Westminster Politics

[Virgil]

If you want to know the answer to a problem you can't understand yourself the best thing to do is go to someone who did understand the problem and had the answer right.This guy makes a lot of sense to me. He predicted what has just happened and is talking a about solutions for Labour, you won't like them though.

What an excellent link and a telling contribution. Such a shame that it is likely to fall on deaf ears To those who should take heed of it. Mind you what do I know given that I am obviously one of those unintelligent racists who was unable to agree with the views of the Labour Party evangelists.

 

[T00lsh3d]

If you want to know the answer to a problem you can't understand yourself the best thing to do is go to someone who did understand the problem and had the answer right.This guy makes a lot of sense to me. He predicted what has just happened and is talking a about solutions for Labour, you won't like them though.

Good watch, thanks for posting

 

[Classical Mechanic]

If you want to know the answer to a problem you can't understand yourself the best thing to do is go to someone who did understand the problem and had the answer right.This guy makes a lot of sense to me. He predicted what has just happened and is talking a about solutions for Labour, you won't like them though.

Naturally I enjoyed that as his conclusions are pretty much exactly where I have arrived since 2016! I never thought that Leave would win from the outset so I was disconnected from the reality on the ground, even where I lived, but I think that you have to accept a slap in the face and reassess. One thing that struck me was the reaction of Miliband's team to his presentation compared with Lynton Crosby. The hard left faction of the Labour just doesn't have good enough talent in it at any level. Politicians like Blair and Johnson see clearly and surround themselves with the best people whilst the hard left surround themselves with sycophants and try to superimpose a political ideology onto the electorate instead of forming one that fits round it enough to win an election.

I saw this on the Triggernometry website and found it interesting. The initial voting demographic breakdown on the election stated that Corbyn lost minority voters at the same rate as white voters, although starting from a higher percentage total. I wonder if this was part of the reason why.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Naturally I enjoyed that as his conclusions are pretty much exactly where I have arrived since 2016! I never thought that Leave would win from the outset so I was disconnected from the reality on the ground, even where I lived, but I think that you have to accept a slap in the face and reassess. One thing that struck me was the reaction of Miliband's team to his presentation compared with Lynton Crosby. The hard left faction of the Labour just doesn't have good enough talent in it at any level. Politicians like Blair and Johnson see clearly and surround themselves with the best people whilst the hard left surround themselves with sycophants and try to superimpose a political ideology onto the electorate instead of forming one that fits round it enough to win an election.

I saw this on the Triggernometry website and found it interesting. The initial voting demographic breakdown on the election stated that Corbyn lost minority voters at the same rate as white voters, although starting from a higher percentage total. I wonder if this was part of the reason why.

I agree and thought that part was telling also. The scary part is when they discuss what the conservatives will do with their majority and what is at stake. I can see Labour doubling down on this loss. There is a lot of casual analysis on this board and its nice to see the superficiality of it exposed. Boris is Trump, lets wait for the old people to die, patriot equals racist etc etc.

The point at which people are more likely to vote conservative than Labour is 34 years old. Labour lose 6 percent of their vote and the conservatives grow 8 percent for each decade people are older from 34 up. What are Labour going to do about that? if they are so intelligent and everyone else is so thick why are they being shown up election after election by idiots?

 

[Smores]

I agree and thought that part was telling also. The scary part is when they discuss what the conservatives will do with their majority and what is at stake. I can see Labour doubling down on this loss. There is a lot of casual analysis on this board and its nice to see the superficiality of it exposed. Boris is Trump, lets wait for the old people to die, patriot equals racist etc etc.

The point at which people are more likely to vote conservative than Labour is 34 years old. Labour lose 6 percent of their vote and the conservatives grow 8 percent for each decade people are older from 34 up. What are Labour going to do about that? if they are so intelligent and everyone else is so thick why are they being shown up election after election by idiots?

It's not 34 at all. It was 39 in the last GE and 47 prior to that but you have to go much higher towards age 50 up for the tipping point of more likely to vote right wing over left wing.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

34 came from a poll in the new statesmen 2017, it stuck in my mind as an illustration of the problem. Either way, talking about 65 year olds when the problem starts at 39 is missing the point. You can't wait for them all to die and the cross over age is dropping.

 

[Sweet Square]

• Embrace British culture - a good thing in and of itself. Not sure if it needs much explaining but British culture is largely positive and something I would hope people in Britain can appreciate without too much controversy.
• Embrace British national identity and pride - find a unifying vision for the country, where we continue to broaden what it means to be British and forge a collective ambition for us all. I would say it's a very good thing, if done right by a skilled politician.

But who's identity and pride is being embraced(Soz but there going to be lots of this) ? Because its seems when the identity of anyone who isn't a white British person, its ''dividing the working class'' or when Britain history of colonialism is up for discussion suddenly its ''identity politics''. If embracing national identity excludes history white British people find embarrassing to talk about(Or really the history that white liberals think will scare people away)then its certainly not a unifying vision.

As for getting a skilled politician, Obama was the best political orator in my life time, he's whole schtick was about creating a new image of America -

"Americans who sent a message to the world that we have never been just a collection of individuals or a collection of red states and blue states. We are, and always will be, the United States of America.".

Now what followed this, not a new progressive form of what it means to be an American but Donald Trump. People respond to changes in their material conditions, simply pumping out empty nationalistic talking points is useless. And to really get to point Britain is still a capitalist country, a collective ambition is nothing more than fantasy. How can the worker at Amazon trying to organise a union and the middle management trying their best to make sure this doesn't happen, unite ? How can both find a unifying vision for the country when they have different material interest in the way the British economy is structured ?

• Reassure people on immigration, multiculturalism and crime - Reassuring people about the things that worry or scare them is surely a good thing? 'Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime' was clever framing by New Labour, which appealed across the political spectrum and largely neutralised the issue. I'm sure a similar 'tackle the symptom and the cause' thing can be found for immigration.

But again who are we reassuring ?

While yes it could be argue that it was clever political framing by New Labour, the end result had real effects - Opening of detention centres, Prevent(Labour overall embrace of war on terror), attacks on Roma people, Windrush scandal was also under New Labour watch, anti immigration speeches on the white cliffs of dover, ''British Jobs For British People'', Asbos, it was under a New Labour government that the BNP won 2 eu election seats.

Here's a old New Labour leaflet -

''I know that people here are worried about fraudulent asylum claims and illegal immigration. Yet the Lib Dems ignore what people say. They ignore what local people really want. The Lib Dems want to keep giving welfare benefits to failed asylum seekers. They voted for this in parliament on 1 March 2004. They want your money, and mine, to go to failed asylum seekers.”

To quote Hall again -

For Hall, it was during the New Labour years that neoliberal, free-market fundamentalism finally became “common sense”. “I would say that New Labour come closer to institutionalising neoliberalism as a social and political form than Thatcher did. She destroyed everything in order to have a flat plane on which to build, but there was serious opposition and struggle. Thatcherism was a slash-and-burn strategy. With Blair, the language became more adaptive; it found ways of presenting itself to Labour supporters as well.”

https://jacobinmag.com/2012/09/mad-dogs-and-englishmen-stuart-hall-on-englishness/

There will be now push from the labour right(And the ‘’centre left’', sadly) for something similar after seeing what Boris has achieved but the end result will be to make the anti immigration, racist and xenophobia arguments of today, the ''common sense'' of tomorrow.

• Abandon identity politics - Ok, I accept this is a controversial one, and I have heard it said that if you aren't in the straight, white, male majority, 'identity politics' is just politics. However, I do think making niche issues overly prominent in a campaign is going to be a negative, in general. Identity politics often seems to highlight the things that divide us, rather than the many, many things we have in common. The problems facing the poor and the middle class are largely unifying, across racial, gender and geographic lines. I often worry that identity politics is what has divided the working class and turned us on each other.

I'm still have no idea what you by identity politics. Since you've talked about diving people, I'm just going to guess you mean intersectionality, which from the very basic stuff I know, it's another form of analysis, it ‘’divides'' people in an attempt to see how society functions. The issues a black working class straight women faces are going to be different than a white gay working class man faces. Intersectionality isn't a political program but a tool to understand society.

Now having said of all this, the labour policy of teaching school children about the British Empire(Which seems be the focus in this thread)isn't intersection politics rather simple educational policy, the party doesn’t put forward any type of intersectionality politics(Sadly), Labour wanted 10,000 more police officers on the streets and there wasn’t a discussion about how this would effect parts of the working class.

As for the divided in the working class I would put that down to

.Neoliberalism destroying the unions and turning financial capital into the dominate form in Britain(Working Class people being able to buy their council houses was a genius move by Thatcher).

.Globalisation moving production to the global south

.The long term changes in class(The 70 year white former miner who owns his home, isn’t the working class of the 21st century).

.The effects of capitalist realism.

. Mass alienation in these small towns causing them to fall behind.

The final point I want to make is that my post was primarily a discussion on how to frame the Labour Party and present it to the public. It was not really about the policies we might implement. I'm up for a nerdy policy discussion at some point, as I think we're missing loads of uncontroversial ways to help improve people's lives and their economic situation, without being seen as the 'scary socialists' by advocating for waves of nationalisations.

This will happened to any left leader. Unless the next Labour leader is the godfather to the Murdochs, then the press will always present the party as a bunch of ''scary socialists''. And for me this sums up the issue with the centre left, they just want some flag waving in the hopes it will trick a few northerns to vote Labour.

Btw you don't have to reply back to any of this.

 

[MadMike]

If you want to know the answer to a problem you can't understand yourself the best thing to do is go to someone who did understand the problem and had the answer right.This guy makes a lot of sense to me. He predicted what has just happened and is talking a about solutions for Labour, you won't like them though.

Bit difficult to watch with how annoying the hosts are. They just snicker, giggle and facepalm their way through this interview.

Their guest has some excellent points though. The so called culture war seems more important to the majority of the electorate than economics. Not just in the minds of British voters alone, but everywhere else in the West too based on recent evidence. And conservative, right-wing parties are winning that war. We might hate that (me included here), but it is what it is.

The Labour heartlands have proven to be more socially conservative than economically socialist, when faced with choosing between the two. Not sure what Labour can do, it's not an easy decision for them either way. Do they go the "Blue Labour" way of becoming more socially conservative but economically socialist in hope of recupturing the seats lost? That would be abandoning voters who weigh social liberalism higher than economic socialism to the Lib Dems. And were that even possible for them to do, would it deliver in the FPTP system or just hand the Tories another win come next election? Can they continue to straddle both and hope a more inspired leader would make all the difference?

 

[NWRed]

If you want to know the answer to a problem you can't understand yourself the best thing to do is go to someone who did understand the problem and had the answer right.This guy makes a lot of sense to me. He predicted what has just happened and is talking a about solutions for Labour, you won't like them though.

Can someone explain the difference between 'culturally insecure' and 'racist as feck'? As someone who lives in a Brexit voting area and doesn't share their 'cultural insecurity' I know the vocuabulary of cultural insecurity and racism are pretty much indistinguishable, so what are the actual differences?

 

[T00lsh3d]

Bit difficult to watch with how annoying the hosts are. They just snicker, giggle and facepalm their way through this interview.

Their guest has some excellent points though. The so called culture war seems more important to the majority of the electorate than economics. Not just in the minds of British voters alone, but everywhere else in the West too based on recent evidence. And conservative, right-wing parties are winning that war. We might hate that (me included here), but it is what it is.

The Labour heartlands have proven to be more socially conservative than economically socialist, when faced with choosing between the two. Not sure what Labour can do, it's not an easy decision for them either way. Do they go the "Blue Labour" way of becoming more socially conservative but economically socialist in hope of recupturing the seats lost? That would be abandoning voters who weigh social liberalism higher than economic socialism to the Lib Dems. And were that even possible for them to do, would it deliver in the FPTP system or just hand the Tories another win come next election? Can they continue to straddle both and hope a more inspired leader would make all the difference?

You would think that the opportunity would come in the aftermath of brexit, which we all assume will bring economic stagnation with it, if they can get their own house in order. It’s going to depend on the leader though, if it’s another momentum candidate then no.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Can someone explain the difference between 'culturally insecure' and 'racist as feck'? As someone who lives in a Brexit voting area and doesn't share their 'cultural insecurity' I know the vocuabulary of cultural insecurity and racism are pretty much indistinguishable, so what are the actual differences?

There is another video with the same guy on that channel from a year or so ago where he is posed that question.

 

[NWRed]

There is another video with the same guy on that channel from a year or so ago where he is posed that question.

Have you got a link?

I mean racism is essentially an intolerance to difference and I don't see how 'cultural insecurity' is any different, apart from having a more palatable label.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Have you got a link?

I mean racism is essentially an intolerance to difference and I don't see how 'cultural insecurity' is any different, apart from having a more palatable label.

 

[MadMike]

Can someone explain the difference between 'culturally insecure' and 'racist as feck'? As someone who lives in a Brexit voting area and doesn't share their 'cultural insecurity' I know the vocuabulary of cultural insecurity and racism are pretty much indistinguishable, so what are the actual differences?

I mean racism is essentially an intolerance to difference and I don't see how 'cultural insecurity' is any different, apart from having a more palatable label.

As a liberal myself, I'm always amazed that people are ready to throw the racist card at anyone that dares suggest that integration, assimilation and societal cohesion might be stretched by unprecedented levels of immigration. It's not a good look and it only ends up stiffening the back of those you throw the accusation to.

To get to your question, are there racists among those socially conservative traditionalists? Sure plenty. In fact, racists come almost exclusively from that group. Are they all racist by default? No. And racism is indeed a form of intolerance to difference, but not all intolerance to difference is racism. Much like every Ford Focus is a car but not every car is a Ford Focus.

In the broader sense I see it as a spectrum of intolerance to change. Traditionalists can get upset by religious change, demographic change, linguistic change, feminism, political correctness, having to call people by their preferred pronouns etc. etc. Or, to be it bluntly, anything that has changed from the time they were kids. It can be any or all of things. But generally, to borrow a financial/engineering term, the bigger the delta (rate of change) the bigger the backlash, and it's never been greater. The more things rapidly change, the more out-of-place some people feel. The information/social media age compounded by mass immigration has brought about a lot of rapid change for a lot of people.

And those (conservativism, traditionalism and resistance to change) are not privileges of white men alone. Most ethnic minorities are even more conservative and traditionalist in a lot of the aforementioned issues. And exhibit similar traits in the countries where they form the majority.

 

[NWRed]

As a liberal myself, I'm always amazed that people are ready to throw the racist card at anyone that dares suggest that integration, assimilation and societal cohesion might be stretched by unprecedented levels of immigration. It's not a good look and it only ends up stiffening the back of those you throw the accusation to.

To get to your question, are there racists among those socially conservative traditionalists? Sure plenty. In fact, racists come almost exclusively from that group. Are they all racist by default? No. And racism is indeed a form of intolerance to difference, but not all intolerance to difference is racism. Much like every Ford Focus is a car but not every car is a Ford Focus.

In the broader sense I see it as a spectrum of intolerance to change. Traditionalists can be get upset by religious change, demographic change, linguistic change, feminism, political correctness, having to call people by their preferred pronouns etc. etc. Or, to be it bluntly, anything that has changed from the time they were kids. It can be any or all of things. But generally, to borrow a financial/engineering term, the bigger the delta (rate of change) the bigger the backlash and it's never been greater. The more things rapidly change, the more out-of-place some people feel. The information/social media age compounded by mass immigration has brought about a lot of rapid change for a lot of people.

And those (conservativism, traditionalism and resistance to change) are not privileges of white men alone. Most ethnic minorities are even more conservative and traditionalist in a lot of the aforementioned issues. And exhibit similar traits in the countries where they form the majority.

I don't think 'socially conservative traditionalist' and 'culturally insecure' are interchangable terms.

Socially conservative traditionalists means valuing heritage and history, believing in a traditional family, believing in law and order etc, these don't imply a fear of difference or of change. Like you say, these values are shared by many immigrants and I think you can be a socially conservative traditionalist and support immigration. Culturally insecure on the other hand does mean a fear of change and difference. I'm aware that there is a spectrum of intolerance to difference and change, and that racism is not the sole preserve of white males, but where does 'culturally insecure' become racist. If foreign people make them uncomfortable then maybe they are racist, no matter how much the label stiffens their backs.

 

[MadMike]

I don't think 'socially conservative traditionalist' and 'culturally insecure' are interchangable terms.

Socially conservative traditionalists means valuing heritage and history, believing in a traditional family, believing in law and order etc, these don't imply a fear of difference or of change. Like you say, these values are shared by many immigrants and I think you can be a socially conservative traditionalist and support immigration. Culturally insecure on the other hand does mean a fear of change and difference. I'm aware that there is a spectrum of intolerance to difference and change, and that racism is not the sole preserve of white males, but where does 'culturally insecure' become racist. If foreign people make them uncomfortable then maybe they are racist, no matter how much the label stiffens their backs.

Yes it does? Or to be precise, no more ore less than culturally insecure implies racist. How does a "socially conservative traditionalist who believes in traditional family", deal with same sex marriage and adoptions by same sex couples, or with LGBT representation in family TV shows, or with the change in family power structure due to women's near equal earning power or with sex education at school etc. etc. You know, change that has happened. The answer is too often, not very well. The people who are outside schools complaining about the sex ed curriculum describe themselves as family traditionalists. Whereas an outsider would call them culturally insecure. Sometimes it's just a difference of perspective.

If foreign people make them uncomfortable they are xenophobes not racists. There is a backlash against liberalism in general and the backlash against the multi-cultural, open-border society is part of it but not all of it.

 

[NWRed]

Yes it does? Or to be precise, no more ore less than culturally insecure implies racist. How does a "socially conservative traditionalist who believes in traditional family", deal with same sex marriage and adoptions by same sex couples, or with LGBT representation in family TV shows, or with the change in family power structure due to women's near equal earning power or with sex education at school etc. etc. You know, change that has happened. The answer is too often, not very well. The people who are outside schools complaining about the sex ed curriculum describe themselves as family traditionalists. Whereas an outsider would call them culturally insecure. Sometimes it's just a difference of perspective.

If foreign people make them uncomfortable they are xenophobes not racists. There is a backlash against liberalism in general and the backlash against the multi-cultural, open-border society is part of it but not all of it.

I think you can value things without being scared of change, I certainly do. Taking your example of believing in a traditional family, I meant it as believing that society works best when children are raised by two parents in a loving relationship rather than by single parents etc, I don't think that neccessarily means being uncomfortable with same sex marriage etc, which is usually people using 'belief in a traditional family' as cover for their prejudice. I also don't agree that believing in a traditional family means believing that a woman's role is or should be subservient to a man's, or that a woman earning the same or more is a bad thing.

People who are uncomfortable with same sex marriage or equality for women might like to be called a socially conservative traditionalist and prefer this label as it legitimises their prejudice, but what they are is homophobic and misogynist. It's the same with a person who is uncomfortable with foreigners, they may prefer to be called socially conservative or culturally insecure as it is a more comfortable label, but what they are is racist (although I understand the difference between racism and xenophobia I tend to use the term racist as there is a large overlap and I don't think it's possible to be xenophobic without being racist).

 

[NWRed]

Thanks, i'll give it watch when I get time.

 

[sun_tzu]

So as far as I can work out Cummings is building skynet?

https://dominiccummings.com/2020/01...sorted-weirdos/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

And getting people to apply for government jobs to a Gmail account

Welcome to the 2020's

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

More food for thought about what the Labour defeat means from Paul Mason.

 

[Sweet Square]

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[Sweet Square]

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[berbatrick]

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This is going to happen, maybe the only use in pointing it out is to create a separate edia ecosystem for leftists.

The most ideal situation would be if Corbyn somehow was dead, otherwise he will weight down the left for a decade or so. I have no idea what RLB was thinking praising him. He is less popular than a paedophile. Momentum should hit him for incompetent leadership, he's too timid to hit back.

 

[Sweet Square]

This is going to happen, maybe the only use in pointing it out is to create a separate edia ecosystem for leftists.

Pretty much.

The most ideal situation would be if Corbyn somehow was dead, otherwise he will weight down the left for a decade or so. I have no idea what RLB was thinking praising him. He is less popular than a paedophile. Momentum should hit him for incompetent leadership, he's too timid to hit back.

It was silly to give him a 10/10 but at the same time, if she slags him off then the press would have just asked why the hell is she running on a similar platform. RLB answer was awful but there never a good one to give.

I'm not too worried about Corbyn weighing down the left or the labour party, Blair hasn't been involved in British politics for over a decade and there are still people who still won't vote Labour because of his time in office(These people are always right wingers who hated that immigration existed under New Labour). Anyone still hating Labour for Corbyn reasons, years after he left the position of leader is a lost cause.

 

[berbatrick]

Pretty much.


It was silly to give him a 10/10 but at the same time, if she slags him off then the press would have just asked why the hell is she running on a similar platform. RLB answer was awful but there never a good one to give.

I'm not too worried about Corbyn weighing down the left or the labour party, Blair hasn't been involved in British politics for over a decade and there are still people who still won't vote Labour because of his time in office(These people are always right wingers who hated that immigration existed under New Labour). Anyone still hating Labour for Corbyn reasons, years after he left the position of leader is a lost cause.

"We have a popular platform, as polling and feedback tells us, but our leadership was unable to spread this message and instead fought the election on the opposition's terms."
I don't live there but uhhh I stare at a lot of polling and I think Corbyn hate is underestimated. Maybe 15 years later you can go to Corbyn videos and the comments will be like Tony Benn vids - "I'm a Tory but what a principled man", "the best PM we never had" while in reality, when he was active, Benn was despised.

 

[Sweet Square]

"We have a popular platform, as polling and feedback tells us, but our leadership was unable to spread this message and instead fought the election on the oppositions' terms."

She did something somewhat similar in a Sky Interview this morning

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She is also running in a leadership election where Corbyn won the last two massively, so I'm not sure how popular it would be with labour members to slag off Corbyn(Although knowing how bad Corbyn polls, there might be some polling showing Labour members now hate him).

I don't live there but uhhh I stare at a lot of polling and I think Corbyn hate is underestimated. Maybe 15 years later you can go to Corbyn videos and the comments will be like Tony Benn vids - "I'm a Tory but what a principled man", "the best PM we never had" while in reality, when he was active, Benn was despised.

No left wing politician running for PM will be liked by the public. If RLB wins the leadership race then I'm certain in the next election she will be going into it being massively disliked by the British public(The same applies to any labour leader who isn't related to the Murdoch Family).

 

[berbatrick]

She did something somewhat similar in a Sky Interview this morning

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She is also running in a leadership election where Corbyn won the last two massively, so I'm not sure how popular it would be with labour members to slag off Corbyn(Although knowing how bad Corbyn polls, there might be some polling showing Labour members now hate him).


No left wing politician running for PM will be liked by the public. If RLB wins the leadership race then I'm certain in the next election she will be going into it being massively disliked by the British public(The same applies to any labour leader who isn't related to the Murdoch Family).

Its something I think we are going to have to accept, so we need to find alternatives.

Agree with all that, but no need to cling to him - makes their job easier. Fortunately she's too young to have had a position on Ireland when it was violent.

 

[Sweet Square]

but no need to cling to him - makes their job easier.

100% agree. I would say the Itv interview today was her first mistake.

Fortunately she's too young to have had a position on Ireland when it was violent.

RLB is a catholic so I'm still expecting the press to carry on with the whole labour party being pro I.R.A.(I'm still amazed the amount of anger Corbyn history with Irish republicanism caused, I remember one guy not voting Labour in this election due to Corbyn involvement with the Birmingham six). But overall her record is really clean.

 

[berbatrick]

100% agree. I would say the Itv interview today was her first mistake.


RLB is a catholic so I'm still expecting the press to carry on with the whole labour party being pro I.R.A.(I'm still amazed the amount of anger Corbyn history with Irish republicanism caused, I remember one guy not voting Labour in this election due to Corbyn involvement with the Birmingham six). But overall her record is really clean.

the ira stuff did far more damage than anti-semitism. which confirms that it's thr right-wing press, not the centrists, and the less sophisticated online stuff (fb over twitter) that actually shape public opinion.

 

[sun_tzu]

Is it PMQ's today...
going to be uncomfortable for corbyn I suspect (or will he hand it over to somebody else?)

 

[CassiusClaymore]

I remember one guy not voting Labour in this election due to Corbyn involvement with the Birmingham six

Dipshit.

 

[Sweet Square]

the ira stuff did far more damage than anti-semitism. which confirms that it's thr right-wing press, not the centrists, and the less sophisticated online stuff (fb over twitter) that actually shape public opinion.

Completely agree. There was a great example of this with the story about the Isis girl who wanted to come back to Britain, it was mainstream news on twitter and places like Sky News for about 24 hours and then the media moved onto Brexit. But it still doing massive numbers on Facebook.

There's one conversation the media is having(And actually places like this forum)and a completely different one the general public is having(Which tend to be more about far right culture wars stuff).

Dipshit.

Found it


''I'm not voting for that bigot Farage'' - walks off to vote for Boris Johnson.

''I voted Conservative but I'm gutted when they won the election''

 

[Kinsella]

More food for thought about what the Labour defeat means from Paul Mason.

The Tories will be very happy if people like Paul Mason and those at Novara Media are front and centre of the Labour Party movement and thought.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

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[Mogget]

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[Adisa]

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‍

 

[Drifter]

UK defense secretary says his country can no longer rely on the US amid Trump-induced chaos

Ben Wallace, who serves as the United Kingdom’s Secretary of State for Defense, is worried that the United States in the age of President Donald Trump cannot be counted on as a reliable ally.

“I worry if the United States withdraws from its leadership around the world,” Wallace said this week in an interview with The Times. “That would be bad for the world and bad for us. We plan for the worst and hope for the best.”

Wallace also cited some of Trump’s actions and statements as justification for launching a review of U.K. defense policy aimed at making the country less dependent on the United States.

“Over the last year we’ve had the U.S. pull out from Syria, the statement by Donald Trump on Iraq where he said NATO should take over and do more in the Middle East,” Wallace said. “The assumptions of 2010 that we were always going to be part of a US coalition is really just not where we are going to be. We are very dependent on American air cover and American intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets. We need to diversify our assets.”

A push to make the U.K. more independent from America likely will mean working more closely with Europe, despite the fact that voters in the U.K. voted to leave the European Union in 2016.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

UK defense secretary says his country can no longer rely on the US amid Trump-induced chaos

Trump is going to be confused now. We have oil and the nukes to excuse an attack but we're a predominantly Caucasian nation so he won't know if he wants to invade us or not.

 

[Sweet Square]

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[Smores]

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"Greives Russia Report"

Peston continues his descent to Fox News levels.