Who decided to sign Van De Beek?

Leftback99

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It's the usual rush to judgement you see all the time though. Many said Rashford wasn't good enough and would never make 20 goals a season a few years ago.
Agree that it's early to write him off but he's shown next to nothing to believe in. Rashford was capable of moments of brilliance even at his worst.
 

stw2022

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This is the problem I have with a 'Director of Football' that everyone seems keen on. Unless the guy picking the team is in sole charge of who comes in and who doesn't, we'll always end up in situations like this. I agree I don't think Ole wanted VDB at all.
 

Giggsy13

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So on one hand we have people clamouring for strength in depth, yet on the other hand these same people are wanting to get rid of Van De Beek because he isn't starting games.

He's a squad player and a very good one at that. Some players need time to integrate themselves into a team, look at Fred.
There is no place for rational opinions here.
 

amolbhatia50k

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I don't know mate.

I was going to say Evra and Vidic but I'm not sure they were all that bad... Bit shakey to start certainly.

All I'm saying is that it's been a weird year anyway and certainly a tough one to move to another country to play for a team with a totally different style to the one you've been brought up in a stronger league.

By all accounts the team haven't really been able to much proper training as they are playing every 3 days.

Next season with a proper pre-season, no lockdown, crowds back matches etc we may see a different player.
I still remember Vidic's debut thinking there was a real player in there despite the shaky start.
 

amolbhatia50k

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So on one hand we have people clamouring for strength in depth, yet on the other hand these same people are wanting to get rid of Van De Beek because he isn't starting games.

He's a squad player and a very good one at that. Some players need time to integrate themselves into a team, look at Fred.
People want good squad players not bad ones. He's a million miles from acceptable right now let alone very good.
 

kundalini

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Paul Tomkins and Graeme Riley did a huge research project into transfers as part of their book, Pay As You Play. They found that 50% of transfers are a success, and that figure applies as much to high priced signings of elite players, as it does to lower priced transfers. If you go on Transfermarkt and look at a few clubs' signings over say the last 8 to 10 years, you'll see that this 50% figure seems realistic.

Van de Beek was signed using the same process as Maguire, Wan-Bissaka, James, Fernandes, Telles, Cavani, Pellistri and Amad. The recruitment team have a veto, as does Solskjaer. Both parties must have been sufficiently happy to agree to the signing, otherwise they would have used their veto.

Donny was signed as a back-up player. Since the first choice in his position, Bruno Fernandes, was fit through-out the season, Donny hasn't featured that often. Liverpool signed a left-back last summer, Tsimikas, who has barely played for them. Ake cost City £40m, he hasn't played much either. Real Madrid have bought numerous back-up players over recent years, that haven't featured that often.

Teams have a 25 player squad. We buy players to be part of the squad. No-one knows which players will get injured during the season. No-one knows which players will have a Martial season. Suppose we bought Sancho for the price that Dortmund asked for, but missed out on Cavani, Amad, Pellistri and van de Beek, in order to part fund the deal. Sancho creates tons of chances that Martial, our main striker, without serious competition, then misses because he is having a terrible season.
 
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devilish

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Seems like you're just making things up. Dan James was an Ole signing and he's barely featured all season.

Its clear we wanted a backup to bruno but also an alternative to Pogba with all the uncertainty surrounding him. If the squad was left as is, an injury to Bruno meamt we were back to playing Lingard. VDB was meant to be a rotational piece in the team a bit like how Greenwood and Cavani have been this season. Its pointless however because Ole seems like he wouldn't trust this side to hold a 7-0 lead without Bruno, plays him every game without fail.

VDB's signing was poor planning and scouting from the recruitment team including Ole. It was clear from his first game here that he was playing a completely different brand of football to the whole team.
Dan James was a cheap punt who is backup cover for both flanks. He wasn't our most expensive signing of the year and he doesn't get 5 minutes per game.

Why can't we embrace the fact that occasionally our club stop supporting the manager? Moyes said so, LvG said so and so did Mou.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Dan James was a cheap punt who is backup cover for both flanks. He wasn't our most expensive signing of the year and he doesn't get 5 minutes per game.

Why can't we embrace the fact that occasionally our club stop supporting the manager? Moyes said so, LvG said so and so did Mou.
But we don't stop supporting the manager. Lvg spent an absolute fortune. Moyes was backed while he was here. Mourinho was after players like William and Perisic so, feck him.
 

Stormrage101MUFC

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He hasn't played enough to get a proper gauge on where he's at, imo. And we massively over-spent for a player who's getting this little game time, whether he was intended as a squad player or not (and I doubt he was.) Great player but bad signing.
 

devilish

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But we don't stop supporting the manager. Lvg spent an absolute fortune. Moyes was backed while he was here. Mourinho was after players like William and Perisic so, feck him.
There seem to be a pattern here were we initially do until we don't. When that happens then the manager will end up having to make do with players he didn't really want or who are at the very end of his list. Look I don't think that there's a hero and a villain in the story. The manager should be more open minded as clubs can't always bring the players he wants. Also I hate when players are frozen out simply because the manager didn't want them. I find that petty and counterproductive. However its evident that Ole wanted Grealish and Sancho. For the club to bring him VDB and 2 promising kids who are years away from regular first team football is, well, underwhelming. The same can be said about us taking 2-3 transfer windows to get the player we want. It happened at least twice (Lindelof and Maguire) and will probably happen again with Sancho.

So all I am saying here is the pretty obvious. United transfer strategy is a proper mess
 

Giggsy13

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Has there been a United player who failed like VDB in his 1st season and turn out to be great at the end?

Fred became useful but nothing special and there are still many questions marks about him.
He’s played one season without a proper preseason to integrate into the squad. This has been an unusual season. Probably best to pass judgment next season.
 

The Oracle

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Anyone who thinks he will come good are in for a rude awakening.

He will NOT come good.

He is a flop.
 

VP89

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Agree that it's early to write him off but he's shown next to nothing to believe in. Rashford was capable of moments of brilliance even at his worst.
I wouldn't say next to nothing. There were a couple memorable appearances, but wholly agree he has been far too passive otherwise. I think he's one of those players that just needs to play himself in but he's not going to get that luxury with us. We just have to trust Ole has a plan with him.
 

luke511

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4 pages and not one mention of Marcel Bout? Dutch football coach head of global scouting at United? He was an apparent admirer of Van de Beek. I reckon Woodward shit himself when Real Madrid approached Ajax, consulted Bout for his opinion, then rushed to sign him at a 'discounted price' (Van der Sar's mate's rates) before Real Madrid had chance, coming out of it thinking he was getting a good value deal.
 

Leroy The Red

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I've always been ridiculed for suggesting this before, but I'll say it again: people are far too deeply invested in fighting wars on behalf of or against managers (LvG, Jose and Ole alike), Woodward, the Glazers or (a late entry into the field) Murtogh, and so keen to attribute successful and unsuccessful signings to whichever of those they love or hate (a point well made by @amolbhatia50k up-thread), that they fail to recognise the influence of players' agents and clubs desperate to offload players. Football clubs are just like any other business in that people make a living by selling stuff to them. Cold calls, junk mail, junk email, whatever.

Ajax needed some cash to fund its Covid deficit. Went through its squad for a player it could do without but still get a decent sum for. Donny ticked both boxes. Edwin uses his connection with United, as well as his reputation for being a Good Trustworthy Chap, to persuade Ed that Donny would be a good addition to the United squad (technically skilled, wanted by Real Madrid, United's good success rate with Dutch players). Ed sells the idea to his employees. Ole probably not fully convinced but realises the alternative is likely to be no signing at all. Job's a good 'un for Ajax.
Yeah, I’d go along these lines too. I don’t think it was a slam dunk case of Ole saying I want Vdb at the start of the summer nor do I think he’s someone who was forced on ole. There’s various inputs.

Ole to me isn’t great at attention to detail, whether it be during matches or with players. I think he’s the type who will take someone’s word for it rather than go out and figure it out himself.

Had he been that kind of manager, he’d have done his homework and watched 4/5 of vdb’s games at Ajax and quickly realised he would not be a good fit for United.

It’s all very amateurish whatever way you look at it. I’m not a dof, manager, scout. I didn’t know much about Vdb when we signed him yet I took some time out to watch bits of him at Ajax and quickly realised he was not gonna fit in.

We’re paying people thousands and thousands of pounds to be able to make these decisions and they’re not doing it. Wasting 40 million pounds on a player completely the wrong fit is shocking from top to bottom.

It’s been going on for years. Di Maria joining under LVG with his style of play was equally as bad a fit as vdb. It’s incredible that 6 years later we are still making the same mistakes.
 

Judas

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4 pages and not one mention of Marcel Bout? Dutch football coach head of global scouting at United? He was an apparent admirer of Van de Beek. I reckon Woodward shit himself when Real Madrid approached Ajax, consulted Bout for his opinion, then rushed to sign him at a 'discounted price' (Van der Sar's mate's rates) before Real Madrid had chance, coming out of it thinking he was getting a good value deal.
Real Madrid pulled out due to Covid, they weren't signing him last summer.
 

luke511

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Real Madrid pulled out due to Covid, they weren't signing him last summer.
Ah right. I just remember our interest in him stepped up a gear around the same time Real Madrid was rumoured to be interested.
 

Nou_Camp99

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It's only 1 of two choices.

1. He was a club signing.

2. Ole wanted him but hasn't been impressed with him since arriving both in training and on the pitch.

Nobody knows for sure. It could be either. However what I will say is that if a manager was so keen to sign you they wouldn't bring you in with 5 and 6 mins to go like he has done with Donny often and sometimes not at all.

I personally think he's a Woodward / Judge / Murtough signing. Ole just doesn't trust him at all which backs up this theory
 

tenpoless

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We prepared him as a replacement for Pogba in case Pogba leaves. On top of that Grealish was too expensive. At the time it didnt look like a bad decision considering vDB was one of the top talents in the world. In fact i thought we got very lucky to be able to get him for such a low price.

Whoever started the idea, Ole surely have agreed to it. Its common sense really any other manager would have agreed to it as well. But at the moment we dont know if he is going to do a Fred and adapt or do a Blind and go back to AJAX.
 

Champagne Football

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Dumb thread. You never write-off a player after 1 season.

Luka Modric won the award for La Ligas worst signing of 2013, 5 years later he replaced that award with the Ballon D'Or.

VDB deserves another season before we judge.
 

Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær

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I actually think more blame needs to be placed at the players feet. If you watch how he played for Ajax, we haven’t seen a glimpse of that yet. Players take time to adjust and maybe we should afford him the same courtesy but every single time he has played he’s just been a bit cowardly. Rather than working extra hard to find space and make himself available he goes into hiding. I don’t know if you can put this on the scouts when it’s the opposite of how he played at Ajax.
I think this season must have been a tough one to move countries and play in a new league.

Also, since we have plenty of evidence that some players take time to settle at United, I'm not concerned at the moment.
 

VP89

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I'm not denying VDB has had starts but it's hard for any player to grab chances without having some back-to-back games. Paul Scholes mentioned this too (not that he's always right), but I do think it's a contributing factor:

 

Chesterlestreet

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Why can't we embrace the fact that occasionally our club stop supporting the manager?
What's the story with VDB, then?

Ole wanted Grealish - but rather than buying him (because he was too expensive), Woody just bought a random Dutch player Ole didn't really fancy?
 

OmarUnited4ever

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There seem to be a pattern here were we initially do until we don't. When that happens then the manager will end up having to make do with players he didn't really want or who are at the very end of his list. Look I don't think that there's a hero and a villain in the story. The manager should be more open minded as clubs can't always bring the players he wants. Also I hate when players are frozen out simply because the manager didn't want them. I find that petty and counterproductive. However its evident that Ole wanted Grealish and Sancho. For the club to bring him VDB and 2 promising kids who are years away from regular first team football is, well, underwhelming. The same can be said about us taking 2-3 transfer windows to get the player we want. It happened at least twice (Lindelof and Maguire) and will probably happen again with Sancho.

So all I am saying here is the pretty obvious. United transfer strategy is a proper mess
not that i disagree with your overall view in your post regarding which options Ole preferred (Grealish & Sancho), but one thing is at least clear, Ole could have said no to VdB, and asked for another player at the same price point we paid for VdB (30/40 mil pounds), but Ole didn't say no and he approved the acquisition of VdB, that's why i consider VdB to be Ole's signing, and i think overall, most of Ole's signings did well (Maguire, AWB, Bruno, Cavani, and Telles to some extent).
 

Gazza

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So on one hand we have people clamouring for strength in depth, yet on the other hand these same people are wanting to get rid of Van De Beek because he isn't starting games.

He's a squad player and a very good one at that. Some players need time to integrate themselves into a team, look at Fred.
How is he a very good squad player? I mean I’m not saying he definitely isn’t but I’m curious how anyone can form that opinion after the season he has had with us.
 

roseguy64

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Yeah, I’d go along these lines too. I don’t think it was a slam dunk case of Ole saying I want Vdb at the start of the summer nor do I think he’s someone who was forced on ole. There’s various inputs.

Ole to me isn’t great at attention to detail, whether it be during matches or with players. I think he’s the type who will take someone’s word for it rather than go out and figure it out himself.

Had he been that kind of manager, he’d have done his homework and watched 4/5 of vdb’s games at Ajax and quickly realised he would not be a good fit for United.

It’s all very amateurish whatever way you look at it. I’m not a dof, manager, scout. I didn’t know much about Vdb when we signed him yet I took some time out to watch bits of him at Ajax and quickly realised he was not gonna fit in.

We’re paying people thousands and thousands of pounds to be able to make these decisions and they’re not doing it. Wasting 40 million pounds on a player completely the wrong fit is shocking from top to bottom.

It’s been going on for years. Di Maria joining under LVG with his style of play was equally as bad a fit as vdb. It’s incredible that 6 years later we are still making the same mistakes.
What the hell are you talking about? How do you know this?
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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I think Ole did want him.

Most, including myself, said we could do with a player that can play as a 10 and 8 to cover for Bruno and Pogba.

Van de Beek fit that profile, hence why I can imagine we signed him.

It hasnt worked out well thus far, but I can definitely see why he was signed.
 

devilish

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not that i disagree with your overall view in your post regarding which options Ole preferred (Grealish & Sancho), but one thing is at least clear, Ole could have said no to VdB, and asked for another player at the same price point we paid for VdB (30/40 mil pounds), but Ole didn't say no and he approved the acquisition of VdB, that's why i consider VdB to be Ole's signing, and i think overall, most of Ole's signings did well (Maguire, AWB, Bruno, Cavani, and Telles to some extent).
You have a rather simplistic views on transfers. Club don't simply come knocking at the club's door with a bag of money and "say here, 40m and give me ABC." Negotiations take time and with United things tend to drag down months. You only have to see how we dealt regarding the likes of Maguire and Lindelof. So in my opinion, United tried to negotiate with Aston Villa but were priced out. Then they used our connections with Ajax and told Ole that its either VDB or nothing.

I am not here to defend or criticise Ole/club. Both have their valid arguments and their faults in my opinion. My point is that we see a significant shift from last year and the year before something that is consistent with other administrations as well. Also I find it very hard to understand why United fans are portraying our transfer strategy as having any sense when we all know that we've been a mess on that for at least 7 years
 

devilish

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What's the story with VDB, then?

Ole wanted Grealish - but rather than buying him (because he was too expensive), Woody just bought a random Dutch player Ole didn't really fancy?
As I said in the previous post, transfers aren't simply about the buyer turning at the seller's door with a bag of money. It takes weeks and often months of negotiation between the clubs and the agent. Clubs also need to be comfortable selling the player as well. For example Dortmund were comfortable selling Sancho up till a certain date but not after. The reason being that they need time to find a replacement.

So here is what I think happened. We went for Grealish and as per usual we spent too much time negotiating (that happened before with Maguire, Lindelof, Sancho etc). Once it became evident that we were priced out we turned to players that might be available. Ajax were bracing themselves in losing VDB for months, VDB wanted to move, we had connections thanks to VDS and lets face it, Ajax is a selling club. So it really was down to either VDB or nothing.

Ole probably thought it was ok at this point. He was better then nothing and deep down he must have hoped that the money spared from the Grealish deal would then be invested on Sancho. He got Pellistri and Diallo instead who had a combined 2-3 games at top flight football between them
 

Leroy The Red

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What the hell are you talking about? How do you know this?
It’s an opinion, hence the ‘to me’. It’s an opinion based on the signing of Vdb, who is completely the wrong fit for us. The only explanation is that Ole took advice from scouts regarding Vdb and went ahead with the deal without watching Vdb. A fair assessment would be that in this instance Ole didn’t pay attention to detail.
 

Nikelesh Reddy

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Ole after signing Van de Beek”I really felt that we needed this type of player in our squad....Extremely versatile will definitely add goals from midfield....I actually followed his career right from when he made his debut against Molde....

Its quite clear that this was Oles signing...Maybe Ole thought he was good enough to play in a deeper role,but after watching him train every day he has come to the cinclusion that he’s not suited to play in midfield...
 

Champ

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How is he a very good squad player? I mean I’m not saying he definitely isn’t but I’m curious how anyone can form that opinion after the season he has had with us.
Because he is a good player, just because he hasn't been brilliant for us doesn't mean he isn't good!
He showed his quality at the highest level at Ajax.
 

Sandikan

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I think we had earmarked him in case Pogba left, signed him because he was cheaper than Grealish and Ajax weren’t going all Dortmund on us, then found out Sancho in/Pogba out wasn’t going to happen. I think the Sancho deal hinged on Pogba freeing up some funds.
I think this is nailing it.
The whole Pogba circus was in peak mode, and he was our insurance against him going.

Except it's like we didn't research what position he plays in, as he can't play in the (hate this phrase) double pivot anyway.
We've struggled to get Pogba playing well there repeatedly, so I guess we've at least matched that with Donny.

But blowing 35m (not 40m), when we never net spend more than 80m a summer anyway was a criminal decision.

With Rashford really only being top form on the wide left role, and Martial and even Pogba covering that side too, I think we'd need to really consider looking at Grealish over bigger issues at centre back, centre mid and right wing.

I think Liverpool and City have showed how you build a team. Identify a position you're weakest in, and get the best player you can there.
 

Bilbo

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There's really no need to overthink this transfer. It made complete sense at the time and looked like a great piece of business. We had no backup for Bruno and we needed one, but we've been fortunate (and Donnys been unfortunate) in that Bruno is never unavailable.

Sometimes these things just don't work out. We're buying human beings not machines.
 

snk123

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Technically he is a very very good player and can play a number of positions, just not worked out for him upto now.
Never understood this but I'll try again. Based on what exactly.. is he a technically "very very" good player?

1. Does he have a good shot on him? No
2. Is he two footed? No
3. Can he ping balls and play long balls to our wingers or centrally? No
4. Can he dictate the tempo of the game? No
5. Can he create killer through balls? No
6. Does he have a great touch? No
7. Can he dribble with the ball, does he have close control? No
8. Can he beat a man with skills or pace in order to create space? No
9. Can he attack the space like Anderson? No :wenger:

I'm sorry, he's not technically very very good at all. He's technically poor.
 

elmo

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Doesn't really matter whether it's Ole's signing or not.

As the manager he should be finding ways to get the best out of all his players. If he thinks giving VDB a token 5-10 mins every now and than is the best way to get him up to speed, so be it.
 

clarkydaz

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Never understood this but I'll try again. Based on what exactly.. is he a technically "very very" good player?

1. Does he have a good shot on him? No
2. Is he two footed? No
3. Can he ping balls and play long balls to our wingers or centrally? No
4. Can he dictate the tempo of the game? No
5. Can he create killer through balls? No
6. Does he have a great touch? No
7. Can he dribble with the ball, does he have close control? No
8. Can he beat a man with skills or pace in order to create space? No
9. Can he attack the space like Anderson? No :wenger:

I'm sorry, he's not technically very very good at all. He's technically poor.
based on his technique you clown. watch some videos on him