[footballgirl07]

Zabaleta's discipline is worse than Rafael's, albeit that is seldom scrutinised. I don't think his form is as good as it once was either.

I rate Rafael highly, he's probably my favourite player. But he needs another fit, consistent season to come into the discussion. It is a little bit tiring, however, that we're discussing Seamus Coleman yet again, for practically no reason at all. It's boring.

Everything you have written, I 100% agree with. More than anything, the BIB. Zabaleta discipline in terms of cards, is a lot worse than Rafaels and like you said, it does not get picked up on at all. For instance, when they played against Chelsea couple of weeks back. Yeah, Lampards equaliser took a lot off the attention of Pablos red, but he hardly got any flack for it at all. Same with his red card in the cup final v wigan. He is a good player, but if he was scrutinised as closely as Rafael is, he would not be as highly rated as he is.

 

[Manucho the boss]

Everything you have written, I 100% agree with. More than anything, the BIB. Zabaleta discipline in terms of cards, is a lot worse than Rafaels and like you said, it does not get picked up on at all. For instance, when they played against Chelsea couple of weeks back. Yeah, Lampards equaliser took a lot off the attention of Pablos red, but he hardly got any flack for it at all. Same with his red card in the cup final v wigan. He is a good player, but if he was scrutinised as closely as Rafael is, he would not be as highly rated as he is.

Zabaleta hasn't been anywhere near his best this season and he is picking up a lot of cards but don't forget he had a good World Cup and went all the way to the final, Rafael will be lucky to even get another call up to a Brazil squad. It's not really fair to compare the two at the moment I don't think.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

Because people are stuck with clichés and aren't bothered with further analysis. Stuck in their ways, it's just easier. Especially that way with pundits who have to analyse 10 games but you know they didn't watch them all. They therefor rely on cliches. If you think about it you will notice it every episode.

I completely agree. People are too lazy to think for themselves.

 

[LR7]

Zabaleta hasn't been anywhere near his best this season and he is picking up a lot of cards but don't forget he had a good World Cup and went all the way to the final, Rafael will be lucky to even get another call up to a Brazil squad. It's not really fair to compare the two at the moment I don't think.

we all know that isn't because of form though so I'm not even sure why you'd use it as a point of comparison.

 

[fishfingers15]

we all know that isn't because of form though so I'm not even sure why you'd use it as a point of comparison.

It's astounding that people will look for excuses for every other right back's form. It's stupid and pointless.

 

[fishfingers15]

Ivanovic is by a considerable distance the most consistent right back in the league, closely followed by his compatriot Cesar, who if also played at right back, would prove more consistent than many of those mentioned above.

Debuchy doesn't belong here. I've seen a lot of him at Newcastle and he's a lucky man to be playing at Arsenal. Zabaleta's discipline is worse than Rafael's, albeit that is seldom scrutinised. I don't think his form is as good as it once was either. I've covered Coleman before. He's a good player, sometimes very good, but a defender at plucky Everton will see that his strengths are identified more so than his weaknesses. Opinions of Luke Shaw will change this season. Last season, at Southampton, a bad word was never said. At United there is a change. Good performances are expected, praised less, and errors, and they always exist irrespective of the club one plays their football, are given more airtime. Shaw will receive more negativity this season than ever before. He's already put on weight.

I rate Rafael highly, he's probably my favourite player. But he needs another fit, consistent season to come into the discussion. It is a little bit tiring, however, that we're discussing Seamus Coleman yet again, for practically no reason at all. It's boring.

A fair post.

 

[Revan]

It's astounding that people will look for excuses for every other right back's form. It's stupid and pointless.

It is definitely true on Rafael's case though. Usually not being called (or not starting) for a national team is a poor argument. Scholes was being shifted all over the place in order to make comfortable two inferior players to play in that favorite position. Riquelme wasn't called for Argentina despite being their best player on around 5 years prior to it. There are countless examples on national teams, how managers have their favorites and play them instead of superior players (like Scolari with vice captain Luiz who played while better players like Miranda or Marquinhos weren't called at all).

 

[fishfingers15]

It is definitely true on Rafael's case though. Usually not being called (or not starting) for a national team is a poor argument. Scholes was being shifted all over the place in order to make comfortable two inferior players to play in that favorite position. Riquelme wasn't called for Argentina despite being their best player on around 5 years prior to it. There are countless examples on national teams, how managers have their favorites and play them instead of superior players (like Scolari with vice captain Luiz who played while better players like Miranda or Marquinhos weren't called at all).

His argument makes no sense whatsover.

"Zabaleta has been inconsistent and got a red card already"

"but hey ho, he played in the World cup lolzy".

 

[Nighteyes]

It's a good thing Rafa wasn't in the squad for Brazil in the summer. The "neutrals" would have found a way to blame him for that as well.

 

[fishfingers15]

It's a good thing Rafa wasn't in the squad for Brazil in the summer. The "neutrals" would have found a way to blame him for that as well.

I'm always having sleep over parties with neutrals, and they tell me that boy Rafael needs to prove himself.

 

[footballgirl07]

Zabaleta hasn't been anywhere near his best this season and he is picking up a lot of cards but don't forget he had a good World Cup and went all the way to the final, Rafael will be lucky to even get another call up to a Brazil squad. It's not really fair to compare the two at the moment I don't think.

When talking about Pablos discipline, I didn't mean just this season. I ment his City career. There was a stat I read on the BBC site after he got sent off v Chelsea, that was his 6th red in 7 seasons there. Rafael not getting called up for the national team is not about the football. He was solely blamed for them losing the gold medal match v the Mexicans at 2012 Olympics. As I said in another thread, other than the error in the final, he was there 2nd best player in the tournament. Had a great tournament other than that one error. So no, unless Brazil wake up to the fact Maicon is past it, Rafael wont even get a chance to get called up as a squad player. As a united fan, I think great as means he will have less games etc. But Rafael would love to play for Brazil again one day. But like fishfingers said, good job he was nowhere there poor squad and even worse defence in the summer.

 

[sullydnl]

I'm sorry but who gives a flying feck about the neutrals? They don't watch every United game (or every Everton game for that matter) and are in no position to have an informed opinion about either of them. Seemingly, most of the opinion on Rafael has been formed on the basis of a couple of brain farts and they all pretend the season 2012-2013 never happened. Unfortunately for Rafael he plays for United. Good performances are expected and poor one's are highlighted. With Coleman good performances are praised and the poor ones ignored. Look at Leighton Baines for instance. Are his defensive mistakes pointed by the media? feck no. He made more mistakes against Liverpool than Rafael has made in the entire season.

Everton fans would rather keep Coleman I'm sure and United fans (most I hope) would rather have Rafael. Win Win.

Well, obviously the reason we refer to neutrals is to eliminate any bias towards our own players. Makes sense really, especially when we're discussing a general point like who the best RB in the league is.

Would I bother replacing Rafael with Coleman? No, it would be pretty pointless given that I rate Rafael and Coleman would cost a fortune. If I had a theoretical choice between either of them atm though it would be Coleman as he's simply a better player right now. That doesn't mean Rafael can't overtake him though. In fact he probably should given that he has more potential imo.

 

[footballgirl07]

Well, obviously the reason we refer to neutrals is to eliminate any bias towards our own players. Makes sense really, especially when we're discussing a general point like who the best RB in the league is.

Would I bother replacing Rafael with Coleman? No, it would be pretty pointless given that I rate Rafael and Coleman would cost a fortune. If I had a theoretical choice between either of them atm though it would be Coleman as he's simply a better player right now. That doesn't mean Rafael can't overtake him though. In fact he probably should given that he has more potential imo.

Coleman is 2 years older than Rafael and, as someone pointed out earlier, never played in the CL. He is a good player but until he plays against the big boys and as Kag pointed out, for a team where he is scrutinised so closely, you can't put him in the box as the others mentioned in the thread: Zabaleta and Invanovic.

 

[sullydnl]

Anyway, forget comparisons with other players.

The real point is that Rafael has played three games this season, one of which saw him criticised by our manager for giving away a penalty. This isn't enough form for us to start calling him the best RB in the league, particularly given he was quite poor last season (along with the rest of our team).

He really, really needs to stay fit this season. One more injury plagued year and we'll have to replace him as our first choice, regardless of how much we rate him. Having a proper RB in our team makes such a difference...

 

[LR7]

Coleman might score a few more goals but I don't think he's better all round than Rafael at all.

 

[Nighteyes]

I don't care whether or not Rafael is the best RB in the league. I wouldn't swap him for anyone regardless.

And I don't even think Coleman is better than Rafael going forward. Sure he scores more goals but that does not mean he's better. He has more goals from RB than Alves as well for what it's worth.

 

[footballgirl07]

Anyway, forget comparisons with other players.

The real point is that Rafael has played three games this season, one of which saw him criticised by our manager for giving away a penalty. This isn't enough form for us to start calling him the best RB in the league, particularly given he was quite poor last season (along with the rest of our team).

He really, really needs to stay fit this season. One more injury plagued year and we'll have to replace him as our first choice, regardless of how much we rate him. Having a proper RB in our team makes such a difference...

BIB, tbh I think when your only other senior option is Valencia, you would pretty much take anyone over Valencia or young there and hopefully neither of Jones and Smalling plays there ever again. Even if it is a kid that gets a chance, as long as it is a proper RB, like you said.

 

[fishfingers15]

BIB, tbh I think when your only other senior option is Valencia, you would pretty much take anyone over Valencia or young there and hopefully neither of Jones and Smalling plays there ever again. Even if it is a kid that gets a chance, as long as it is a proper RB, like you said.

I read that as, 'Balotelli, tbh I think...'

 

[Loublaze]

I don't care whether or not Rafael is the best RB in the league. I wouldn't swap him for anyone regardless.

And I don't even think Coleman is better than Rafael going forward. Sure he scores more goals but that does not mean he's better. He has more goals from RB than Alves as well for what it's worth.

What else would you base 'better going forward' on if not goals and assists?

 

[Nighteyes]

What else would you base 'better going forward' on if not goals and assists?

Coleman has more goals than Alves. Is he better than him as well? We're talking about right backs, not strikers. Until he became a goal scoring freak in his last two seasons how many goals and assists did Evra rack up prior to that? Not very productive I'd imagine and yet no one would say he wasn't brilliant going forward even back then.

 

[Loublaze]

Coleman has more goals than Alves. Is he better than him as well? We're talking about right backs, not strikers. Until he became a goal scoring freak in his last two seasons how many goals and assists did Evra rack up prior to that? Not very productive I'd imagine and yet no one would say he wasn't brilliant going forward even back then.

All I can say is stats speak for themselves. If Coleman has scored more goals than Alves then yes, it wouldn't be crazy to say he's better going forward, but perhaps the better thing to say would be that he's a bigger goal threat. Coleman also contributes in other ways offensively than just scoring though, so his goalscoring gives him a strong argument and an advantage. If he played for one of the big teams he'd get more world wide recognition for his attacking prowess and you probably wouldn't even touch this debate.

 

[united_99]

Coleman is as overrated as Baines was. Good (nothing more) for Everton, found out at a higher level.

Anyway back to Rafael, maybe Dunga will recall him sometime, who knows ...

 

[Rado_N]

Stats don't speak for themselves, though. Not at all. They require interpretation and are more often that not overly relied upon.

A RB can easily be fantastic going forwards but not have much in the way of goal/assist stats.

 

[footballgirl07]

If he played for one of the big teams he'd get more world wide recognition for his attacking prowess and you probably wouldn't even touch this debate.

Same argument could be had about his defensive abilities as well though. If he moved to a bigger team, people will look more closely at him defensively and scrutinise him a lot more than what he gets at everton.

 

[fishfingers15]

All I can say is stats speak for themselves. If Coleman has scored more goals than Alves then yes, it wouldn't be crazy to say he's better going forward, but perhaps the better thing to say would be that he's a bigger goal threat. Coleman also contributes in other ways offensively than just scoring though, so his goalscoring gives him a strong argument and an advantage. If he played for one of the big teams he'd get more world wide recognition for his attacking prowess and you probably wouldn't even touch this debate.

It would be totally crazy to say Coleman is better than Alves (going forward or sitting down). You lot are overdoing it.

 

[Manucho the boss]

I'd imagine he is better than Alves at this stage yeah.

Coleman is as overrated as Baines was. Good (nothing more) for Everton, found out at a higher level.

Anyway back to Rafael, maybe Dunga will recall him sometime, who knows ...

I must have missed this part, when was Coleman found out at a higher level or can you see the future?

 

[fishfingers15]

Sadly, we've been posting more about Coleman than Rafael.

 

[Loublaze]

It would be totally crazy to say Coleman is better than Alves (going forward or sitting down). You lot are overdoing it.

Once again, if some RB called Colemanito was doing what Coleman was doing but at Real Madrid, people would be calling him one of the best attacking RBs. If Jordi Alba played for Swansea would he get even half the praise he gets as a Barca player? When real Madrid signed Cicinho some years back (we were linked with him too) he was immediately considered one of the best attacking RBs but he flopped miserably. Alves has the immediate 'advantage' of playing for a world famous elite team. Im not saying Coleman is better going forward, but its not crazy to say so either. Goals are goals.

Some United fans think Rafael is the best RB in the league for instance and IMO that's not the case. If he played for a lower team he'd be seen as a good player with great potential but too injury prone to hack it at the top.

 

[Loublaze]

Same argument could be had about his defensive abilities as well though. If he moved to a bigger team, people will look more closely at him defensively and scrutinise him a lot more than what he gets at everton.

This exactly!

 

[fishfingers15]

Once again, if some RB called Colemanito was doing what Coleman was doing but at Real Madrid, people would be calling him one of the best attacking RBs. If Jordi Alba played for Swansea would he get even half the praise he gets as a Barca player? When real Madrid signed Cicinho some years back (we were linked with him too) he was immediately considered one of the best attacking RBs but he flopped miserably. Alves has the immediate 'advantage' of playing for a world famous elite team. Im not saying Coleman is better going forward, but its not crazy to say so either.

If it's crazy to suggest the Irish posters are overrating Coleman, it's equally crazy to say that Coleman is not getting plaudits because he's playing for Everton and he's Irish. Jordi Alba doesn't play for Swansea and he doesn't face attackers from the Premier League, he faces the best players in the world while playing for Barcelona. Alves was a part of the greatest football club sides ever and not only was he just a part of the side, but he was an important player for them, in both attack and defense. Coleman has played for Everton in the Premier League and had a great year, like Rafael had a great year last season. If we are going to compare Coleman to Alves and Jordi Alba, why are you not doing with Rafael then?

It is completely bonkers to say Coleman is better going forward than Alves, it really is. At his best, Alves will not be even in the same zip code as Coleman.

 

[Nighteyes]

Once again, if some RB called Colemanito was doing what Coleman was doing but at Real Madrid, people would be calling him one of the best attacking RBs. If Jordi Alba played for Swansea would he get even half the praise he gets as a Barca player? When real Madrid signed Cicinho some years back (we were linked with him too) he was immediately considered one of the best attacking RBs but he flopped miserably. Alves has the immediate 'advantage' of playing for a world famous elite team. Im not saying Coleman is better going forward, but its not crazy to say so either. Goals are goals.

Some United fans think Rafael is the best RB in the league for instance and IMO that's not the case. If he played for a lower team he'd be seen as a good player with great potential but too injury prone to hack it at the top.

Except he's not doing it at Real Madrid.

He's no where near the level of Alves or even Evra ta his peak for us. It's scandalous to even suggest that.

 

[footballgirl07]

To me, Coleman is two years older than Rafael. In two years time, I expect Rafael to be far far better than Coleman is currently at the age of soon to be 26. Rafael does have lots of potential still but we know he has fitness trouble. However, he should still be well on course to be better than Coleman is at that age. Saying that, I honestly don't believe Coleman is at Rafaels level now anyway. Good player, yes. But as others have pointed out, hasn't been tested regularly by top players and in the top competitions. It is a shame that Rafas best season for us, was followed up by Moyes taking over. He really could of pushed on from his best. At the same time, at least he looks happy playing again this season and started looking like the player he was in 12/13 compared to last season. Attacking, fast paced football suits Rafaels game to the ground and LVG has brought that back to united.

 

[united_99]

I'd imagine he is better than Alves at this stage yeah.


I must have missed this part, when was Coleman found out at a higher level or can you see the future?

Baines was while playing with England and most ppl here (irrespective of the team they supported) wanted Cole for the WC despite him hardly playing last season.
Regarding Coleman noone knows yet. There have been many examples where a good player for a midtable team couldn't make the step up (including current United players) and until Coleman proves he can make the step up (he might get some chance in the EL this season) we can't just assume he can.

 

[Loublaze]

Except he's not doing it at Real Madrid.

He's no where near the level of Alves or even Evra ta his peak for us. It's scandalous to even suggest that.

Its not scandalous at all. You sound like an elitist, only players who have played for one of the big teams are worthy of high praise it seems. I don't even rate Coleman that highly, im just saying he's shown that he can be just as good an attacking fullback as any

 

[Shimo]

Even if Rafael is a bit lesser than Coleman or any of the other names being compared to - what he brings in terms of drive and desire is something we have so little through the squad that alone, to me, makes me hands down the better player for United than any of the others.

 

[Bwuk]

What worries me is Rafael is always seen as young and learning, and people let him off with rash mistakes because of this.

He's what, 24 and been playing week in week out when fit for years now. I really hope in the summer we get another right back to give him competition, and for when he's injured.

I love him but I think we over rate him on the caf. Zabaleta, Ivanovic, Coleman and arguably Clyne are better than him at the moment.

 

[DWelbz19]

What worries me is Rafael is always seen as young and learning, and people let him off with rash mistakes because of this.

He's what, 24 and been playing week in week out when fit for years now. I really hope in the summer we get another right back to give him competition, and for when he's injured.

I love him but I think we over rate him on the caf. Zabaleta, Ivanovic, Coleman and arguably Clyne are better than him at the moment.

Christ.

 

[Bwuk]

Christ.

Clyne has been great for Southampton.

 

[DWelbz19]

Clyne has been great for Southampton.

And Rafael has been great for us. Clyne has been good going forward, but defensively he's very average and completely unaware of his surrondings.

 

[Manucho the boss]

Clyne has been great for Southampton.

He's younger than you'd think too, has an old look about him.

Liverpool should have replaced Johnson with him but I don't think Southampton fans would accept them selling any more players to Liverpool.