Daughter of Yvette Cooper speaks of fear for her mother's safety
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-cooper-speaks-of-fear-for-her-mothers-safety
@finneh waiting for your response .....
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But maybe not what we would be stuck with in the future, depending on how you see things panning out in the EU
This is a bad argument. If things change markedly in the future, such that it affects UK citizens' lives, then more may want to leave. It's not a good reason to leave now.
As a few other people have mentioned it could be done with listing your preferences in order and what out a consensus from there.
Definitely mate a referendum could ironically get us out of the mess the first miss handled referendum got us into.
The country is being held hostage by right wing extremists and disaster capitalists pulling Boris's strings and leading us down a dangerous path. There needs to be some compromise to sort this mess out.
Well yeah thats a good point, not sure what the options would be exactly beyond remain, leave with a deal May's/Another or crash out.
Not everyone's going to be 100% happy but leaving with a deal is at least less damaging and it could possibly satisfy most people.
I don’t think it is a bad argument. It will only become harder to leave as time goes on. If we don’t leave now I’m sure there will quickly be some new treaties signed (which we don’t get a vote on) that make leaving virtually impossible
no it isn't, a vote of no confidence only leads to a GE if no other government (such as a Lab/LD/SNP/IND coalition under Harman or Clarke) can command the confidence of the house within 14 days. The game at the moment is to force Johnson to extend thereby weakening him severely, splitting the Brexit vote more equally between Farage and Johnson and giving a remain alliance a route to a GE majority (I don't think Labour or the Lib Dems can realistically get a majority outright without a cooperation agreement between themselves and the Greens, which they've said they won't do). If it comes to it, i.e. Johnson somehow manages to get around the Benn Act, this will happen to stop a no deal on the 31st.
Is there anyway to end up with better than we have now? Even cancelling brexit just maintains the status quo.
And there’s the rub Stevoc. EVERYBODY needs to realise NOBODY is going to get exactly what they want. It is called compromise and where the Anti Brexit brigade and the ERG fanatics are both going badly wrong.
But, and don’t throw rotten tomatoes at me here, I have to negotiate some pretty hard nosed people in my work and on this point I actually agree with Boris. The ‘Surrender bill’ as he combatively puts it has / will severely hamper our efforts to actually get a deal.
Both the UK and the EU know leaving with a deal is better ... for both sides.
However the EU would rather we not leave and can currently sit back and watch us tear ourselves apart and if we’ve now got legislation that stops no deal then they can play a high stakes game, almost rolling the dice that a) we get another extension and spend more time tearing ourselves apart and then eventually stay in or b) stay in completely. It’s a win / win for them.
Taking no deal off the table completely hamstrings negotiations. I know a lot of you won’t agree with that because it is Boris’s stance but the reality is I would never even think about entering into a negotiation knowing the other party knows I have to take what they offer. It’s ridiculous. I have to be able to walk away and take my business elsewhere to ensure I have a chance of getting the best deal possible. That’s not politics, it’s business.
And my thoughts are, even if we did leave without a deal, the chaos could be so bad for BOTH sides with the amount of trade we do that a deal would appear very, very quickly.
feck me, utter turbomongs like this are a valid reason for iq testing before being allowed to vote!I just have to post this
Some good tory parroting there.
This isn't a business deal and we're not haggling. If the remaining issue was the amount of the divorce bill you'd maybe have a point.
The EU are laying out what they need to maintain the single market and the GFA. These are not negotiating points they are fundamentals that have to be upheld.
If we follow your point the only situation where they could do as you say is to turn down a reasonable alternative arrangement, given they've not received one yet do you actually think the Benn bill is preventing a deal? Really?
In the last few days we've had the prime ministers sister say Boris may be being influenced by big money, his adviser saying do as we say if you don't want death threats, a Tory MP say they'll abolish the supreme court because they don't like it's judgement and now Farage at a rally saying they're coming after the pen pushers at whitehall.
The descent towards the breakdown of this country continues.
The descent towards the breakdown of this country continues.
Reducing the people working on a deal and not really putting any effort in will have a more damaging effect. Boris doesn't want a deal.
This might be fine if Johnson was in earnest working on actually getting a deal. Yet all the signs are that he isn't beyond fig leaf gestures. Which rather undermines the argument that taking no deal off the table will hamstring those negotiations.
Also, part of negotiating is ensuring that you are aiming tor a realistic, plausible outcome. The UK are demanding the backstop be removed with no alternative being put in its place. Even if these attempts at negotiating were genuine (which they don't appear to be) they would have no chance of being succesful regardless.
I wont take that as a complement Smores
This is absolutely a business deal, sorry Smores, I don't agree.
And I agree with that, fair enough and I have already stated that I think the best possible outcome is to leave and stay in a customs union, that is the way both parties get (almost) what they want. It is the best compromise, and not Tory Parroting. Just because I agree with some Tory sentiments does not make me a Tory.
Yes I do potentially Smores but that is not to say that isn't a huge failing of successive PM's that a viable alternative hasn't been offered. This take sme back to an earlier post of mine, both sides need to calm the heck down and curb their language and work towards a viable agreement.
I cant help but feel that given how things are going that we might end up with Mays deal presented back to the house with the cross party additions that were agreed (possibly with the backstop called something else but essentially unchanged) and although 30 or so ERG types might reject it that there might be enough opposition MP's to get it over the line to essentially avoid disruption / riots / civil war
Followed by a confidence motion and an immediate election (where the conservatives stand on WTO at the end of the transition period, the liberals stand on rejoining and labour pretend brexit is finished and we have another 2 years of constant political fighting through the transition phase about what we are transitioning to)
Followed by a confidence motion and an immediate election (where the conservatives stand on WTO at the end of the transition period, the liberals stand on rejoining and labour pretend brexit is finished and we have another 2 years of constant political fighting through the transition phase about what we are transitioning to)
Yes and it's worrying. Both sides of the house mirror society, everyone (left and right) has withdrawn to such extreme sides of their own narative that the gaping hole in the middle is like a wasteland. Who is actually trying to sort this out? Not the Tories, Nor Labour, Nor the Lib Dems or the SNP.
Is the HoC reflecting society or is society reflecting the HoC?
I don't think you're far off the mark here Sun_Tzu. My worry is the ERG and the Lib Dems aren't actually helping much with their positions, only dividing further.
Johnson and his 'combative' language (a very tame way to describe his dangerous divide and rule rhetoric) is not contributing to a compromise. Swinsons revoke A50 is also not.
Yet Labour's compromise of a second referendum and waiting to decide which way to campaign gets criticised as sitting on the fence. Do you support that compromise?
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There is absolutely no evidence to support this assumption - only a British citizen believing that because their politicians are consistently sneaky and underhanded, then so to will be the politicians of the other EU members.
As for this argument about the Benn Act scuttling any chance of negotiations, you are refusing to accept what is and had always been clear. While Britain may be playing chicken with the EU, the EU are not and have been honest and explicit in what they will and won't accept.
The EU would obviously prefer Britain doesn't leave or that it leaves with a deal, but not to the extent that they will compromise on any of the four pillars or on the border in Ireland. Their obligation to the remaining members outweighs any obligation to Britain - there isn't some secret backdown the EU are keeping until the last moment because a no deal brexit while damaging, is less damaging to the Union than capitulating to the demands of a departing bully.
Theresa May didn't negotiate a bad deal, she negotiated the best deal possible from a shaky position. Johnson nor nobody else is going to negotiate a better one. May at least had the benefit of negotiating from a position of some small integrity - the actions of Boris, Cummings, Mogg and co. over the last few weeks and months have served only to weaken the negotiating position, not strengthen it.
Any argument that Britain can be trusted to work on future solutions for say, the border issue, is now laughable. The image of a trustworthy Britain who will thrive in negotiating trade deals after a no deal brexit disappeared when Boris attempted and failed his parliamentary coup.
I've seen talk of seeing an ounce of compromise from Remainers but where is this compromise on the Leavers side?
From the beginning of this process, all I have seen from Leavers is "what we need", "what we deserve", "what's not fair on us". What about Britain's obligations and responsibilities? Your history of foreign policy means you have obligations outside your own shores - the history of British occupation of Ireland means you cannot just ignore your responsibilities in Northern Ireland and the actions of your politicians over the last 5 years means vague and vapid promises of a future solution cannot reasonably be trusted.
You are all afraid of a backstop which will hold you into obligations that you yourselves signed up to, but give not two shits about the turmoil and instability your actions will result in for a region that your country is responsible for destabilising in the first place.
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Will be interesting now if parties start shifting to a VonC. I just don't see where Corbyn gets the support of the House from if this is the route they go down. Swinson has already said she won't support it and many of the now independent former Tory MPs have said they wouldn't support putting Corbyn into No. 10.
Labour + SNP = 282 seats.
You don't think Boris is the ERG's puppet / mouthpiece right now? One and the same.
Edit: Combative is the word I'd use, yes.
True. You got in before my significant edit. I shouldn't try to discuss while working. Multi tasking is obviously not my forte.
The EU is not a business it may represent some but they are not negotiating in that capacity. I deal with the FCA a fair bit or other regulatory bodies and we end up comparable situation, we work with the regulators to form our position and we come up with solutions or end up in an unfavourable situation. Oddly my company does not wait until the last moment and threaten to break the law unless they give us a deal. Not every negotiation is some hard nosed board room stand off.
Care to give me a simple scenario of how the Benn act has in any way has prevented a deal? Something concrete, what could the EU have done that they may not have done because the legislation