Westminster Politics

Frosty

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Sweet Square said:
Although tbh the labour party(No matter what political wing)tends to believe in the myth of a perfect candidate. Someone who can win over both reactionaries(Voters and media outlets)while keeping true to a vague sense of progressivism. If there is a another leadership election, I'm pretty Burham will win due to having an accent and liking the stone roses. But chances are with the first 2 years, everyone will have similar complaints as they now have with Starmer.
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What I get struck by is how bad all parts of the party are at succession planning.

Particularly Blair and Brown. The fact that we had three years of Brown's Premiership and then in 2010 there was an almost evenly divided leadership election speaks to me of what you said about wanting a perfect candidate.

Compare to Cameron -> May and Thatcher -> Major
 

chris123

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Mockney said:
As ridiculous as it would be, it would admittedly be very funny if Starmer somehow managed to sensible himself to death.

I don’t think it would particularly hurt Labour either, as he probably isn’t going to win an election, and it might give them a genuine impression of integrity for whomever next to work off….

Though all of this of course depends on whether we have any hope of returning to quote unquote ‘normal’ politics, which is debatable. It’s just as likely Johnson rides this out like he always does and Labour continues to be wallet inspected by the right wing press.
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Someone compared Starmer to Ned Stark which I think is perfect.
 

Maticmaker

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Sweet Square said:
Yeah I don't really get what Starmer is trying to do
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I suspect there are one or two of his pals around him who don't know either!
Surely Starmer doesn't want to get into a 'pi**ing ( or 'holier than thou') 'no-contest' with Boris?

All he has to do is say "yes I was there, had a drink and a curry after work, will pay any fine if that action was against the law... and well, even if they don't give me a fine..... then for my penance I will pay an equivalent amount to any charity the PM stipulates.

Thank you, now can we talk about the cost of living please"
 

Mockney

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Frosty said:
What I get struck by is how bad all parts of the party are at succession planning.

Particularly Blair and Brown. The fact that we had three years of Brown's Premiership and then in 2010 there was an almost evenly divided leadership election speaks to me of what you said about wanting a perfect candidate.
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https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2016/09/the-fall-of-labours-golden-generation

Blair and Brown had different protégés but they shared a sense of mission. “We did it,” they must have thought many times as things did indeed begin to get better: “we created New Labour.”

They picked out people – clever, presentable, driven young people – who they believed would carry on their legacy when the time came. Along the way, older, gifted politicians – such as Alan Milburn, who was a difficult man but had an interesting personal story, or Estelle Morris, who was a good minister but suffered a loss of confidence – were squeezed out or gave up altogether.

We were witnessing the beginnings of a party being hollowed out and of a deepening disconnection between Labour MPs and their core supporters, which, in time, would empower the SNP in Scotland and create an opportunity for Ukip in England.

“I can give you a whole cadre of these people who weren’t the Oxbridge elite, the special advisers and all of the rest of it,” one former MP told me, “but they were politicians and they did have a sense of what voters wanted and they had a way of communicating with voters that these guys [the young MPs and special advisers] never did. Just never did. And as a result, it was a profound misunderstanding of what democratic politics was about. It’s not a seminar.”
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Buster15

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Maticmaker said:
I suspect there are one or two of his pals around him who don't know either!
Surely Starmer doesn't want to get into a 'pi**ing ( or 'holier than thou') 'no-contest' with Boris?

All he has to do is say "yes I was there, had a drink and a curry after work, will pay any fine if that action was against the law... and well, even if they don't give me a fine..... then for my penance I will pay an equivalent amount to any charity the PM stipulates.

Thank you, now can we talk about the cost of living please"
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That just would not have worked.
And it wasn't after work. It was during work.

What Starmer has done is not only the right thing to have done, it diffuses the whole 'beergate....are you going to resign Mr Starmer' narrative and actually allows him to get back into cost of living agenda.

Had he not done what he has done, that would have not been possible. And he would have been taking all the heat off the government.

I think it unlikely that he will actually be served with a FPN, so better to make his statement now than be forced to later.

Edit.
Same for Angela Rayner.
 

Berbasbullet

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Buster15 said:
That just would not have worked.
And it wasn't after work. It was during work.

What Starmer has done is not only the right thing to have done, it diffuses the whole 'beergate....are you going to resign Mr Starmer' narrative and actually allows him to get back into cost of living agenda.

Had he not done what he has done, that would have not been possible. And he would have been taking all the heat off the government.

I think it unlikely that he will actually be served with a FPN, so better to make his statement now than be forced to later.

Edit.
Same for Angela Rayner.
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Agree with this, Labour have actually gone on the offensive for a change. It allows Starmer to keep the pressure on Johnson and tries to take away the narrative of 'they're all the same'.

Just ignoring it and saying he was there but it doesn't matter would have made it worse.
 

711

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Buster15 said:
What Starmer has done is not only the right thing to have done, it diffuses the whole 'beergate....are you going to resign Mr Starmer' narrative and actually allows him to get back into cost of living agenda.

Had he not done what he has done, that would have not been possible. And he would have been taking all the heat off the government.

I think it unlikely that he will actually be served with a FPN, so better to make his statement now than be forced to later.

Edit.
Same for Angela Rayner.
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True. It is impossible for the Tories to bring up their 'hypocrisy' now without being asked 'Starmer was prepared to resign, why hasn't Johnson?', whilst it doesn't prevent Labour mentioning it again and again.

It is a pity he didn't declare this earlier, but he is obviously extremely cautious by nature and no doubt wanted to be 100% sure he was right. Given Starmer's nature Labour really needs a Prescott-type attack dog or two to go with him, that might work better for them.
 

Berbasbullet

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Widow said:
We always have a curry and a few beers at my workplace, doesn't everyone? :rolleyes:
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Find a new job then, if my work kept me in late and didn't offer a takeaway or food of some sorts id be raging.
 

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Oldyella said:
If working till one am, I would be pissed if work weren't stumping up for food and a few drinks.
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I wouldn't drink whilst at work regardless. I consider my work to be important and I'm no politician.

It's amazing how people jump to his defence but if it was Bojo, oh boy would he be getting it in the neck. I'm not a tory voter before you start.
 

Sweet Square

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Frosty said:
What I get struck by is how bad all parts of the party are at succession planning.

Particularly Blair and Brown. The fact that we had three years of Brown's Premiership and then in 2010 there was an almost evenly divided leadership election speaks to me of what you said about wanting a perfect candidate.

Compare to Cameron -> May and Thatcher -> Major
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The tories haven't needed to change since Thatcher brought in neoliberalism(Blair and Brown were a continuation of Thatcher project but with some social spending), she did all the hard work to make the future planning is easier. The goal of the tory party is to represent British capitalism and gaining legitimacy through the votes of homer owners, it's easier to organise. Where as with the Labour Party, it's a mix of different groups who have different interest from each other, from reactionary middle mangers like Starmer to radical trade unionists who want to get rid of capitalism and its voters base is just as messy.

Imo wanting the perfect candidate is down to the Party seeing itself not as representative of any part of the working class but a representative of the nation. It see itself as the party of both the boss and worker, the landlord and renter, the police officer and the black working class youth the officer is harassing. As a party it wants to be all things to all men, which leads to some very bizarre outcomes be it Corbyn talking about social justice while also wanting more funds for policing or labour members picking Starmer not because he represents their politics but because he will win over the little englander phantom that members have made up in their heads.

Maticmaker said:
I suspect there are one or two of his pals around him who don't know either!
Surely Starmer doesn't want to get into a 'pi**ing ( or 'holier than thou') 'no-contest' with Boris?

All he has to do is say "yes I was there, had a drink and a curry after work, will pay any fine if that action was against the law... and well, even if they don't give me a fine..... then for my penance I will pay an equivalent amount to any charity the PM stipulates.

Thank you, now can we talk about the cost of living please"
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I think it's too late for that as he really has gone fully into the partygate stuff. Admitting he made a mistake and not resigning would be a awful look, it would kill his strong moral law man schtick. Also Starmer has got nothing to say on the cost of living.
 

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Widow said:
I wouldn't drink whilst at work regardless. I consider my work to be important and I'm no politician.

It's amazing how people jump to his defence but if it was Bojo, oh boy would he be getting it in the neck. I'm not a tory voter before you start.
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When the police find that Starmer has committed no offence will they be 'jumping to his defence', or will they actually be finding he has committed no offence?

They have however found that Johnson definitely has committed an offence, and as he now won't declare whether he has had further fines or not he has probably committed more. See the difference?
 

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711 said:
When the police find that Starmer has committed no offence will they be 'jumping to his defence', or will they actually be finding he has committed no offence?

They have however found that Johnson definitely has committed an offence, and as he now won't declare whether he has had further fines or not he has probably committed more. See the difference?
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So you're predicting they will find no offence? Then again, with this promise of stepping down, it seems his old chums could have given him the wink on the probable outcome.
 

Pexbo

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Widow said:
So you're predicting they will find no offence? Then again, with this promise of stepping down, it seems his old chums could have given him the wink on the probable outcome.
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Yeah it definitely sounds like the establishment are working overtime to favour Starmer. The Durham police who decided Cummings was of great character and required no investigation, that announced that they don’t investigate crimes retrospectively and are now investigating Starmer, somewhat retrospectively it has to be said.
 

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Pexbo said:
Yeah it definitely sounds like the establishment are working overtime to favour Starmer. The Durham police who decided Cummings was of great character and required no investigation, that announced that they don’t investigate crimes retrospectively and are now investigating Starmer, somewhat retrospectively it has to be said.
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I've been a part of that establishment for many years, you'd be surprised.
 

Pexbo

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Widow said:
I've been a part of that establishment for many years, you'd be surprised.
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Yeah it’s all pointing towards Starmer being given a very easy ride by everyone involved.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Simbo said:
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Worth pointing out that the Daily Mail aren't even headlining Starmer's announcement. Probably because they're still being instructed on how to report it (Starmer is bullying the police into letting him off with it, or some shite).
 

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Widow said:
So you're predicting they will find no offence? Then again, with this promise of stepping down, it seems his old chums could have given him the wink on the probable outcome.
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Well worked out. I made the amazing assumption that, whether you like him or not, when it comes to the law Starmer actually knows what he's doing. I did think that a statement of the bleeding obvious, but apparently not.
 

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711 said:
Well worked out. I made the amazing assumption that, whether you like him or not, when it comes to the law Starmer actually knows what he's doing. I did think that a statement of the bleeding obvious, but apparently not.
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A very mordacious response, well done.

I also practice law for a living, I'm no leader of the CPS but I still know not to assume anything.
 

SalfordRed18

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711 said:
Leadership elections my arse. The Tories have shot themselves in the foot with this one, Starmer will come out stronger, not weaker.

Which he needs to in the bigger picture of course, but a little Tory help for now won't go amiss.
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Exactly what I think is going to happen. This stunt reeks of desperation, and the tories lose either way.
 

Smores

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Frosty said:
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Considering it was a Tory MP that requested the investigation that's an awfully dumb headline. Worse still when they themselves and cabinet ministers also backed the investigation but also for Keir to resign.

Then you have some say the media don't influence right wing voters.
 
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