Westminster Politics

[GuybrushThreepwood]

He will end up in the cabinet o the eventual winner if he plays it correctly. That will be his intention.

Ah yes that makes sense.

Maybe there have been stalking horses before, but this is the first time that I haven't heard of a candidate entering a Tory or Labour leadership contest.

I had heard of Corbyn before his 2015 leadership bid, following his anti-war speech in 2003, the fact that he was known as one of the main 'back bench rebels' voting against the Labour government etc.

While Cameron had only been in parliament for just over 4 years before becoming Tory leader, I'd also heard of him beforehand as Michael Howard had previously promoted him and considered him and Osborne to be the future of the party.

I'd have said Ken Clarke was a decent Tory, but I remember saying that to my local Labour MP, in a brief doorstep chat, and he said he couldn't forgive him for helping to disassemble the NHS back in the day.

I strongly disagree with Clarke on a lot of domestic policies issues, but I think he (and also John Major) is the sort of person that I could have a perfectly civilised and respectful disagreement with. While the state of the NHS definitely improved under Labour and after they significantly increased funding in it from the early 00s (it's no surprise that hospital waiting times decreased under Labour and patient satisfaction was at its highest when they were in office), I think during their first few years in office, Brown as Chancellor basically kept to the same levels of spending in the NHS as Clarke had previously done.

He was the only high profile Tory MP in parliament (and 1 of only 15 or 16 in total I think) to oppose the invasion of Iraq in 2003. While of course the Labour government at the time deserve the blame in terms of UK involvement there, the Tories enthusiastically supported them and in-fact wanted the military action to start even earlier (they disgracefully heckled Charles Kennedy when he made his speech opposing it). So I think that gives him bonus points.

 

[Buster15]

Reading that Osbourne strongly believes that we should be going into another austerity programme because it worked last time.
His view is that we should slash spending, especially on Defense.
We should cut corporation tax.
And move to a significantly smaller government.

Glad he is not an MP anymore.

 

[GDaly95]

Reading that Osbourne strongly believes that we should be going into another austerity programme because it worked last time.
His view is that we should slash spending, especially on Defense.
We should cut corporation tax.
And move to a significantly smaller government.

Glad he is not an MP anymore.

Maybe with the exception of the bolded, is this not the stance of pretty much every candidate running for Tory leadership?

 

[Pexbo]

Margaret Thatcher from April 2013 to present.

I typed this out literally word for word yesterday and didn’t hit post

 

[Mart1974]

I typed this out literally word for word yesterday and didn’t hit post

I was hoping someone was going to ask "Who is your favourite Tory leader alive or dead".....

 

[Maticmaker]

I was too young to have any memory or recollection of his time in power. I just feel when he has spoken up in recent years he seems a bit more balanced and palatable.

What Tory’s would you both say are more palatable?

Of the current lot I would say (ironically) the one who is not standing... Ben Wallace!

Most of the Tories I have met or observed are bound together like a tribe, you have the rich Eton lot etc. and the ''hard heady' (usually self made) business entrepreneur, its all about self reliance and doing things for yourself. Many of the staunchest Tory's are people who have over come many hurdles in life and believe if they can do it so can everyone else. Compassion is not a common trait (remember Theresa and her 'nasty party' jibe) among Tories, but there are some.
Competition within the party is fierce especially for the top jobs, no quarter will be asked or given in this leadership fight and the winner knows there will be no forgiveness if they get it wrong.

After the blood bath of disposing of Margaret Thatcher, Major slipped in under the wire, to become PM, but by then the ruminations about Europe had taken hold and the fight to death (eventually played out with Brexit) started in earnest in the Tory party. Major was not strong enough and the public was fed up with the Tory's and with the magical touch of the Blair Era calling, John Major paid the penalty. (isn't hindsight wonderful!!)

In the next GE the public's displeasure with the Tory's is Starmer's best weapon against them, as long as he does nothing silly and keeps his volatile MP's quiet. The Tories will need another Margaret Thatcher to avoid disaster.

 

[RedChip]

I haven't seen a single news outlet challenge them on the implications of their lower taxes. We already have health and education hanging by a thread in many cases.

To be fair, I thought both Hunt and Javid were robustly challenged on this in their interviews yesterday. And essentially both claimed cutting taxes will boost growth, ergo blah blah - basically, usual trickle down bollocks.

What is really apparent is how out of any new, cogent ideas the Tories are. Maybe it is just the dearth of talent in the current Tory party, but, by God, it does seem like we witnessing the wake of an institution.

 

[Rado_N]

Margaret Thatcher from April 2013 to present.

 

[nimic]

I was hoping someone was going to ask "Who is your favourite Tory leader alive or dead".....

This you?

 

[Mart1974]

This you?

My mother was a weedgie, lovely to hear someone condemning Thatcher in that accent.

 

[Buster15]

Maybe with the exception of the bolded, is this not the stance of pretty much every candidate running for Tory leadership?

Are they all advocating an austerity programme?
And if was the fact that Osbourne believes that the austerity programme worked when it didn't.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

It was one thing for Cameron and Osbourne to come and in and lie about needing austerity because at least they could shift blame onto Labour just being in power for 13 years.

It's quite another to come in after your party has already been in power for 12 years and then try and claim look the economy is fecked, we need austerity again, just try and forget we've been the ones in charge for 12 years ok?

 

[horsechoker]

It was one thing for Cameron and Osbourne to come and in and lie about needing austerity because at least they could shift blame onto Labour just being in power for 13 years.

It's quite another to come in after your party has already been in power for 12 years and then try and claim look the economy is fecked, we need austerity again, just try and forget we've been the ones in charge for 12 years ok?

Remoaners are the new escape goat

 

[GloryHunter07]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...m-zahawi-joins-liz-truss-in-pledging-tax-cuts

Zahawi wants to fund tax cuts with 20% cuts across all public services.. What the actual feck is he smoking?

Sorry the library is shut so that James Dyson can get richer.

 

[Adisa]

The country owes it to itself to get rid of this party next year.

 

[VorZakone]

One has to ask the question why these people are so horny for a leadership position. You'd think the responsibilities and all would be a turnoff. But no, they're so desperate for it.

 

[Jippy]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...m-zahawi-joins-liz-truss-in-pledging-tax-cuts

Zahawi wants to fund tax cuts with 20% cuts across all public services.. What the actual feck is he smoking?

Sorry the library is shut so that James Dyson can get richer.

His team have amended it saying he meant cut 20% of civil servants, not departmental budgets.
That still must surely reduce the quality of loads of public services though.

 

[Doracle]

To be fair, I thought both Hunt and Javid were robustly challenged on this in their interviews yesterday. And essentially both claimed cutting taxes will boost growth, ergo blah blah - basically, usual trickle down bollocks.

What is really apparent is how out of any new, cogent ideas the Tories are. Maybe it is just the dearth of talent in the current Tory party, but, by God, it does seem like we witnessing the wake of an institution.

Im not close enough to this currently to have read into it but how do Labour’s policies compare? Are they pushing for higher taxes or how do they get around the problem of tax-cuts/spending?

 

[Maticmaker]

With Energy bills topping £3,000 per year (possibly leading to civil unrest) with the likelihood that all Public Service Unions are carrying out planned programmed of selected 'strike' (causing most disruption) action, or 'working to rule', or on 'go slow' directives by Autumn; with inflation nudging 12-15%, in the new year, and even threats of a new wave of Covid....who exactly would want to be running the country?

Will it be the Tories or Labour that plan to lose the next GE?

 

[GloryHunter07]

His team have amended it saying he meant cut 20% of civil servants, not departmental budgets.
That still must surely reduce the quality of loads of public services though.

What could possibly go wrong..

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Reading that Osbourne strongly believes that we should be going into another austerity programme because it worked last time.
His view is that we should slash spending, especially on Defense.
We should cut corporation tax.
And move to a significantly smaller government.

Glad he is not an MP anymore.

Bring back austerity? It never fecking ended.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

One has to ask the question why these people are so horny for a leadership position. You'd think the responsibilities and all would be a turnoff. But no, they're so desperate for it.

Power. They don't take responsibility for anything bad, it's always someone else's fault - and the electorate believe them.

 

[horsechoker]

With Energy bills topping £3,000 per year (possibly leading to civil unrest) with the likelihood that all Public Service Unions are carrying out planned programmed of selected 'strike' (causing most disruption) action, or 'working to rule', or on 'go slow' directives by Autumn; with inflation nudging 12-15%, in the new year, and even threats of a new wave of Covid....who exactly would want to be running the country?

Will it be the Tories or Labour that plan to lose the next GE?

I don't believe either side will plan to lose an election.

 

[Kentonio]

Of the current lot I would say (ironically) the one who is not standing... Ben Wallace!

Most of the Tories I have met or observed are bound together like a tribe, you have the rich Eton lot etc. and the ''hard heady' (usually self made) business entrepreneur, its all about self reliance and doing things for yourself. Many of the staunchest Tory's are people who have over come many hurdles in life and believe if they can do it so can everyone else. Compassion is not a common trait (remember Theresa and her 'nasty party' jibe) among Tories, but there are some.
Competition within the party is fierce especially for the top jobs, no quarter will be asked or given in this leadership fight and the winner knows there will be no forgiveness if they get it wrong.

After the blood bath of disposing of Margaret Thatcher, Major slipped in under the wire, to become PM, but by then the ruminations about Europe had taken hold and the fight to death (eventually played out with Brexit) started in earnest in the Tory party. Major was not strong enough and the public was fed up with the Tory's and with the magical touch of the Blair Era calling, John Major paid the penalty. (isn't hindsight wonderful!!)

In the next GE the public's displeasure with the Tory's is Starmer's best weapon against them, as long as he does nothing silly and keeps his volatile MP's quiet. The Tories will need another Margaret Thatcher to avoid disaster.

The euro-sceptic in-fighting hurt them, but the biggest problem was simply that they reached the point governments always seem to after a decade where they were so self-entitled and getting hit by so many scandals and sleaze stories that the public had just had enough. Today feels like history just repeating itself. I don't think there's any chance at all of them winning the next election barring some huge unforeseen event like a war with Russia.

 

[Kentonio]

I don't believe either side will plan to lose an election.

No chance at all. Its the kind of things pundits always speculate about but which never, ever happen. Politicians short term ambitions are always too strong.

 

[horsechoker]

No chance at all. Its the kind of things pundits always speculate about but which never, ever happen. Politicians short term ambitions are always too strong.

Moreover, the party runs the risk of finding itself out of power for a long time.

 

[Kentonio]

Moreover, the party runs the risk of finding itself out of power for a long time.

This is true. Incumbents generally have a significant advantage.

 

[MUW4Eva]

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[Pexbo]

[/QUOTE]

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You have t give Starmer credit. It’s been clear for a long time his approach has been to give them enough rope to hang themselves and it was accused of being too passive.

It looks like the right move at the moment I just hope to god he leans to the left if he actually gets into power.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

You have t give Starmer credit. It’s been clear for a long time his approach has been to give them enough rope to hang themselves and it was accused of being too passive.

It looks like the right move at the moment I just hope to god he leans to the left if he actually gets into power.
[/QUOTE]
He won't.

I think if someone like Sunak etc is appointed Tory leader, Starmer will need to be much less passive and more policy specific.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

The most shocking thing about the Andrea Jenkyns stuff is the fact that she gave a good character statement to a Tory supporter who was found guilty of threatening behaviour towards a Labour MP.

Im surprised not many media outlets have been reporting on that to be honest. When you’re out there giving positive character statements to the police on members of the public threatening MPs then you have no leg to stand on when you start receiving some abuse yourself.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Margaret Thatcher from April 2013 to present.

 

[villain]

If Labour get in power now, right before a likely recession they will be lumbered with the schtick that they aren't the Party that can handle the Economy. (The British public are dumb with short memories on anything that isn't printed in The Sun or Daily Mail)
And all the other dominoes that fall will be lumbered with them too.

I don't really see a scenario where anyone "wins" from being in power right now, things aren't gonna get better for the public soon - and it could shape narratives for a number of years to come.
Plus Labour have shown to not have much in the way of policies that are different than the Tories so far.

 

[RedChip]

Im not close enough to this currently to have read into it but how do Labour’s policies compare? Are they pushing for higher taxes or how do they get around the problem of tax-cuts/spending?

No idea; not heard anything concrete from Labour on this.

 

[Sweet Square]

I typed this out literally word for word yesterday and didn’t hit post

 

[Drifter]

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Waste of time

 

[GDaly95]

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Waste of time

Is it not a bit of a moral victory to have Johnson kicked out this week?

Or do you mean its a waste of time in the sense that they wouldn't get the VONC through anyway?

 

[Pexbo]

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Waste of time

Why?

 

[F-Red]

Why?

Probably to target the Tory backbenchers, they were quick enough to want him out but if expected in that that they vote for him in a confidence vote, it will just make them look like hypocrites.

 

[Adisa]

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Waste of time

No it's not