[Regulus Arcturus Black]

So that same stats that are useless for determining which striker is the better finisher are perfectly fine to use to determine which striker gets into the best goalscoring positions more often, interesting.

Obviously but odd I need to point that out.

Goal scoring chances = how often a players gets into a position to score a goal.

Goal scoring chances taken percentage = tells you nothing about the actual chance: easy, difficult, fluffed, saved etc.

Here's a hypothetical example:

1.
Kane - 70 shots - 10 goals
Zlatan 50 shots - 10 goals

2.
Kane big chances missed: 12
Zlatan big chances missed: 5

As this point you'd claim Zlatan is the better finisher. However...

3.
Kane big chances classed as easy: 1
Zlatan big chances classed as easy: 5

4.
Kane big chances fluffed: 1
Zlatan big chances fluffed: 5

as this point you'd have completely changed your tune right? On top of that you'd have to go deeper still, like "saved? if so rate the save out of 10" etc etc. Otherwise it's all guess work based on the one player you have seen every chance and a bunch of players you haven't.

 

[tommkell]

I wouldn't mind seeing videos of all his touches in the last load of games. Personally think he's been poor for a while now.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I wouldn't mind seeing videos of all his touches in the last load of games. Personally think he's been poor for a while now.

That's easy, there's this thing called youtube @tommkell. I reckon Watford will piss you off though if you have that view as he created 6 chances for his teammates, the highest of any Premier League player last weekend.

 

[Cascarino]

I think he is, just as Andrew Cole used to be. You could guarantee Cole would get 3-4 chances per game, when the likes of Ole started instead it was blindingly obvious that they just didn't get into as many good positions as him.

To say Zlatan isn't incredible at getting into goalscoring positions is denying your own eyesight and all of these stats a load of you keep posting.

I think Ibra is brilliant with his movement and positioning, the other prem striker who I think runs him close in this sense is Defoe, who I personally think is excellent in regards to his off the ball movement, but of course doesn't have the all round game of Ibra.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I think Ibra is brilliant with his movement and positioning, the other prem striker who I think runs him close in this sense is Defoe, who I personally think is excellent in regards to his off the ball movement, but of course doesn't have the all round game of Ibra.

Defoe is absolutely superb at finding goalscoring positions, and he somehow manages it in that god awful Sunderland side. He's the most damning aspect of Moyes' reign at Sunderland, if you can't survive with a player like that in your side, you're simply not a good manager.

 

[stevoc]

Obviously but odd I need to point that out.

Goal scoring chances = how often a players gets into a position to score a goal.

Goal scoring chances taken percentage = tells you nothing about the actual chance: easy, difficult, fluffed, saved etc.

Right so when a stat shows Zlatan in a positive light it's a good stat. But when a stat paints him in a negative light it's a bad stat. Even if it's the exact same stat, right ok i get you mate.

as this point you'd have completely changed your tune right?

Oh i haven't mate, to be honest i am just having a bit of fun and playing devils advocate. Because i knew as soon as i posed that question someone would bring those stats back into it as proof of Zlatan's brilliance.

Personally i think Zlatan has way more attempts than anyone else simply because he attempts way more shots than anyone else. He has the luxury of being a senior player in a good team where most of the play runs through him. And where he has the licence to basically do whatever he wants with the knowledge his manager is unlikely complain about it as he is still scoring a lot of goals and they have a good relationship. Younger players like Kane or Lukaku would more often than not probably pass to a team mate or hold the ball up before attempting some of the things Zlatan has tried this season.

Whether or not he is actually better at getting into goalscoring positions than anyone else in the league is very difficult to determine in my opinion.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Don't think that PSG result would have happened with Zlatan leading the line. You can see the merits of replacing Zlatan with a younger, pacier, quality striker.

It's why he didn't really fit in at Barca either, I know people put everything at Barca down to Pep not liking him but when he was at Barca I felt their game was lacking something. When they were having those quick counters of theirs and the ball got to him he'd hold on to it for a while and do that roll over thing with the ball he's still doing right now. He scored loads of goals of course but ultimately the team wasn't as effective as with a striker like Eto'o, and I think it's the same problem we're having now

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Right so when a stat shows Zlatan in a positive light it's a good stat. But when a stat paints him in a negative light it's a bad stat. Even if it's the exact same stat, right ok i get you mate.

You'd be daft to suggest such a thing when I myself posted the most damning stat about Zlatan earlier, he has missed the most big chances of any player in the Prem this season.

But I'll say it again and again, unless you take a look at every single big chance for every player on the list, how can you honestly claim the stat is certain "proof" of anything?

 

[Janson]

My only point was that he's missing too many easy chances. I posted stats that also objectively suggest this to be the case. I didn't say he was the worst finisher in the league. I merely said that he's been a poor finisher and the stats suggest he's missing more chances than his peers.

My view is that you're reading too much into those stats, I don't really value them too highly as you probably understood by now, so there's no point debating this any further. You didn't say worst finisher, that's my fault I forgot what you said in your initial post I responded to but second worst you said, based on the stats.

I also said that I'm happy to have a discussion that he's doing enough to compensate for his missed chances. I personally think he does bring other things to the team which are a positive over his peers, but on balance his 6.2 forum rating is correct. If he'd put away maybe 5 more somewhat simple chances, winning us another maybe 6 points, that rating would be very close to 7/10 which would be the best in our squad.

That's your opinion and I respect that but have to disagree. I think when you take into account his goals and assists together with every other positive aspect of his game, it should really be closer to seven.

I don't think we're the best team in the league, but I do feel overall we're second behind Chelsea (creatively and defensively combined) and the 4 points and 5 goal difference between us and City are down to the chances Zlatan has missed. He is by no means alone though. If our finishing was "normal" this season we'd still be in the title race, albeit still a few points behind Chelsea.

I also happen to think we're second behind Chelsea creatively and defensively but without Zlatan we wouldn't be there creatively nor would we be anywhere near Chelsea without his hold up play and goals. He has missed some important chances but if you don't get goals from other areas it will look far worse than it actually is. You are right he isn't the only one at fault but he is criticized more than others.

 

[stevoc]

You'd be daft to suggest such a thing when I myself posted the most damning stat about Zlatan earlier, he has missed the most big chances of any player in the Prem this season.

No i saw that mate, i wasn't exactly being serious with that bit. I thought the smily conveyed that.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I'd absolutely love a video of the top 5 PL scorers missed "big chances" this season stevo, it would settle this and at least I'm the one saying I don't know what the outcome would be, the other side of the fence appears so certain.

I mean, I know for certain that Zlatan has missed at least 6-7 bad ones, but are these examples also classed as big chances or no?

Spoiler: Chances Zlatan

And what are Sanchez's misses like? Or Lukaku's? similar? I haven't the foggiest is the problem.

 

[Janson]

Over the last few pages you brought Ronaldo into the discussion, but now it's only PL players ok.

So what if I brought up Ronaldo? Isn't his situation relevant to the discussion? I was arguing with finneh over the list of stats he brought up, where do you see Ronaldo in there? Obviously I meant a clinical striker from that bunch.

Is he in your opinion the best in the Premier league at getting into goal scoring positions then?
And if so how did you come to this conclusion?

I have seen all his games but obviously not all the other strikers games. I have seen enough though which allows me to come to a conclusion that he is the best at it though. And his number of shot's is also an indication although not conclusive for the reasons you mentioned below.

Possibly mate but it's also possible that because he plays for a team which dominates most of the games they play, which also creates a lot of chances and directs the majority of its play through him. And he decides to shoot more often than most other strikers.

A lot of our play going through him could be a reason but at the same time, we do that because he warrants it like they do for Ronaldo for example. And most of the time when that happens it's to create for others. Dominating most games we play is stretching it a little I believe, there were a few games where we had like up to 30 shots each that skew the reality a little by putting us equal in chance creating as others.

 

[Janson]

I'd absolutely love a video of the top 5 PL scorers missed "big chances" this season stevo, it would settle this and at least I'm the one saying I don't know what the outcome would be, the other side of the fence appears so certain.

I mean, I know for certain that Zlatan has missed at least 6-7 bad ones, but are these examples also classed as big chances or no?

Spoiler: Chances Zlatan

And what are Sanchez's misses like? Or Lukaku's? similar? I haven't the foggiest is the problem.

Same here mate, people keep coming up with stats that don't mean much, and coming to definitive conclusions based on that. But even if it were true that he is the worst finisher from the top strikers in PL, he has still done enough in creating, hold up, link up play even defending and also indirectly creating chances for others with clever movement like when he dragged Morgan out of position allowing Smalling to score, to make up for it more then enough.

 

[Firstouch20]

His legacy will take a huge dent if PSG reach the CL final or win it. Would be a confirmation that he's a liability in high level European competition.

 

[stevoc]

So what if I brought up Ronaldo? Isn't his situation relevant to the discussion? I was arguing with finneh over the list of stats he brought up, where do you see Ronaldo in there? Obviously I meant a clinical striker from that bunch.

Well you tell me mate, one page you are bringing Ronaldo into the discussion and the next you are saying only PL players are being discussed.

I have seen all his games but obviously not all the other strikers games. I have seen enough though which allows me to come to a conclusion that he is the best at it though. And his number of shot's is also an indication although not conclusive for the reasons you mentioned below.

I don't know mate if you haven't watched the other players much then wouldn't you by your own logic really need to have watched every match or at least most that every player who is being compared has played in before coming to to a definitive conclusion on that though?

A lot of our play going through him could be a reason but at the same time, we do that because he warrants it like they do for Ronaldo for example. And most of the time when that happens it's to create for others. Dominating most games we play is stretching it a little I believe, there were a few games where we had like up to 30 shots each that skew the reality a little by putting us equal in chance creating as others.

Not really for every 10 games we play we are often the better side with more possession in at least 6-7 of those games.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

His legacy will take a huge dent if PSG reach the CL final or win it. Would be a confirmation that he's a liability in high level European competition.

Well let's not get ahead of ourselves here though, they made the quarters last season and are on their way there this season too by the looks of it, but it's still a long way from the final. Last night was a great performance but let's not forget City absolutely trashed this Barca team in the second half of their CL game earlier this season too.

Right now PSG are having a worse season than last*, but lots can happen between now and the end of the season.

* last season they were 2nd to Madrid in their group, with 13 points.
This season they were 2nd to Arsenal in their group, with 12 points.

* last season they smashed the league and almost had it won already
This season they are sitting in second and had to make a cracking purchase of Draxler in January which has really rejuvenated their season.

 

[Janson]

Well you tell me mate, one page you are bringing Ronaldo into the discussion and the next you are saying only PL players are being discussed.

I have no idea what you're on about. I said a clinical striker, has Ronaldo been clinical? That was just to show that not many are criticizing him as they do with Ibra.

I don't know mate if you haven't watched the other players much then wouldn't you by your own logic really need to have watched every match or at least most that every player who is being compared has played in before coming to to a definitive conclusion on that though?

I said conclusion not definitive conclusion. You know the same type that finneh made after watching Zlatan miss all those chances, without stats. Reinforcing that with stats is what I said isn't possible. I also said his number of shots is an indication not something absolute. Also, you don't really need to watch all matches from this particular season to understand the movement of a player. When it comes to chances and shots, you do.

Not really for every 10 games we play we are often the better side with more possession in at least 6-7 of those games.

We are but that doesn't mean we're more dominant then other top teams. And we play defensively in big games which some of the teams whose strikers we are comparing to him don't. That also spreaks in favor of Zlatan.

 

[ti vu]

His legacy will take a huge dent if PSG reach the CL final or win it. Would be a confirmation that he's a liability in high level European competition.

I don't think it would come to that. If anything, it proves Emery has got it as a top manager while Blanc is rightly called for his lukewarm management style

 

[Womp]

Yep a player who scored 50 goals for them last season and has regularly been their best player is going to have his legacy tarnished if they win the CL. What a load of bollocks.

 

[Chaky_Best]

I'm not a fan of him and I would like him to leave United this year.

Yes he scores goals, but having a 36 years old who's not running affect our cohesion as a team, and we see that in Europe.

He's useful, but we saw against Watford that when he's not scoring he's frustrating others.

I would buy Aguero every day before Ibra

 

[Ashley R1+O]

What he said below is true for pretty much every player. There's also a few who always criticize no matter what he does.

That is what I said, but the bold bit is correct regardless.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He's useful, but we saw against Watford that when he's not scoring he's frustrating others.

Created 6 chances v Watford @Chaky_Best, more than any other player in the PL last weekend.

 

[The United]

I've watched him play all season and knew he was missing a hell of a lot of simple chances. I took that opinion and instead of just saying "he's missing a lot of easy chances", I looked at all the statistics. All of these statistics backed up my hypothesis - he's missing a hell of a lot of chances.

The amount of "big chances" he misses. The amount of shots inside the area he misses. The amount of shots outside the area he misses.The amount of shots it takes him to score. The amount of on target shots it takes him to score. All suggest what any layman can see whilst watching our matches - that his finishing has been very poor. I can't imagine anyone ever watching Ronaldo and thinking "bloody hell he misses a ton of simple chances", so this is a deliberate misdirection.

Lets discount the shots from outside the area as these tend to be more difficult shots that are less likely to be scored from and focus on non-penalties from inside the area:

Alli - 11 goals from 34 shots - 32.5%
Lukaku - 15 goals from 46 shots - 32.5%
Kane - 10 goals from 34 shots - 29.5%
Mane - 11 goals from 43 shots - 25.5%
Sanchez - 13 goals from 54 shots - 24%
Costa - 13 goals from 55 shots - 23.5%
Hazard - 7 goals from 33 shots - 21%
Defoe - 9 goals from 44 shots - 20.5%
Ibrahimovich - 11 goals from 71 shots - 15.5%
Aguero - 7 goals from 56 shots - 12.5%

As you can see these statistics look even worse. Essentially when Ibrahimovich takes a shot from inside the area he's less than half as likely to score vs Alli/Lukaku and if the latter two players had taken 71 shots from inside the area they'd have scored 12 more goals.

Therefore the only statistical counter argument against Ibrahimovich being a very poor finisher is saying that he regularly attempts shots from inside the box that he's ridiculously unlikely to score from. Is this your assertion? If so maybe we have a bigger problem - a player that panics when he's in the box and attempts numerous shots that have little or no chance of going in.

A bit of off topic. According to those stats, aguero is having pretty shit season. No wonder he is usually out of their XI.

 

[Minimalist]

Haters will say he didn't mean it!

 

[mu4c_20le]

He's a genius

 

[shaggy]

His free kicks really are garbage

 

[red4ever 79]

Never a free kick in the first place.

 

[Donut]

He's been playing drunk lately. Can't do anything right.

 

[red4ever 79]

He has a bad hand

 

[Adisa]

He's so frustrating.

 

[dirkey]

Rubbish first half.

 

[AltiUn]

Could do with a rest although not sure his ego could take it, he's been quite poor for a while now, no shame in taking a break, he is 35 after all.

 

[ElQuesoGrande]

Another rancid performance. Hate watching him stroll about passing to the opposition

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Looks more legged since the new year.

 

[3KDré]

He's a marvellous player who needs to rest more, that's all I have to say.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

@Regulus Arcturus Black

Make that 14 'big' chances missed.

 

[ElQuesoGrande]

Like just then, Lingard puts him through on goal and he slows down, does those stupid touches with the ball under his foot and finishes it with an awful pass. What is he actually trying to achieve? Rooney would get SLAUGHTERED for that.

 

[All 3 United]

He even new he was offside, why has he not got onside? Just such a luxury player that misses so many chances

 

[Top]

He is so sloppy! We could do so much better than him!

At least he's effective

 

[dirkey]

Ibra continuing utter crapness so far in 2nd half. Great to see Pogba having a go at him just now when he looked up and there was no movement in front of him. Would love to see him taken off, but it won't happen.