The alternative is the Government getting off scot free once again and the normalisation of their awful behaviour continues. This time the original offence might be relatively minor, next time it could be more serious and they once again take this gaslighting approach. I’ve got absolutely no problem with the press sustaining their pressure on this, it’s the most important function of a free press and it would have been a travesty if they did what Johnson and Cummings were hoping they would do and just shrugged and moved on.
Westminster Politics
- Thread starter altodevil
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@ivaldo
I don’t think it’s a case of Cummings and his flight of fancy being important.
It crossed a line. People have let so much go. This was a slam dunk, open and shut case for the government.
When that was taken away, everything else comes back out. Care homes, PPE, shutting down scientists, and and and.
I feel for you and your personal situation. But please know that it’s not just yapping dogs looking for a head on a pike and a story. The people holding the government to account on something that seems trivial to you.... Is still someone fighting for you and your child.
How can you trust this government to look after you and your at risk child, when they’ve got so much wrong? They’ve got almost EVERYTHING wrong. They cannot be allowed to lie.
Refusing to let Boris silence journalists and not letting him obfuscate anything prickly is helpful to all.
I don’t think it’s a case of Cummings and his flight of fancy being important.
It crossed a line. People have let so much go. This was a slam dunk, open and shut case for the government.
When that was taken away, everything else comes back out. Care homes, PPE, shutting down scientists, and and and.
I feel for you and your personal situation. But please know that it’s not just yapping dogs looking for a head on a pike and a story. The people holding the government to account on something that seems trivial to you.... Is still someone fighting for you and your child.
How can you trust this government to look after you and your at risk child, when they’ve got so much wrong? They’ve got almost EVERYTHING wrong. They cannot be allowed to lie.
Refusing to let Boris silence journalists and not letting him obfuscate anything prickly is helpful to all.
Sure ??
Alsitair Campbell is now on TV and in the press more than ever and probably making more money than ever.
Complete disgrace doesn't seem to have had any effect on him other than good effect.
What's that got to do with the price of cheese?
You know, since you and I are apparently descending into whataboutism.
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Sorry....Just pointing out that getting your name trashed is bad for a week or two but does wonders for the next 20 years....
It is not a "mobs anger". It is the general public outraged by the disdain shown for them by their government. In this case the media are actually aligned with public opinion.
If the government are not following their own advice and lying to cover up their indiscretions, the public are less likely to follow advice and trust what they are being told.
If Cummings was sacked immediately and lies had not been spun to sign the hole deeper then trust could have been restored.
Ah, apologies. I'm hardly on the ball in my good days and today I'm even worse.
I disagree. The only tool we have when holding these people to account, who create laws that they themselves don't (intend to) follow is embarrassing them to such an extent that either a) other rulers won't do the same later on or b) the law will be changed as it's too draconian in the first place for them or others to follow.
It's not a question of what Cummings did in my view, which incidentally to me was about a 0.5 out of 10 on the scale of what MP's do that takes the piss every year. If an MP goes 40 in a 30 they should be embarrassed into quitting, not because it's particularly bad but because if they can't even follow the laws they create and enforce, then clearly the laws need changing to make them easier for all of us to comply with.
The fact that Cummings himself said that he was in favour of a harsh lockdown, using it as some form of shield to accusations, is even worse. If he'd said "in truth I heard all the science and advocated aggressively for a Sweden style non-lockdown", I'd be less bothered as to his actions as at least he was practicing what he preached (if he'd have resigned over the lockdown decision in that scenario he'd have my respect)
It isn't about Cummings, it's about ardently ensuring that those that create and enforce laws aren't above them, as the second they believe they are we're likely to see government use this power to selectively punish those they want silenced, without fear of recrimination themselves.
/Edit @Pexbo succinctly beat me to it
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Honestly asking, what difference does it make who owns it?
It really depends on what the true function of the house is. If it turns out that Cummings parents actually don’t live there most of the time and like Cummings use it as a second home then it changes the context fairly drastically and once again Cummings would have been caught out lying to the country as he claimed he went to stay in an out building of his fathers farm. It’s an abjectly false statement if he actually went to stay at his own second home.
People's champions The Spectator are going with 'Boris isn't fit to lead'.
I think thats guaranteed now for a while amongst a lot of people, no matter what happens next.
Stevie Wonder
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Bloody lefty campaigners at the Spectator. Everyone knows that.
I really wish I hadn't seen that picture of Cummings as a Page 3 girl...it's like something from Mars Attacks!
Even @Eyepopper might find that a tough knuckle shuffle
I've seen hundreds of photos of him in recent weeks and only noticed he has a lazy eye because those tits confused me
I'm sure he'll find a way.
Okay so its another lie in a bag of lies. He and BJ dont care about that obviously otherwise something would be done already.
But in terms of breaking lockdown rules, does it matter? The trip itself broke them regardless of who owned the property no?
What's important is that he sat in the garden of 10 Downing Street and told lie after lie to the nation with the blessing of the PM who still backs him despite his lying becoming a national laughing stock.
I still don't understand why they didn't even pretend to fire and later rehire him
we already knew the upper classes rarely if ever face consequences for their actions, but they do sometimes go through the charade for a minute or two
the degeneration of the "norms" that allegedly make government possible is welcome though, the more apparent to more people it is that our political culture and politicians themselves are corrupt and broken the more chance of something being done about it
we already knew the upper classes rarely if ever face consequences for their actions, but they do sometimes go through the charade for a minute or two
the degeneration of the "norms" that allegedly make government possible is welcome though, the more apparent to more people it is that our political culture and politicians themselves are corrupt and broken the more chance of something being done about it
It's not so much the gravity (or otherwise) of what Cummings did but the accumulated effect of lie upon lie from him and his employers that angers people. They are untrustworthy, at the least, and it's cost and is costing lives.
Thats my point, what does another lie matter to them?
They should have just said ok he fecked up, apologised and tried to move on.
The constant lies and lack of integrity is astounding, even more so when you consider as it stands he's kept his job (and no doubt substantial salary). If it had just been taken on the chin and an apology offered then I'd of thought fair enough move on but the fact its lie after lie should make his position untenable. Leadership, honesty, respect, integrity, selflessness.. all non existent and all qualities which should resonate from our MPs and public servants.
That's the most mental thing for me. If they'd just made a token apology, had him publicly resign but keep him on doing the same work in the background until they rehire him sometime down the line, this entire story would have died within a few hours.
It's the complete refusal to even admit he's done anything wrong and the insane lengths they're going to to double down on it as more and more damning facts emerge that's keeping this story burning.
This! They’ve done this to themselves, they’re the most amateur government we have ever had.
Also...specific anger at Cummings might be caused by the recent stories of wealthy people surreptitiously heading for their second homes while the mass of us were told to stay indoors.
You don't believe that surely? Are you telling me you could trust Boris if he had sacked Cummings?
Just squint, so your vision blurs a little.
In related news:BBC said:
BBC said:
I understand all that, I really do, but there's a time and place. There is a tipping point where it becomes counter productive, and I believe we reached that today. I'm all for holding the government accountable; it's a pillar of our society, but this was a significant announcement that will see profound changes in the way we all live, and is introduces new risks that need to be planned for. There was only a limited amount of time afforded to the press and the public to ask questions. Those questions shouldve been about COVID-19.
Allowing one press conference to pass where the focus wasn't almost entirely on the governments defence of Cummings wouldn't have invalidated all the pressure that had gone before, nor would it have stopped the press from continuing that pressure in the coming weeks.
I perhaps understand more than most the betrayal of this government. That said, no amount of accountability can justify missing out on vital information to CEVs and CVs. At best, this is misguided.
No it isn't. The alternative is the pressure is resumed tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day. They have innumerable opportunities to pile the pressure on. As I've said, I wholeheartedly agree the government should be held accountable and challenged when they fail, and they've been failing on such a regular basis that it's near daily anyway. You're preaching to the choir mate. But giving half an hour up to focus on some incredibly important changes in guidance that will greatly effect the extremely vulnerable, and indeed those merely looking to return to work, isn't going to invalidate all the pressure that's come before and the pressure that will come.
Those are valid arguments, I feel, but the question remains: if not now, when (in terms of directly questioning the actions of government officials)? Their fleeting public appearances are stage-managed; Parliament is a bear-pit of bias; television interviews are routinely declined in case they receive tough questions; and PMQs seems designed to last as long as a Napalm Death ringtone...
I think the issue with Cummings is that it's eroded trust in the Government's Public Health messaging. This is why its foolhardy for the Government to press on with it unresolved, its why the public is fixated on it and thus why its fair for the press to push ahead with asking about it.
The Cummings issue isn't something unrelated to the public health issue. Its not like he was sleeping with his secretary. It was a clear breach of both the spirit of the guidance, and of the public duty that the Government claims we all owe each other. And yet the Government have approved his actions. This makes the entire notion of Government guidance muddy - is it something we follow to the letter for the public good, or are they just rough guidelines to be interpreted differently for each situation? There's a valid argument to be made for both sides from a public health perspective, but in the UK the expectation had always been to follow it to the letter - until the Cummings incident. Now its unclear.
This lack of clarity is going to undermine all their changes in guidance from now on, which is why this situation needs bottoming out now, before new guidance is implemented. Its either followed to the letter, or you just follow the general gist of it. The Government still say its the former, but their actions over Cummings is approval of the latter. Until this contradiction is resolved, it will undermine all their messages, particularly as we leave lockdown and the rules get more complicated.
Whereas my stance is : This is the line. We as a public shouldn’t be accepting of any change to lockdown until you give us faith in your governance.
Thousands of people are dead because of Boris Johnson & Dominic Cummings. They are dead because of this government. Not because of Covid19. They have thousands of avoidable deaths on their hands. People need to arrest this ‘moving on’ message. We shouldn’t.
If we let them move past this unchecked, your child is less safe and more likely to die. That’s the reality these people have given us.
They should not be talking about changing anything until they have a public that’s willing to accept and implement. They don’t have that. Nowhere near. But they carry on regardless. They will blame future deaths on the people, when it’s their fault.
Think of trust in government as a scale from 0 - 100. Not as a binary option.
It would increase my trust in the public health messaging being based on fact. And that the recent lockdown easing is not being fast tracked just to drown out the Cummings story at the expense of public health!
Grenfell Disaster.
"Let's move on"
Russian Report.
"Let's move on"
Jennifer Arcuri.
"Let's move on"
Highest deaths rate in the world (per million)
"Let's move on"
Inadequate PPE
"Let's move on"
Dominic Cummings.
"Let's move on"
"Let's move on"
Russian Report.
"Let's move on"
Jennifer Arcuri.
"Let's move on"
Highest deaths rate in the world (per million)
"Let's move on"
Inadequate PPE
"Let's move on"
Dominic Cummings.
"Let's move on"
Could add:
Inadequate equipment for 'our brave and valued hero soldiers'
Inadequate wages for 'our brave and valued hero healthcare workers'
And there are countless other examples.