Westminster Politics

Frosty

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Yes they do, they get to vote for them (or not) at the election.
However what voters are not told at the election is that when parties have to negotiate for power/seat at the table (whether in smoke-filled rooms or not) about the terms of the 'horse trading' that goes on and so nobody outside the room knows the real price paid. How many of the Lib-Dem voters would have changed their minds if they knew their prize policy on University fees was to be scuppered, so their leaders got a seat at the Government table.
I appreciate the response. However, you and I have no say about manifestos when they are drafted. We get a choice at a FPTP election, and very often we have to compromise. You can see the impacts of that in the Keir Starmer thread. I suspect there are many there who may vote for Labour whilst holding their noses.

But FPTP does not prevent backroom deals.

We had the Tory-Lib Dem coalition for 5 years, but also the Tory-DUP pact in 2017, which no-one voted for or had a say in. Major's government was a minority one in the 90s for several years and had to strike backroom deals with the Ulster Unionists on a number of votes. Wilson and Callaghan's Governments in the 1970s were propped up by Liberals and Nationalists, and again many deals were struck. Not to mention the two wartime coalitions we had, and the decade long National Government of the 1930s, again based on loose coalitions, as was Lloyd George's post-WW2 Government.

I also suspect that many Lib Dem voters vote on principle, but are you saying the party shouldn't have accepted their one change at Government in a century? If we accept that FPTP does not eliminate backroom deals (not to mention the fact that every government decides not to pursue some manifesto commitments, as well as introducing legislation which wasn't on the manifesto, both examples of which involve backroom arrangements), then it is not so different than PR.

Except that the PR coalitions may represent more of the electorate than the 30% that voted Tory in 2019, or the 25% that voted Labour in 2005.

But that isn't enough. We need dedicated civics classes from an early age so we have an educated citizenry, not just understanding our electoral system, but also how taxes work, what the constitution is and how it is supposed to operate, and how to vote and what local and central government is. They do so in the USA. Ireland and Switzerland are also countries with a lot more general awareness in the population, allowing them to undertake direct democracy.

Voting should also be made compulsory, like Australia, with a dedicated option on the ballot saying "none of you bastards".

Finally, we already fund opposition parties through Short money. I would like to see a proper clampdown on the external funding of political parties, with taxpayer funding set through statute.

Hopefully with those pipe dreams, if we ever have another electoral national vote on voting systems or (god forbid) the EU, hopefully we will be in a slightly less of a clusterfeck when the outcome is announced.
 

Maticmaker

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Voting should also be made compulsory, like Australia, with a dedicated option on the ballot saying "none of you bastards".
This is the crux of the matter.

Throughout my life (working and social) I have sat on numerous committees, those that are designed/meant to represent a wide scope of interests usually managed to agree on very little, just the 'tit-bits' that no one really agreed or disagreed with. Numerous opportunities went begging, because of this type of decision making and the usual "A horse designed by a committee results in a camel" outcomes applied, in many instances.

Because of the lack of compulsion to vote, many can't be bothered, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for such a constituency. I do agree some sort of PR might help, in achieving 'balance' but at the end of the day my feeling that if we believe in democracy then it is that the majority view that should hold sway, even when its a tiny one. Limits can be put on voting rules/matters to stop excesses, but that must not allow minorities to hold the majority to ransom.

Of course there is 'horse trading' after the event (elections), but manifestos should have a coding attached to the policies, A= Policy that will go through as is, if we win; B= Policies we are willing to discuss alterations/minor changes with others if they are willing; C= Policies we prefer, but we are open to suggestions on modifications.

I also agree there is a need for constitutional change as well as political; however I fear that is so heavily 'geared' in the UK to retaining an unwritten constitution, based on 'precedence', its unlikely ever to occur.
 

Frosty

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Octopus Energy asks government for £1bn to buy Bulb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62367992

Octopus Energy is seeking £1bn in taxpayer funding to take over collapsed rival Bulb from the UK government.

Bulb, which went bust last November, is currently being run by the state through the energy regulator Ofgem.

The £1bn funding is part of a package being discussed where Octopus would also pay more than £100m for Bulb's customers as well as entering a profit-sharing deal with the government.

The government declined to comment "due to commercial sensitivity".

The state bailout of Bulb is already expected to cost the taxpayer around £2bn by next year. But the Office for Budget Responsibility, the government's independent forecaster, said in March: "Given the volatility in global energy markets, there remains uncertainty around the final cost."

It is understood that the additional £1bn being sought by Octopus, which was first reported by Sky News, would be paid back in full over time.

It would be used to purchase energy in advance through a practice known as hedging.

Octopus Energy declined to comment.

Since Bulb's collapse in November, the price of wholesale gas has jumped by 78%, exacerbated by Russia's war in Ukraine and the Kremlin's decision to reduce energy supplies to Europe.

------------------------

Nationalisation, British style.
 

Vidyoyo

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Octopus Energy asks government for £1bn to buy Bulb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62367992

Octopus Energy is seeking £1bn in taxpayer funding to take over collapsed rival Bulb from the UK government.

Bulb, which went bust last November, is currently being run by the state through the energy regulator Ofgem.

The £1bn funding is part of a package being discussed where Octopus would also pay more than £100m for Bulb's customers as well as entering a profit-sharing deal with the government.

The government declined to comment "due to commercial sensitivity".

The state bailout of Bulb is already expected to cost the taxpayer around £2bn by next year. But the Office for Budget Responsibility, the government's independent forecaster, said in March: "Given the volatility in global energy markets, there remains uncertainty around the final cost."

It is understood that the additional £1bn being sought by Octopus, which was first reported by Sky News, would be paid back in full over time.

It would be used to purchase energy in advance through a practice known as hedging.

Octopus Energy declined to comment.

Since Bulb's collapse in November, the price of wholesale gas has jumped by 78%, exacerbated by Russia's war in Ukraine and the Kremlin's decision to reduce energy supplies to Europe.

------------------------

Nationalisation, British style.
Absolutely in favour of this as long as Octopus agree to pay interest on the loan within a minimum period and the Gov get a share of future profits.

Anything else is pitiful.
 

Reiver

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Absolutely in favour of this as long as Octopus agree to pay interest on the loan within a minimum period and the Gov get a share of future profits.

Anything else is pitiful.
Will probably be sold under valuation, with no interest on loan, and no stake of future profit, so Government friends and donors can make a nice profit.
 

Fluctuation0161

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It does when your Party are the FPTP!

The one strong point of this system is whoever achieves that objective gets first crack at forming a Government and if they have the overall working majority they can start to implement their manifesto. Power is truly in the hands of the people or if you prefer 'democracy'.... any other system that relies on parties 'scratching around' to reach agreement with others tends to mean that deals are done behind closed doors, or as they use to say in 'smoke-filled rooms'. Where the public only gets to know the final outcome and everyone taking part is 'whipped' into secrecy.

Proportional representation sounds a fairer bet, but in its purest form, would mean umpteen smaller parties all trumpeting their own requirements,' talk-talk,' beer and sandwiches all round and gatherings which would make the recent party-gate events look mild and there would still be a good chance that nothing ever got done.

Its true that under FPTP, having 80+ seat majorities are also to be decried. Thankfully Boris didn't get to implement the worse excesses of his overwhelming margin of power, but only because the red-wall Tory MP's had one eye on the next GE.

To exercise power you have to win it, to win it you have to 'follow the Herd' otherwise they will leave you behind. Brexit has given many a taste for 'exercising their muscles' not because of its objectives, but how it operated, i.e. a massive pressure group made up mostly by people who felt (albeit for different reasons) completely p***ed-off they threatened to apply political 'weight' at a single point 'weak point' (in this case) the heart of the Tory party who realised they could be obliterated if they didn't grab the Brexit mantle from Farage and Co. Opportunists such as Farage and Boris read these signs ages before the rest of us.

At last Keir Starmer seems to realise that he cannot afford to let it happen again and is waking up to the necessity of''walking the line'.
If you truly believe the bolded then you've not been paying attention.

FPTP is barely democratic at all. It is an antiquated system which by design keeps the power swinging to the right for the majority of elections. When a more progressive party do finally get a chance at government PR would be a much more representative system.
 

jeff_goldblum

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It does when your Party are the FPTP!

The one strong point of this system is whoever achieves that objective gets first crack at forming a Government and if they have the overall working majority they can start to implement their manifesto. Power is truly in the hands of the people or if you prefer 'democracy'.... any other system that relies on parties 'scratching around' to reach agreement with others tends to mean that deals are done behind closed doors, or as they use to say in 'smoke-filled rooms'. Where the public only gets to know the final outcome and everyone taking part is 'whipped' into secrecy.
But it isn't at all is it? Because FPTP doesn't deliver governments which represent the majority of voters.

In extreme cases, like in 1951, it's possible for FPTP to deliver majority governments to parties which received fewer votes than the 'losers'. In most cases it delivers majorities to parties who received a plurality of the vote, even when those parties received nowhere near 50% of the vote. For example, Labour in 2005 and the Tories in 2015 both formed majority governments on 35% and 36.8% of the popular vote respectively.

In the latter case, that 36.8% handed Cameron the mandate he required to call the Brexit referendum.
 
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justsomebloke

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It does when your Party are the FPTP!

The one strong point of this system is whoever achieves that objective gets first crack at forming a Government and if they have the overall working majority they can start to implement their manifesto. Power is truly in the hands of the people or if you prefer 'democracy'.... any other system that relies on parties 'scratching around' to reach agreement with others tends to mean that deals are done behind closed doors, or as they use to say in 'smoke-filled rooms'. Where the public only gets to know the final outcome and everyone taking part is 'whipped' into secrecy.

Proportional representation sounds a fairer bet, but in its purest form, would mean umpteen smaller parties all trumpeting their own requirements,' talk-talk,' beer and sandwiches all round and gatherings which would make the recent party-gate events look mild and there would still be a good chance that nothing ever got done.

Its true that under FPTP, having 80+ seat majorities are also to be decried. Thankfully Boris didn't get to implement the worse excesses of his overwhelming margin of power, but only because the red-wall Tory MP's had one eye on the next GE.

To exercise power you have to win it, to win it you have to 'follow the Herd' otherwise they will leave you behind. Brexit has given many a taste for 'exercising their muscles' not because of its objectives, but how it operated, i.e. a massive pressure group made up mostly by people who felt (albeit for different reasons) completely p***ed-off they threatened to apply political 'weight' at a single point 'weak point' (in this case) the heart of the Tory party who realised they could be obliterated if they didn't grab the Brexit mantle from Farage and Co. Opportunists such as Farage and Boris read these signs ages before the rest of us.

At last Keir Starmer seems to realise that he cannot afford to let it happen again and is waking up to the necessity of''walking the line'.
I have to smile a little at this discussion about how a PR-based system would work, as if conjecture based on personal experience of committee work and general speculation was the only way to answer that question. Most democracies have PR, so possibly one could judge how a PR-based system works on the basis of their experience instead?

It is a question of some complexity that a lot of things play into though - it's how the different elements of a country's whole political culture and institutional and legal setup come together that gives us the observable result, and it's hard to pick out precisely how the mode of representation plays into it. So, to some extent what works in a certain way in one country might not work in the same way in another. But I do think some valid general points can be made.

FPTP and PR causes political parties to become very different things. In a PR system, parties tend to become highly representational tribes - built around a shared general political vision, or sometimes other things (regional or ethnic identity, defining single issues etc). Generally speaking, if there's a sizeable group or constituency of opinion that isn't well reflected by one of the existing parties, this will tend to generate a new party. This means that political parties tend to be genuine communities of shared views or shared interests in a way that is not the case in a FPTP system - if there's too much tension within an existing party, one wing will tend to peel off.

With FPTP, the threshold of meaningful success for a new party is so high that this generally does not happen, because there's not much point. Instead, you get huge parties that really are not communities of shared belief in any meaningful sense, but rather either organisational machines built to pursue power on the basis of politics that are really very vague and shifting, or broad church confederacies of various groups that really do not agree on enough things to co-exist constructively, but who have nowhere else to go. In both cases, where parties stand politically tends to reflect which particular faction is currently on top, rather than any broader consensus in the party (let alone its voters).

Generally speaking, a FPTP system tends to foster a polarised and oppositional political culture, whereas PR tends to foster a political culture much more oriented towards co-operation and consensus. It's not straightforward, and is affected by lots of things: For instance, other traits of the US system has traditionally stimulated cross-party co-operation despite a FPTP system, though this is by now showing signs of breaking down. Whereas France has a highly polarised political tradition despite having at least partially a PR system (and it was arguably even more so back when they had a much clearer PR system than they have now).

It's an easy temptation to think that the advantage of FPTP is that it results in more efficient governments that can get things done more easily, while the advantage of PR is, more nebulously, that views are represented more fairly. But this I would argue is not necessarily so. Because societies really aren't built and shaped by individual decisions, or in four years. If you want to build and shape something, and not just end up with whatever's the net result of a jumble of disjointed and, over time, contradictory decisions, it requires a consistent sense of general direction and design over decades. This requires that there is some degree of shared thinking among the major political parties, and also that there is an ability to sit down and agree on a long-term arrangement occasionally. Certain things - pension or tax reform, defence investment, large infrastructure programs - simply cannot be solved well on the basis on one group of people doing their thing for a few years and then another group of people doing a different thing for a few years. Most places, you get broad consensus agreements in place for such things, but that simply does not happen in the UK. And if you can't do that when you really need to, it hurts you.

My point here is that every democratic system actually needs to be able to do cross-party policy making and consensus-based politics, at least occasionally. A system that can't, or doesn't even try to, is simply dysfunctional. It will be faced with problems it can't solve well, or at all. Given that, is it really an efficiency advantage to have an electoral system that allows the ruling party to just ignore cross-party co-operation, in many cases? At the very least, that means that when you do end up with a situation that requires this, the system isn't really equipped to handle it. In a PR system, this is a matter of day-to-day necessity, and the whole apparatus of government evolves around that. Clearly, it is quite feasible to govern well and solve problems efficiently on that basis. Indeed, if you look around the Western world and ask yourself who seems to have gotten things more or less right and have a political system few regards as being in a state of crisis, most of those you'd name have PR. On the other hand, if you're picking the ones that are obviously in deep trouble, a couple of big FPTP countries are well ahead in that queue.

I'd question your use of the term "back-room" deals here. What does that mean, exactly? If we're talking about shady dealings of various kinds that does not stand the light of day, I really do not think a FPTP system make those less likely or common - if anything, the opposite. If you're talking about agreements between political parties, then I think your terminology is weird, and also that there's little reason to think there is less of this in an FPTP system.
 
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Jippy

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Octopus Energy asks government for £1bn to buy Bulb

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62367992

Octopus Energy is seeking £1bn in taxpayer funding to take over collapsed rival Bulb from the UK government.

Bulb, which went bust last November, is currently being run by the state through the energy regulator Ofgem.

The £1bn funding is part of a package being discussed where Octopus would also pay more than £100m for Bulb's customers as well as entering a profit-sharing deal with the government.

The government declined to comment "due to commercial sensitivity".

The state bailout of Bulb is already expected to cost the taxpayer around £2bn by next year. But the Office for Budget Responsibility, the government's independent forecaster, said in March: "Given the volatility in global energy markets, there remains uncertainty around the final cost."

It is understood that the additional £1bn being sought by Octopus, which was first reported by Sky News, would be paid back in full over time.

It would be used to purchase energy in advance through a practice known as hedging.

Octopus Energy declined to comment.

Since Bulb's collapse in November, the price of wholesale gas has jumped by 78%, exacerbated by Russia's war in Ukraine and the Kremlin's decision to reduce energy supplies to Europe.

------------------------

Nationalisation, British style.
So the plan is to use the money to hedge future gas supplies now, right at the top of the market? That sounds a surefire way to need a further taxpayer bailout in a year or two.
 

Frosty

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So the plan is to use the money to hedge future gas supplies now, right at the top of the market? That sounds a surefire way to need a further taxpayer bailout in a year or two.
Yep, and it is such a good idea that apparently they can get no private investment for it, meaning it will be all of us that cover the failure.
 

Pexbo

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Yep, and it is such a good idea that apparently they can get no private investment for it, meaning it will be all of us that cover the failure.
Privatise profits, nationalise losses. Tory socialism.
 

Maticmaker

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If you truly believe the bolded then you've not been paying attention.
If Boris had been around for the run up to the next GE, we would have seen not only the 'low hanging fruit' gathered in by him and his pals, but the trees would be ripped up as well! Some Tories feared they were heading towards a colossal defeat at the next GE (some still believe that) and they would have used Boris to activate a 'scorched earth' departure.

Ben Wallace with his military background knows there is a time to fight and a time to retreat, that's why he didn't enter the race to replace Boris.

Starmer keeps his nerve, he should scrape in, if he can find a few good clearly costed policies to get us through for the next few years, and he can get something in Scotland, then he could have the highest number of Labour seats at Westminster in years.

But it isn't at all is it? Because FPTP doesn't deliver governments which represent the majority of voters.
No but it generally delivers the majority of votes needed to govern

as if conjecture based on personal experience of committee work and general speculation was the only way to answer that question
Of course not, but its one way to answer that question!

This means that political parties tend to be genuine communities of shared views or shared interests in a way that is not the case in a FPTP system -
Yes, but who decides which community is on the 'front row' and who is on the 'back row' when the 'goodies' are handout,?'Leveling' up of any kind would be practicably impossible(probably is now, given where we are) also how this country thinks e.g." every Englishman's home is his castle" would create even more local divisions. People tend to band together in large political parties like the Tories and Labour, because these are the 'heavyweights' who have a chance of getting something done, lots of smaller minority groups scrambling to reach a consensus would be potentially disastrous, we would finish up having more changes of governments than in Italy (Scusi!)
 

justsomebloke

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If Boris had been around for the run up to the next GE, we would have seen not only the 'low hanging fruit' gathered in by him and his pals, but the trees would be ripped up as well! Some Tories feared they were heading towards a colossal defeat at the next GE (some still believe that) and they would have used Boris to activate a 'scorched earth' departure.

Ben Wallace with his military background knows there is a time to fight and a time to retreat, that's why he didn't enter the race to replace Boris.

Starmer keeps his nerve, he should scrape in, if he can find a few good clearly costed policies to get us through for the next few years, and he can get something in Scotland, then he could have the highest number of Labour seats at Westminster in years.



No but it generally delivers the majority of votes needed to govern



Of course not, but its one way to answer that question!



Yes, but who decides which community is on the 'front row' and who is on the 'back row' when the 'goodies' are handout,?'Leveling' up of any kind would be practicably impossible(probably is now, given where we are) also how this country thinks e.g." every Englishman's home is his castle" would create even more local divisions. People tend to band together in large political parties like the Tories and Labour, because these are the 'heavyweights' who have a chance of getting something done, lots of smaller minority groups scrambling to reach a consensus would be potentially disastrous, we would finish up having more changes of governments than in Italy (Scusi!)
1. You don't have any fewer or less influential minority interest groups just because you have fewer parties. What you have is minority groups scrambling to control one of the big parties. Which leads to things like Corbynites ruling the Labor party, and 160,000 mostly well-established elderly landowners now getting to decide what the tens of millions of people who voted conservative at the last election actually turned out to vote for.

2. Sorry, but I see little to no evidence that you're actually getting anything more done, or getting it done better, than most countries with a PR system.

3. Neither FPTP nor PR is a guarantee of a well-functioning political system. But Italy is hardly typical of a PR-based system. You may want to consider f.e. Germany or the Scandinavian countries as examples of PR systems that generally have been getting things done over the past couple of decades.

4. Unless you simply ignore the wider picture around Europe, there's no basis for assuming that a more consensus-oriented form of politics leads to chaos and an inability to get things done. Rather the opposite, actually. A key part of consensus-oriented politics however is that it is not approached by the parties as a blind scramble for sectional interest, but rather on the basis that a good solution is one where everyone's interests are considered, and where no one is left too unhappy. In which case you start thinking of "compromise" as something good, rather than as being forced to accept an inferior solution - in other words a form of failure, which in my experience is how people tend to think of it in the UK. :) Also, it's centred on some sort of notion of it being in everyone's interest that society as a whole ends up better off, as opposed to it all being about which particular group gets to stand in the front row for handouts.

All this being said, I'm not arguing that switching to a PR system would instantly transform the UKs political culture. On a comparative basis, it seems obvious to me that that culture is extremely oppositional, and while the electoral system is an obvious part of the reason why it is, there are also many others, shaped and strengthened by centuries of political institutions evolving on this basis. Including how Britons fundamentally think about politics and society. It seems to me very possible that a PR-based electoral system applied to such a political culture won't necessarily be very functional either. But if I were you, I'd worry about the limitations that clearly imposes on UK politics and its ability to address and solve hard problems - as well as how well it'll withstand the new form of politics driven by social media and other factors that is in itself driving all democratic systems in a more polarised direction.
 

Maticmaker

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What you have is minority groups scrambling to control one of the big parties.
Yes, as they might see it for the great good...and the 'greater good' is being in power, part of a government that can accomplish things and whatever their shade of opinion within their party, all MP's are subjected to, or subject themselves to, the party Whips.

When you have a number of differing parties, trying to participate in governance each with its own sense of being, then even more boundaries are created. Also even if some are broadly aligned on the left, on the right, or even in the centre, they are subject to their own membership rules and regulations, operation procedures; etc; hence you have the same leadership machinations/intrigues as you have in the larger parties, the same objections/ differing emphasis in policy matters, the same tendency to want to 'deal'; inertia in a government is the worst sin of all at times, and when there are more than two parties in any coalition, inertia is much more likely to occur.

It is true that some countries, their population mix, their constitutions, their geography and even their history may make a 'better fit' for PR than others, but as I said before its my view that without a written constitution, that involves more than precedent, and still retaining an 'island race' mentality, which over the centuries the majority of immigrants embrace, then simple PR is not the solution for the UK. Its possible, e.g. if the UK were to break up, then PR lite or PR+ might be an answer, but at the present I don't see that occurring.
 
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jeff_goldblum

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No but it generally delivers the majority of votes needed to govern
This has nothing to do with it being democratic and representing the will of the people though, which was the thrust of your argument. The big argument for FPTP isn't that it delivers outcomes which reflect the will of the people, it's that, as you've alluded to, it's meant to deliver strong, stable governments who can prosecute their agendas quickly and unhindered by the opposition.

The reason its stupid now is that it was introduced at a time in the late 19th century when the pool of people who had the ability to decide the outcome of an election was pretty homogenous - rich, property-owning men. In that situation, where basically everyone involved in politics shared an interest in preserving the status quo, a system which delivers strong governments capable of acting quickly to protect those shared interests, which favours established political parties and tends to disadvantage new ones (like those pesky trade unionists) and in which results can be very easily manipulated depending on how you draw the constituency boundaries, was exactly what the political class of the time wanted.

Nowadays, in a country where diverse groups with disparate opinions and interests expect to be equally treated by the electoral system, it's a millstone around the country's neck. It's not the only reason the country is fecked, but it's a big contributing factor to it.
 

Stobzilla

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So the plan is to use the money to hedge future gas supplies now, right at the top of the market? That sounds a surefire way to need a further taxpayer bailout in a year or two.
How aren't we in the streets with torches over this? This is the most blatant lining of pockets with public money since the last one.
 

Maticmaker

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This has nothing to do with it being democratic and representing the will of the people though, which was the thrust of your argument. The big argument for FPTP isn't that it delivers outcomes which reflect the will of the people, it's that, as you've alluded to, it's meant to deliver strong, stable governments who can prosecute their agendas quickly and unhindered by the opposition.
This is exactly what its meant to do and is everything to do with democracy and the defined will of the people.

Once a government is elected it has to be able to govern. An official opposition does just that and opposes, and except where there are massive (80+seat) majorities can do so effectively when there is genuine doubt/disagreement about a specific policy being pursued by the Government of the day.
I do agree that massive majorities such as we have seen with Boris/Tories can reduce effective opposition and invests too much power in a Government, however as we have seen such sizeable majorities tend to breed complacency and that leads to collapse.

Without (preferably written) constitutional change, political PR type changes will not bring better representation to the process of governing in the UK. Maybe a 'third way', arguably tried by Roy Jenkins & Co. with the Social Democrats might work now, it was perhaps a head of its time previously. However having a myriad of small parties who in theory coalesce around some ideal of broad political representation is a non-starter as far as effective governance is concerned..

There is also the 'sticky' point about how to effect both Constitutional and Political change, no Government having been elected is going to even try to make such changes...they have enough to do dealing with things like climate change, energy costs, food shortages and mass immigration/migration issues, to name but a few.
 

Jippy

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Oops.

Ms Truss initially promised to save up to £8.8bn annually by “adjusting” officials’ salaries to match living costs in the areas where they work.

But aides were forced to amend the claim after experts at the Institute for Government pointed out that the foreign secretary’s target was almost as much as the total annual civil service pay bill of around £9bn.
 

Smores

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I'm all for civil servants getting more money but it's not exactly unusual for area based pay. Is that not already a feature of the civil service today? Surely London staff aren't getting the same pay as Hull?
 

That'sHernandez

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I'm all for civil servants getting more money but it's not exactly unusual for area based pay. Is that not already a feature of the civil service today? Surely London staff aren't getting the same pay as Hull?
It is already a feature, jobs are always advertised as 2-4k more in London.
 

Buster15

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