Westminster Politics

[Fluctuation0161]

What's boring is seeing you predictably not care.

Didn't you know? The fight against anti semitism has stopped now Corbyn has lost the election.

 

[Sweet Square]

Wanting the party to take a more positive view of the strengths of Britain and to drop policies likes educating kids on the crimes of the British Empire to win over this faction of voters does not equate to racism.

Why do you keep bringing this one policy up ? Also your view is to literally white wash British history for votes. You do know the people most annoyed by this particular labour policy will also hate that there black labour mp's. If you willing to drop the teaching of Britain involvement in the slave trade or its history of colonialism in India(One of the many places), for the sake of votes, should labour drop all its black mp's then ?

Putting aside the whole moral and ethical angle(Although we really shouldn't), wouldn't this embracing of white washing, massively piss off the people of colour who vote Labour ?

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/next-labour-leader.452249/page-11#post-25049735

Completely agree, I mean why talk about the changing class dynamics in 21st century Britain, neoliberalism effects on workers, the transformational changes needed in the British economy to fight climate change, the effects of technology in our politics, the rise of nationalism etc etc. When actually the real answer is

- drum roll -

''Abandon identity politics''.

Come on mate, you don't really believe this shite ? Gotta love the contradiction of abandoning ''identity politics'' but also embracing national identity, if British nationalism is anything, its a form of ''identity politics''(Also ''identity politics'' is just been used here as a place holder for anti racist politics) .

Spoiler: R.I.P Macron.

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[Adisa]

Isn't there a UK politics thread?
The reaction to Stormzy's comments says everything about this country.
Depressing.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Why do you keep bringing this one policy up ? Also your view is to literally white wash British history for votes. You do know the people most annoyed by this particular labour policy will also hate that there black labour mp's. If you willing to drop the teaching of Britain involvement in the slave trade or its history of colonialism in India(One of the many places), for the sake of votes, should labour drop all its black mp's then ?

Putting aside the whole moral and ethical angle(Although we really shouldn't), wouldn't this embracing of white washing, massively piss off the people of colour who vote Labour ?



Completely agree, I mean why talk about the changing class dynamics in 21st century Britain, neoliberalism effects on workers, the transformational changes needed in the British economy to fight climate change, the effects of technology in our politics, the rise of nationalism etc etc. When actually the real answer is

- drum roll -

''Abandon identity politics''.

Come on mate, you don't really believe this shite ?

p.s. Gotta love the contradiction of abandoning ''identity politics'' but also embracing national identity, if British nationalism is anything, its a form of ''identity politics''(Also ''identity politics'' is just been used here as a place holder for anti racist politics) .

Spoiler: R.I.P Macron.

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We are talking about how to win back those working class votes and that one policy is indicative of the type of identity politics that is central to Labour currently which, in part, turns them off the movement. You can add in stuff like Corbyn's stance on The Falklands, those types of things. I think your idea that if you remove that policy then you might as well remove black MPs is so nonsensical its not worth addressing in detail, not least because they've switched to a party that deliberaty put minority candidates front of house in the recent election race.

I don't think it would put the BAME community off voting Labour at all if that policy didn't exist. They will tend to Labour because it is the party that best looks after its interests. I would have thought that those communities would want to see an electable Labour party that can actually affect positive change. Its funny that you mention morals because Corbyn's Labour dropped their Kashmir stance like a stone at the signs of the first grumblings about it from the Indian community, a community with far less electoral weight that the white working class by the way, so it looks like your identity politics and morals are up for trade when it suits.

I guess it would have clearer to say 'drop left wing identity politics'. I must say that given your faction of the Labour party has just led it to one of the most crushing defeats in history and nearly destroyed the party completely, your dismissive tone on any reforms seems pretty incredible. Sadly its indicative of the smug, sanctimonious and arrogant streak that runs through the hard left character and one aspect that makes it unelectable in this country.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Isn't there a UK politics thread?
The reaction to Stormzy's comments says everything about this country.
Depressing.

Hasn't he had his words taken out of context? It looks like he is saying the UK is racist

 

[Pexbo]

Hasn't he had his words taken out of context? It looks like he is saying the UK is racist

The UK is racist.

 

[esmufc07]

I’m not sure how it is news. Is there anybody who doesn’t think there’s issues of racism within society?

 

[Sweet Square]

We are talking about how to win back those working class votes and that one policy is indicative of the type of identity politics that is central to Labour currently which, in part, turns them off the movement. You can add in stuff like Corbyn's stance on The Falklands, those types of things.

Oh right so you do believe this shite.

''Blue Labour you saw me standing alone, Without a dream in my heart, Without a love of my own. Blue Labour, You knew just what I was there for........''. Just to get it out of the way, most of the people we are talking aren't working class but old pensioners who own property.

Now can you please tell me 1)What identity politics is for you, is it simply things you don't like(Which at the moment seems to be the case) ? 2)Why is teaching British history a form of ''identity politics'' ?

I think your idea that if you remove that policy then you might as well remove black MPs is so nonsensical its not worth addressing in detail, not least because they've switched to a party that deliberaty put minority candidates front of house in the recent election race.

We are talking about a policy to teach millions of school children about British history, with your view we've effectively ruled people of colour from the history books, teaching the history of the first indian mp(Dadabhai Naoroji) or first black mp(Bernie Grant)never materialises. If the labour party is simply going to dismiss such history(Due to racist pressure)then why have any black mp or candidates.

Also google Stewart Hall.

What Thompson called the “peculiarities of the English” (and especially the peculiarities of English socialism) have been on Hall’s mind a good deal lately. He has been talking about the New Left and Englishness with, among others, Jonathan Rutherford, his colleague on the editorial board of the journal Soundings and a prime mover in “Blue Labour”, and Jon Cruddas, entrusted by Ed Miliband with responsibility for the Labour Party’s policy review.

Hall says he understands the impulse behind Rutherford’s and Cruddas’s attempt to find intellectual resources for a new politics of “common life” in ancient English radical traditions. Yet he insists that such traditions cannot be revived “at will”. “I talked to Cruddas about this,” he tells me. “I think I understand his preoccupations rather more than Maurice Glasman’s. In a constituency like Cruddas’s, where you’re fighting the far right, you have to think about those things [English identity, immigration]. But you have to be careful about how you recruit them. He came to talk to me about the New Left, which, of course, was interested in the popular language of the nation. But I had the feeling he was raiding the past, out of context, in a way.”

He acknowledges that his scepticism on this score is deep-rooted and shaped in a decisive way by his origins. “If you come from the Caribbean, you can’t look at Englishness in the same way. It just means a different thing than it does here. You never forget that other dimension. I do think Englishness is something we need to talk about, but it’s contested terrain that is structured powerfully against a contemporary radical appropriation.”


The analysis, and his account of “new times” (the changes in the so-called post-Fordist economy brought about by globalisation), had some influence on the early intellectual outriders of New Labour, but Hall insists that his insights were vulgarised by the Blairites. “There is a tiny kernel of truth in the assertion that [Marxism Today] created Blairism, in the sense that the ‘new times’ stuff was addressing the change of the whole terrain. But what we recommended was that you needed a project on the left of the same breadth and depth as Thatcherism. New Labour understood it as meaning that you needed the same project!”

For Hall, it was during the New Labour years that neoliberal, free-market fundamentalism finally became “common sense”. “I would say that New Labour come closer to institutionalising neoliberalism as a social and political form than Thatcher did. She destroyed everything in order to have a flat plane on which to build, but there was serious opposition and struggle. Thatcherism was a slash-and-burn strategy. With Blair, the language became more adaptive; it found ways of presenting itself to Labour supporters as well.”

What of the present? Are we midway through a crisis of the neoliberal dispensation that has lasted for more than 30 years? Hall agrees that the present impasse is “one of the most serious crises of neoliberalism. But I don’t think there’s any guarantee that it will be resolved or that it will lead to profound change or transformation. The intellectual’s job is to tell people how reality really is – to look it in the face. As Gramsci said, ‘pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will’.”

Ralph Miliband, the father of the current Labour leader, thought that line of Gramsci’s “an exceedingly bad slogan for socialists”, because, he said, it implies that “defeat is more likely than success”. How optimistic is Hall about the leadership of Miliband fils? “Not very. He has been so watchful of his back that he can’t go forward. You can’t conduct a successful political revival on that basis. Sometimes, you have to have some courage.”

The day after I met Hall, Ed Miliband gave a speech about immigration, announcing that a “grown-up debate” on the subject was required. I couldn’t help thinking of something Hall had said to me the previous day. “You always have to ask yourself, ‘What’s happened to Englishness? Where is it now?’ It’s not that there aren’t elements of it that one would want to retain, but it’s difficult ground.” It is an open question whether it is courageous for Miliband to stake out that terrain, or merely reckless.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2012/08/stuart-hall-we-need-talk-about-englishness

I don't think it would put the BAME community off voting Labour at all if that policy didn't exist. They will tend to Labour because it is the party that best looks after its interests. I would have thought that those communities would want to see an electable Labour party that can actually affect positive change.

You are literally telling BAME labour members and MP's(who have worked incredibly hard to get this policy through), whats in their best interest. Have you got anything to back this up with ? I suggest you look at New Labour history on racism to see that simply having a electable labour party doesn't automatically mean anti racist politics.

Its funny that you mention morals because Corbyn's Labour dropped their Kashmir stance like a stone at the signs of the first grumblings about it from the Indian community, a community with far less electoral weight that the white working class by the way, so it looks like your identity politics and morals are up for trade when it suits.

Yeah and this was a bad decision. Just other reason why we need a democratic members lead labour party.

I guess it would have clearer to say 'drop left wing identity politics'.

We've already been here before.

Please don't just say, the new labour leader should be more racist nationalist while holding an England flag.

The UK is racist.

Typical left wing identity politics. Anyway someone dress Keir Starmer up as a giant poppy and make him feck the union jack, so labour can win the North.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Oh right so you do believe this shite.

''Blue Labour you saw me standing alone, Without a dream in my heart, Without a love of my own. Blue Labour, You knew just what I was there for........''. Just to get it out of the way, most of the people we are talking aren't working class but old pensioners who own property.

Now can you please tell me 1)What identity politics is for you, is it simply things you don't like(Which at the moment seems to be the case) ? 2)Why is teaching British history a form of ''identity politics'' ?


We are talking about a policy to teach millions of school children about British history, with your view we've effectively ruled people of colour from the history books, teaching the history of the first indian mp(Dadabhai Naoroji) or first black mp(Bernie Grant)never materialises. If the labour party is simply going to dismiss such history(Due to racist pressure)then why have any black mp or candidates.

Also google Stewart Hall.







You are literally telling BAME labour members and MP's(who have worked incredibly hard to get this policy through), whats in their best interest. Have you got anything to back this up with ? I suggest you look at New Labour history on racism to see that simply having a electable labour party doesn't automatically mean anti racist politics.


Yeah and this was a bad decision. Just other reason why we need a democratic members lead labour party.


We've already been here before.








Typical left wing identity politics. Anyway someone dress Keir Starmer up as a giant poppy and make him feck the union jack, so labour can win the North.

Who says that I don't like them?

The only thing that I vehemently disagreed on was Corbyn's stance on The Falklands given that Argentina have zero legitimate claim to it as far as I can see and there's a British population living there that completely loathe Argentina. The only responsibility the country should have is to that population and what they want.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum

Before you start accusing me of wanting to fire up the Empire again - I think we should give the Chagos Islands back as it seems we are only holding onto it to curry favour with the Americans. Personally I would prefer us to distance ourselves from America as much as possible. I think we should give back all territories where possible.

I think the British Empire should be taught in schools but I think it should be taught broadly rather than just the 'injustices'. That said, I wouldn't care a jot if just the injustices were taught. It makes no odds to me. I don't have kids but if I did I'd want them to be intellectually curious and know about the history of Britain, good and bad. The slave trade is taught in British schools as part of the curriculum, as far as I'm aware anyway.

What we are talking about is winning back those working class communities in order to get a Labour government in power. I said that I didn't think that the BAME communities would desert the Labour party in the absence of such a policy. I didn't say that I know what's best for them on a personal level but what I do know is that having an unelectable Labour party is the absolute worst thing for all disadvantaged communities.

I'm sure that you know what identity politics means in this context and are just being obtuse. It's what right wing gas bags like Paul Joseph Watson refer to as cultural Marxism. Among the white working classes they feel that Labour want to impose a particular cultural agenda on them and it turns many of them off the movement.

Personally I think the most effective way to combat racism would be to get into power and improve the social security for the poorest communities so they don't feel insecure about their place in the world and that they are losing out to immigrants. This cannot be achieved without power. I do agree that the conversation around immigration needs to become honest i.e. that it's necessary to sustain our economy and increasing public spending. New Labour did fail on that count admittedly.

Your quip about Starmer is weak and I don't think such hyperbole adds anything other than distortion. I don't favour the party becoming overtly nationalist at all, I think it needs to be more positive about Britain though because I do not believe that smug and sanctimonious wins elections.

I'm an unashamed Blairite politically. I think politics is about winning power and compromises have to be made to win elections, some of them cynical. You have to appeal to a broad base of voters so positions driven by morals are a losing game.

Your platform just nearly destroyed the party completely but you don't think there's an issue with it. It's bizarre frankly and no number of terrible jokes about Starmer shagging a poppy is going to change that.

 

[Sweet Square]

I'm sure that you know what identity politics means in this context and are just being obtuse. It's what right wing gas bags like Paul Joseph Watson refer to as cultural Marxism. Among the white working classes they feel that Labour want to impose a particular cultural agenda on them and it turns many of them off the movement.

No I don't. Please explain what you mean by identity politics.

Also the white working class doesn't have one single view and is completely different in parts of the country(Again for the most part we are talking about retired pensioners and not working class people).

Your platform just nearly destroyed the party completely but you don't think there's an issue with it. It's bizarre frankly and no number of terrible jokes about Starmer shagging a poppy is going to change that.

Er.

Its one thing to have a political platform that is hated by anyone over 65(Which is a massive problem), its another to have a platform that will utterly fail to meet even the very basic challenges of the modern world.

Cheers this has a brilliant use of time.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

No I don't. Please explain what you mean by identity politics.

Also the white working class doesn't have one single view and is completely different in parts of the country(Again for the most part we are talking about retired pensioners and not working class people).

The white working class in this country are pretty right wing socially. The current Labour Party is very left wing socially. That is the core of the identity politics of the party with a sprinkling of moralising over subjects like Israel, Kashmir and so on. This is a conflict that I don’t think that the hard left is incapable of settling and one that contributed to the historic defeat that Labour suffered in my opinion.

 

[Sweet Square]

The white working class in this country are pretty right wing socially. The current Labour Party is very left wing socially. That is the core of the identity politics of the party with a sprinkling of moralising over subjects like Israel, Kashmir and so on. This is a conflict that I don’t think that the hard left is incapable of settling and one that contributed to the historic defeat that Labour suffered in my opinion.

The core of the party is social democracy.

Anyway Labour won the under 50 vote , which will be mostly working class people.

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Labour has a huge issue with over the 50's, who are mostly retired property owners

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And your solution to this problem with older voters is for Labour to agree with ''identity politics'' framing used by far right and ditch anti racist politics ?

Again I would just like to bring back this point

I mean why talk about the changing class dynamics in 21st century Britain, neoliberalism effects on workers, the transformational changes needed in the British economy to fight climate change, the effects of technology in our politics, the rise of nationalism etc etc. When actually the real answer is

- drum roll -

''Abandon identity politics''.

Australia is on fire and we are talking about ''identity politics''.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The core of the party is social democracy.

Anyway Labour won the under 50 vote , which will be mostly working class people.

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Labour has a huge issue with over the 50's, who are mostly retired property owners

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And your solution to this problem with older voters is for Labour to agree with ''identity politics'' framing of the far right and ditched anti racist politics ?

Again I would just like to bring back this point



Australia is on fire and we are talking about ''identity politics''.

We're talking about winning power in the UK.

Do you have the data that says that the under 50 Labour vote were working class, as I couldn't find that particular breakdown myself?

Focusing less on identity politics is only one aspect of the reforms that the party needs. Anti-racism politics can only be of any use when a party is in power.

You seem to imply that you think it's an acceptable to sit out Tory rule for another 25 years until the evil property owning gammon dies out and hope that there isn't the usual conservative drift as voters age. This isn't acceptable in my opinion. The YouGov data shows that the age when people are likely to switch to a conservative vote is coming down too, its now at 39.

 

[Ubik]

We're talking about winning power in the UK.

Do you have the data that says that the under 50 Labour vote were working class, as I couldn't find that particular breakdown myself?

Focusing less on identity politics is only one aspect of the reforms that the party needs. Anti-racism politics can only be of any use when a party is in power.

You seem to imply that you think it's an acceptable to sit out Tory rule for another 25 years until the evil property owning gammon dies out and hope that there isn't the usual conservative drift as voters age. This isn't acceptable in my opinion. The YouGov data shows that the age when people are likely to switch to a conservative vote is coming down too, its now at 39.

This is probably the best data available until the BES results are published in the new year - https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election

The big deal to me is the swing, 35-54 Lab-Tory swing from 2017 was approaching 10% from C2DEs, and even for under 34s it's about 4% which is still big.

Also consider these charts when talking about the age distinction in modern politics

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It's always been there, but it only became this extreme in the last two elections. And as shown earlier this month, it's a lot less durable as an electoral coalition.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

This is probably the best data available until the BES results are published in the new year - https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election

The big deal to me is the swing, 35-54 Lab-Tory swing from 2017 was approaching 10% from C2DEs, and even for under 34s it's about 4% which is still big.

Also consider these charts when talking about the age distinction in modern politics

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It's always been there, but it only became this extreme in the last two elections. And as shown earlier this month, it's a lot less durable as an electoral coalition.

Cheers. Surprising that they lost BAME voters at the same rate they did white voters.

 

[Sweet Square]

We're talking about winning power in the UK.

We've been over this before

Its one thing to have a political platform that is hated by anyone over 65(Which is a massive problem), its another to have a platform that will utterly fail to meet even the very basic challenges of the modern world.

Focusing less on identity politics is only one aspect of the reforms that the party needs. Anti-racism politics can only be of any use when a party is in power.

Again I can only recommend you go back and look at the New Labour years - Anti immigration speeches on the white cliffs of dover, British Jobs for British People, opening of immigration detention centres, prevent, Blunkett accusing asylum seekers’ of swamping British schools, The BNP winning two seats in the european elections, etc etc.

Britain was a racist shit hole long before 2016.

Do you have the data that says that the under 50 Labour vote were working class, as I couldn't find that particular breakdown myself?

The great myth of the british working class
https://www.huckmag.com/perspective.../the-great-myth-of-the-british-working-class/

Jeremy Corbyn And The Working Class
https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2017/07/jeremy-corbyn-and-working-class.html

plus how we measure class in Britain is pretty awful - https://www.patreon.com/posts/your-incorrect-12895193

Also good article on the working class conservatism

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You seem to imply that you think it's an acceptable to sit out Tory rule for another 25 years until the evil property owning gammon dies out and hope that there isn't the usual conservative drift as voters age.

I've literally said labour failure with over 65 is a massive problem and that I'm not sure what to do about it(Other than blade runner cities). But the usual conservative swing isn't happening(Turn out in the last election was shite)for the reasons I always bang on about. Plus we haven't got another 25 years to wait because well everything is on fire but I don't think being a bit racist proud of Britain is going to solve the issue.

 

[berbatrick]

Brexit: Johnson condemned for dropping pledge to replace family reunion law
Lawyers warn loss of reunion rights for unaccompanied refugee children will put them in danger
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...dropping-pledge-to-replace-family-reunion-law

"The ideal election outcome is a large Tory majority since Boris would then be able to govern from the middle, without pressure from the extremes of the party."

 

[TheGame]

Can this country sink any lower:

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[Classical Mechanic]

We've been over this before






Again I can only recommend you go back and look at the New Labour years - Anti immigration speeches on the white cliffs of dover, British Jobs for British People, opening of immigration detention centres, prevent, Blunkett accusing asylum seekers’ of swamping British schools, The BNP winning two seats in the european elections, etc etc.

Britain was a racist shit hole long before 2016.



The great myth of the british working class
https://www.huckmag.com/perspective.../the-great-myth-of-the-british-working-class/

Jeremy Corbyn And The Working Class
https://averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com/2017/07/jeremy-corbyn-and-working-class.html

plus how we measure class in Britain is pretty awful - https://www.patreon.com/posts/your-incorrect-12895193

Also good article on the working class conservatism

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I've literally said labour failure with over 65 is a massive problem and that I'm not sure what to do about it(Other than blade runner cities). But the usual conservative swing isn't happening(Turn out in the last election was shite)for the reasons I always bang on about. Plus we haven't got another 25 years to wait because well everything is on fire but I don't think being a bit racist proud of Britain is going to solve the issue.

The articles that you posted just seem like desperate rationalisations as to why the project Corbyn should continue. The fact is that Nigel Farage started the culture wars we're talking about to grow UKIP, Dominic Cummings exploited these cultures wars to win Brexit and then to win power for Boris. These culture wars are not going to go away, in fact I'll predict now that Cummings and The Tories are going to seek to deepen them and make them a defining feature of the political landscape in order to win power as they continue to disenfranchise disadvantaged communities economically.

I guess my perception is partly coloured by my own life experience. One of the former northern Labour safe seats that went Tory, Heywood & Middleton is a constituency I know very well. Middleton and Heywood are working class to lower middle class areas, some of the towns there were created for the slum clearances in Manchester, such as Langley where Paul Scholes is from. My first house was a terraced in Middleton and I worked there in my younger days and know many people there still. I'm also in Heywood on a semi-regular basis. In 2014 there was a by-election after Jim Dobbin died (someone my dad worked with for a decade in the NHS). Nigel Farage saw this as an opportunity to advance the Brexit cause and was in the town centre in pubs and standing on top of tanks stating.

“We are parking our tanks on Labour’s lawn – that’s the message ”

UKIP came close to winning that by-election but Labour hung on in the end. You can look at this as a pivotal moment in this whole process of the culture wars that brought us Brexit and nearly destroyed the Labour party under Corbyn's leadership. The constituency was 62% Leave. I know the people and the character of these two towns and they are socially conservative and Corbyn's labour doesn't speak to them at all and I'll include many of the younger generation in that. I'd be amazed if any of the other similar towns that have gone Tory are any different. No amount of middle class Corbynistas trying redefine what the working class actually is will change the fact that these people were Labour's traditional base, if you want to understand who they are, its the people that you've created a derogatory term for - the gammon! They have to be won back for Labour to get into power.

I know that you keep saying that you accept the older white working class voters are a problem but you shrug your shoulders and say 'I dunno' i.e. we must continue project Corbyn at all costs. And no, I'm not suggesting that we simply become a more nationalist party as you keep trying to use as a slur, I'm saying that we need to accept the profound rejection of Corbynism and re-calibrate the party entirely, leave Corbynism behind completely.

I guess this is the impasse though because no matter what we say to each other our opinions are not going to change on this point. I accept though, that given the way the party is now structured that we'll likely see your vision realised but my perception is that this faction is incapable of taking on a more competent Tory leadership than May's with Cummings pulling the strings for Boris.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Can this country sink any lower:

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We literally already knew this didn’t we? Obviously a deal he made.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Can this country sink any lower:

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Worse people than Farage have been honoured by the Queen.

 

[Sweet Square]

I know that you keep saying that you accept the older white working class voters are a problem but you shrug your shoulders and say 'I dunno' i.e. we must continue project Corbyn at all costs. And no, I'm not suggesting that we simply become a more nationalist party as you keep trying to use as a slur, I'm saying that we need to accept the profound rejection of Corbynism and re-calibrate the party entirely, leave Corbynism behind completely.

I guess this is the impasse though because no matter what we say to each other our opinions are not going to change on this point. I accept though, that given the way the party is now structured that we'll likely see your vision realised but my perception is that this faction is incapable of taking on a more competent Tory leadership than May's with Cummings pulling the strings for Boris.

Yeah we never going to agree(We have fundamentally a different way of viewing class).

The working class our "blue collar Tories" and their Blue Labour analogues get into a lather about is the working class of the past. The contemporary working class, the socialised worker is disproportionately young, more likely to be disengaged from official politics, but also largely spontaneously anti-Tory thanks to how the Tories are barriers to getting on and have vested interests in keeping this state of affairs so their voter coalition can hold together.

Why the old and the retired then. Why are they prepared to return governments who actively make life tougher for their children and grand children. Well, obviously, they don't see it like that. At its most conscious it's going to be articulated as tough love but ultimately, as a group of voters and a segment within the wider class structure there are certain structural characteristics conditioning their choices. The first is property. After a life time of work under a more benign economic and political settlement than now, they are more likely to own a home and have a decent pension. A decent number hold small quantities of shares. As modest as this property ownership is, you want to keep hold of it. And so suggestions Labour are going to tax the rich is code for 'they want to nationalise my bungalow'. Property, therefore, is something to be jealously guarded.

On top of this has to be considered the atomising effects of retirement. From the discipline of the working day to a modest but real enough freedom, retirement opens up the vistas of free time (conditioned by income, naturally) not available to those in work. As such it is a relative estrangement from the social and, therefore, the interests articulating and clashing within it. Further, whether a pensioner has property or not - about a third don't - the bulk of retirees are on fixed and modest incomes without the means, and in some cases the capacity, to make good shortfalls if, for whatever reason, something goes wrong. This means pensioners are prey to the sorts of ontological anxieties. In this case, a suspicion of change, a bewilderment tinged with fear about the state of the world, and a propensity to soak up stories that feed these anxieties. See The Mail, for example. Within this imaginary Corbyn was a danger because he cavorted with Britain's enemies, and condensed all their fears around tolerance, multiculturalism, softness, and big spending. He epitomised all that was wrong, now and in the immediate future. And so their votes for "change", be it Brexit or Boris, is a vote against a world that scares them, do not understand, and do not want to understand. This is pensioner as petit bourgeois.

Social being conditions consciousness, and the Tory gains demonstrate this better than anything else. In Bed Bradley's Mansfield, over the last three decades (according to Centre for Towns research), the number of over 65s are up 30%. Bolsover 35%. Scunthorpe 40%. Younger people, the socialised workers, have tended to mover where the jobs are - hence the massive Labour majorities in the big cities - and those left are more likely to be stuck in the more precarious, low paid end of the labour market and not be as likely to vote as their pensionable neighbours. Therefore Labour's collapse in these seats has been a long time coming - but could have been headed off. The Tory victory then was brought by attracting older voters by patriotism, their attachment to the eternal solidity of Britain/England in an uncertain world and their outrage at London elites disregarding their leave votes. After all, Brexit for them is not about Singapore-on-Thames but asserting independence, putting the Great back into GB and sparking off national renewal.

 

[Drifter]

Two in three voters want Boris Johnson's government to ban zero-hours contracts, poll finds

Survey shows public wants workers' rights guaranteed after Brexit and backs tax rises to pay for public services

Two-thirds of voters want Boris Johnson‘s government to ban zero-hours contracts, a poll has found.

The public also wants workers’ rights protected after Brexit and tax rises for higher earners, according to the survey for the Trade Union Congress (TUC).

Trade union leaders said the poll meant Mr Johnson had “no more excuses” for not ensuring that rights are protected after Brexit.

The prime minister has said he is aware that many former Labour voters lent the Tories their vote at the general election and expect the government to now deliver for them.

However, he faced immediate criticism this week after ditching workers’ rights guarantees from the bill ratifying his Brexit deal.

A guarantee that current rights would not be weakened was included in a draft of the bill published in October but has been dropped from the latest version, prompting criticism from Labour MPs and campaigners.

The government insists that workers’ rights will be protected in separate legislation.

According to the survey, conducted by GQR for the TUC, 73 per cent of voters want the government to maintain and enhance current workers’ rights guaranteed by the EU. At 79 per cent, the proportion is even higher among voters who switched from Labour to the Conservatives at the general election.

Sixty-eight per cent of voters want the minimum wage to be raised to £10 an hour immediately, rising to 76 per cent among Labour-Tory switches, while 66 per cent of voters also want to see zero-hours contracts banned.

Labour had vowed to scrap zero-hours contracts but the Tories have argued that they give workers flexibility and should be properly regulated but not banned.

The poll also revealed widespread support for tax rises on high earners. Sixty-eight per cent of voters, including 56 per cent of Conservatives voters, want taxes on people earning over £80,000 a year to go up.

Fifty-nine per cent of voters said they would personally be willing to pay more tax to ensure public services are properly funded, while 31 per cent would not.

Commenting on the poll, Frances O’Grady, general secretary of the TUC, said: “We know many in Boris Johnson’s cabinet who want to drive down labour standards, but there is little appetite in Britain for de-regulation and further tax cuts for the rich – including among Conservative voters.

“The prime minister has no more excuses. Voters expect him to protect and strengthen rights at work. And they want him to get on with investing in our public services and boosting wages.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-zero-hour-contract-ban-latest-a9257281.html

Further proof that Corbyn's policies were popular ,even if Corbyn himself wasn't.

 

[TheGame]

Worse people than Farage have been honoured by the Queen.

So what? No reason why it’s ok for someone who stirred up racial hatred and then denied about such deals for a knighthood to be given one.

 

[Brwned]

Oh right so you do believe this shite.

''Blue Labour you saw me standing alone, Without a dream in my heart, Without a love of my own. Blue Labour, You knew just what I was there for........''. Just to get it out of the way, most of the people we are talking aren't working class but old pensioners who own property.

Now can you please tell me 1)What identity politics is for you, is it simply things you don't like(Which at the moment seems to be the case) ? 2)Why is teaching British history a form of ''identity politics'' ?


We are talking about a policy to teach millions of school children about British history, with your view we've effectively ruled people of colour from the history books, teaching the history of the first indian mp(Dadabhai Naoroji) or first black mp(Bernie Grant)never materialises. If the labour party is simply going to dismiss such history(Due to racist pressure)then why have any black mp or candidates.

Also google Stewart Hall.







You are literally telling BAME labour members and MP's(who have worked incredibly hard to get this policy through), whats in their best interest. Have you got anything to back this up with ? I suggest you look at New Labour history on racism to see that simply having a electable labour party doesn't automatically mean anti racist politics.


Yeah and this was a bad decision. Just other reason why we need a democratic members lead labour party.


We've already been here before.








Typical left wing identity politics. Anyway someone dress Keir Starmer up as a giant poppy and make him feck the union jack, so labour can win the North.

Do you think the way you engage the issues will endear people to your view of politics? Or do you have no interest in persuading people that your political view is worth considering?

 

[Honest John]

The articles that you posted just seem like desperate rationalisations as to why the project Corbyn should continue. The fact is that Nigel Farage started the culture wars we're talking about to grow UKIP, Dominic Cummings exploited these cultures wars to win Brexit and then to win power for Boris. These culture wars are not going to go away, in fact I'll predict now that Cummings and The Tories are going to seek to deepen them and make them a defining feature of the political landscape in order to win power as they continue to disenfranchise disadvantaged communities economically.

I guess my perception is partly coloured by my own life experience. One of the former northern Labour safe seats that went Tory, Heywood & Middleton is a constituency I know very well. Middleton and Heywood are working class to lower middle class areas, some of the towns there were created for the slum clearances in Manchester, such as Langley where Paul Scholes is from. My first house was a terraced in Middleton and I worked there in my younger days and know many people there still. I'm also in Heywood on a semi-regular basis. In 2014 there was a by-election after Jim Dobbin died (someone my dad worked with for a decade in the NHS). Nigel Farage saw this as an opportunity to advance the Brexit cause and was in the town centre in pubs and standing on top of tanks stating.

“We are parking our tanks on Labour’s lawn – that’s the message ”

UKIP came close to winning that by-election but Labour hung on in the end. You can look at this as a pivotal moment in this whole process of the culture wars that brought us Brexit and nearly destroyed the Labour party under Corbyn's leadership. The constituency was 62% Leave. I know the people and the character of these two towns and they are socially conservative and Corbyn's labour doesn't speak to them at all and I'll include many of the younger generation in that. I'd be amazed if any of the other similar towns that have gone Tory are any different. No amount of middle class Corbynistas trying redefine what the working class actually is will change the fact that these people were Labour's traditional base, if you want to understand who they are, its the people that you've created a derogatory term for - the gammon! They have to be won back for Labour to get into power.

I know that you keep saying that you accept the older white working class voters are a problem but you shrug your shoulders and say 'I dunno' i.e. we must continue project Corbyn at all costs. And no, I'm not suggesting that we simply become a more nationalist party as you keep trying to use as a slur, I'm saying that we need to accept the profound rejection of Corbynism and re-calibrate the party entirely, leave Corbynism behind completely.

I guess this is the impasse though because no matter what we say to each other our opinions are not going to change on this point. I accept though, that given the way the party is now structured that we'll likely see your vision realised but my perception is that this faction is incapable of taking on a more competent Tory leadership than May's with Cummings pulling the strings for Boris.

Good post.

Incidently, My family are from Middleton - Bowlee in actual fact. I lived there as a toddler in the early 60's when we lived with my Nan in Heywood Old Road.

 

[Sweet Square]

Do you think the way you engage the issues will endear people to your view of politics? Or do you have no interest in persuading people that your political view is worth considering?

I don't really care about that, at least not on here tbh.

I asked throughout the conversation, what should Labour do after this election defeat as I'm somewhat interested in what other labour voters think and honestly I was sort of expecting both more of a critique from a self described Blairite, e.g. If the economy is so shite when didn't Labour push harder to get the backing of papers like the FT, did Labour favour more typical middle class students, the did party promise too much and fail on marketing. The usual shtick that while I disagree with almost of it, at least its grounded. And also more of drumming over the politics people like myself have.

But no the first answer given to fixing the issues Britain faces(mass inequality, food banks, housing, homelessness, rising far right, climate change)is to blame BAME Labour members and MP's for organising and putting forward policy, e.g. educational policy with regards to teaching school children about the British empire and oddly enough the labour party having a more humane foreign policy outlook.

Edit - Sorry I meant the answer is to ''abandon left identity politics'' and to be proud of Britain(Again its pretty clear that ''abandon left identity politics'' is just a very polite and somewhat embarrassed way of saying, can we get water down anti racist politics in the party).

When this is the answer given, it clear we aren't having any sort of serious discussion on politics.

 

[sun_tzu]

is just a very polite and somewhat embarrassed way of saying, can we get water down anti racist politics in the party).

I don't want to water down the antisemitism... I want to get rid of it and the people associated with it... Scorched fecking earth policy... all of them out ...Hopefully in prison when the ehrc report comes out but at the very least named shamed prosecuted fined and out of politics for good
I'm not embarrassed about wanting the antisemites out and i don't feel a need to be polite about it

 

[hobbers]

Why has it not been put forward to ban zero hours contracts for, say, anyone over the age of 25?

 

[sun_tzu]

Why has it not been put forward to ban zero hours contracts for, say, anyone over the age of 25?

Probably because it will lead to a lot of people over 25 loosing the only work they have as people recruit younger people to retain the flexibility in their workforce would be my guess

Not that legistlation around zero hours isn't a good idea... Just it need to be more nuanced to stop it's implementation causing other issues

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I don't really care about that, at least not on here tbh.

I asked throughout the conversation, what should Labour do after this election defeat as I'm somewhat interested in what other labour voters think and honestly I was sort of expecting both more of a critique from a self described Blairite, e.g. If the economy is so shite when didn't Labour push harder to get the backing of papers like the FT, did Labour favour more typical middle class students, the did party promise too much and fail on marketing. The usual shtick that while I disagree with almost of it, at least its grounded. And also more of drumming over the politics people like myself have.

But no the first answer given to fixing the issues Britain faces(mass inequality, food banks, housing, homelessness, rising far right, climate change)is to blame BAME Labour members and MP's for organising and putting forward policy, e.g. educational policy with regards to teaching school children about the British empire and oddly enough the labour party having a more humane foreign policy outlook.

Edit - Sorry I meant the answer is to ''abandon left identity politics'' and to be proud of Britain(Again its pretty clear that ''abandon left identity politics'' is just a very polite and somewhat embarrassed way of saying, can we get water down anti racist politics in the party).

When this is the answer given, it clear we aren't having any sort of serious discussion on politics.

That’s bullshit, I linked to a post from @MikeUpNorth (which you dismissed as bullshit out of hand) that included a number of ideas but you want to focus on that particular issue so you can try to frame those wanting reforms to the party to appeal to a broad voter base as racists. I never blamed BAME politicians for losing the election. The election was lost because of the gross incompetence Corbyn and the likes of Seamus Milne.

But, what I will say is that if that issue was especially important to the BAME community and I didn’t quite appreciate that enough then I would concede to that. The broader point was to make the party more positive about Britain and patriotic because that is what an important faction of Labours traditional base identify with.

I remember quite clearly that you were one of the few Labour voters on here committed to Brexit and ending FoM when it was Jezza’s party line so it’s interesting how you‘re up for appeasing the ‘gammon’ with some anti-immigration sentiment when it’s about keeping the Jez show on the road.

Surely you realise what an utterly pointless idea getting the FT onside is, have you thought for one second how many people actually read the paper and the demographics that they come from? You have to get popular media onside but they’ll never be onside of a party of like Corbyn’s Labour. So I do apologise for not thinking of some of your daft ideas.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

So what? No reason why it’s ok for someone who stirred up racial hatred and then denied about such deals for a knighthood to be given one.

Just pointing out that it already has sunk lower.

 

[Sweet Square]

That’s bullshit, I linked to a post from @MikeUpNorth (which you dismissed as bullshit out of hand) that included a number of ideas but you want to focus on that particular issue so you can try to frame those wanting reforms to the party to appeal to a broad voter base as racists. I never blamed BAME politicians for losing the election. The election was lost because of the gross incompetence Corbyn and the likes of Seamus Milne.

Again to quote Stuart Hall

“I talked to Cruddas about this . . . I think I understand his preoccupations rather more than Maurice Glasman’s. In a constituency like Cruddas’s, where you’re fighting the far right, you have to think about those things [English identity, immigration]. But you have to be careful about how you recruit them. He came to talk to me about the New Left, which, of course, was interested in the popular language of the nation. But I had the feeling he was raiding the past, out of context, in a way. I do think Englishness is something we need to talk about, but it’s contested terrain that is structured powerfully against a contemporary radical appropriation

''Embracing Britain’s culture, national identity and pride'', ''Reassure people on immigration, multiculturalism and crime'' or ''Abandoning Identity politics'' isn't thinking carefully about this topic at all.

Two great articles here

Mad Dogs and Englishmen: Stuart Hall on Englishness

https://jacobinmag.com/2012/09/mad-dogs-and-englishmen-stuart-hall-on-englishness/

Labour must resist those who say nationalism is the way to gain power

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...king-class-support?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet

I remember quite clearly that you were one of the few Labour voters on here committed to Brexit and ending FoM when it was Jezza’s party line so it’s interesting how you‘re up for appeasing the gammon with some anti-immigration sentiment when it’s about keeping the Jez show on the road.

What are you on about ?

Labour line after the referendum result was needed(Basically a soft brexit, we would dream of having now), the party couldn't just back another referendum straight away(It would have literally destroy labour chances in 2017), the longer the crisis went on and the more clear labour members wanted a second referendum, then yeah I was happy to move. I wanted Remain to win in 2016.

Surely you realise what an utterly pointless idea getting the FT onside is, have you thought for one second how many people actually read the paper and the demographics that they come from? You have to get popular media onside but they’ll never be onside of a party of like Corbyn’s Labour. So I do apologise for not thinking of some of your daft ideas.

You've misunderstood/I've put it across badly. I gave labour wining over the FT as an examples of the argument I've heard from more centrist labour voters that Labour should have toned down the economic platform. Of course I think its a load of shite but I just using it as an example.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Good post.

Incidently, My family are from Middleton - Bowlee in actual fact. I lived there as a toddler in the early 60's when we lived with my Nan in Heywood Old Road.

That’s the more rural end of the place and where some of the old settlements were, it’s quite nice down there. The fields will go in time though, they have proposed a massive industrial estate nearby in the recent spacial framework. Very controversial because it’s doubling an existing industrial estate that has 50% occupancy! You know if the new Tory MP ripped those plans up that would help cement his position there

 

[Drifter]

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[Ubik]

Tweet

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Whoever could've seen this coming. Certainly not the Labour MPs who voted for the deal and gave him a massive win.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Whoever could've seen this coming. Certainly not the Labour MPs who voted for the deal and gave him a massive win.

Look at the replies. The complete lack of understanding of what the EU is and what minimum standards being set means and no awareness that because the UK exceeds those minimum standards undermines the whole fecking Brexit argument in the first place. The belief that somehow there's no way workers will be exploited in the future based on feck all and a spectacular misunderstanding of the last 150 years of industrial relations.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

''Embracing Britain’s culture, national identity and pride'', ''Reassure people on immigration, multiculturalism and crime'' or ''Abandoning Identity politics'' isn't thinking carefully about this topic at all.

I'm going to jump back in here (reluctantly) as you appear to be selectively quoting me, albeit I think you have good intentions. I can assure you I'm not arguing for 'pandering to racists'.

I'll quickly go point by point...

• Embrace British culture - a good thing in and of itself. Not sure if it needs much explaining but British culture is largely positive and something I would hope people in Britain can appreciate without too much controversy.
• Embrace British national identity and pride - find a unifying vision for the country, where we continue to broaden what it means to be British and forge a collective ambition for us all. I would say it's a very good thing, if done right by a skilled politician.
• Reassure people on immigration, multiculturalism and crime - Reassuring people about the things that worry or scare them is surely a good thing? 'Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime' was clever framing by New Labour, which appealed across the political spectrum and largely neutralised the issue. I'm sure a similar 'tackle the symptom and the cause' thing can be found for immigration.
• Abandon identity politics - Ok, I accept this is a controversial one, and I have heard it said that if you aren't in the straight, white, male majority, 'identity politics' is just politics. However, I do think making niche issues overly prominent in a campaign is going to be a negative, in general. Identity politics often seems to highlight the things that divide us, rather than the many, many things we have in common. The problems facing the poor and the middle class are largely unifying, across racial, gender and geographic lines. I often worry that identity politics is what has divided the working class and turned us on each other.

The final point I want to make is that my post was primarily a discussion on how to frame the Labour Party and present it to the public. It was not really about the policies we might implement. I'm up for a nerdy policy discussion at some point, as I think we're missing loads of uncontroversial ways to help improve people's lives and their economic situation, without being seen as the 'scary socialists' by advocating for waves of nationalisations.

 

[Brwned]

I don't really care about that, at least not on here tbh.

I asked throughout the conversation, what should Labour do after this election defeat as I'm somewhat interested in what other labour voters think and honestly I was sort of expecting both more of a critique from a self described Blairite, e.g. If the economy is so shite when didn't Labour push harder to get the backing of papers like the FT, did Labour favour more typical middle class students, the did party promise too much and fail on marketing. The usual shtick that while I disagree with almost of it, at least its grounded. And also more of drumming over the politics people like myself have.

But no the first answer given to fixing the issues Britain faces(mass inequality, food banks, housing, homelessness, rising far right, climate change)is to blame BAME Labour members and MP's for organising and putting forward policy, e.g. educational policy with regards to teaching school children about the British empire and oddly enough the labour party having a more humane foreign policy outlook.

Edit - Sorry I meant the answer is to ''abandon left identity politics'' and to be proud of Britain(Again its pretty clear that ''abandon left identity politics'' is just a very polite and somewhat embarrassed way of saying, can we get water down anti racist politics in the party).

When this is the answer given, it clear we aren't having any sort of serious discussion on politics.

I think quite a lot of people could demonstrate that your interpretation of abandoning left identity politics is not their interpretation of it, if you were willing to listen. But you seem more intent on talking down to people than acknowledging that your perception of the world isn't the only valid one, and gaining insight into others.

Which is all well and good as a self serving exercise to place yourself on a moral high ground, but seems quite misplaced in a political discussion. Isn't the point of political discussions to persuade people of the merits of your political views, and the ways they can improve the world? Isn't the fuel of your political engagement a desire to solve society's problems, rather than letting everyone know that you understand the solutions better than them and their motivations are immoral?

I can't see how they can successfully co-exist. Do you think your political idols succeeded by convincing the majority they were morally bankrupt while energising the minority?

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I don't really care about that, at least not on here tbh.

I asked throughout the conversation, what should Labour do after this election defeat as I'm somewhat interested in what other labour voters think and honestly I was sort of expecting both more of a critique from a self described Blairite, e.g. If the economy is so shite when didn't Labour push harder to get the backing of papers like the FT, did Labour favour more typical middle class students, the did party promise too much and fail on marketing. The usual shtick that while I disagree with almost of it, at least its grounded. And also more of drumming over the politics people like myself have.

But no the first answer given to fixing the issues Britain faces(mass inequality, food banks, housing, homelessness, rising far right, climate change)is to blame BAME Labour members and MP's for organising and putting forward policy, e.g. educational policy with regards to teaching school children about the British empire and oddly enough the labour party having a more humane foreign policy outlook.

Edit - Sorry I meant the answer is to ''abandon left identity politics'' and to be proud of Britain(Again its pretty clear that ''abandon left identity politics'' is just a very polite and somewhat embarrassed way of saying, can we get water down anti racist politics in the party).

When this is the answer given, it clear we aren't having any sort of serious discussion on politics.

If you want to know the answer to a problem you can't understand yourself the best thing to do is go to someone who did understand the problem and had the answer right.This guy makes a lot of sense to me. He predicted what has just happened and is talking a about solutions for Labour, you won't like them though.