Would you sack LVG if it meant we could get Guardiola at the end of the season?

[sullydnl]

Only when a player fails to perform. No one gets rid of a player that's doing what's asked of them.

Players who are doing what's asked of them are very often replaced by superior players.

 

[pcaming]

It's a serious dilemma, it's a bit of a douche thing to do, but long term it would it be best for the club? Likely. We have Louis for only one more year, what do we do after that when all the top coaches are gone? I am firmly of the view that Giggs is way too much of a risk.

So if it's certain that it's in the summer or never for a top coach (not just Pep), then I'd have to say yes. If they're still on the market for another year, then no, let him complete his rebuilding.

 

[sammsky1]

In answer to the OP 'Would you sack LVG if it meant we could get Guardiola at the end of the season?'

NO and for several key reasons:

1. If LVG had achieved targets set to him by the board, its unethical and unbecoming of a club which aspires to a different set of values from the norm. It sets a nasty precedent for the future; why not then also sack Guardiola in 18 months time, once AN Other manager is suspected to be better than he?

2. I think its unproven that Guardiola is a world class coach, or at least not the guy you go to when rebuilding a squad. At both Barcelona and Munchen he inherited one of the best squads ever assembled in club football history, was in a monopoly or duopoly league and had access to unlimited funds. With all that backing he simply helped them achieve their potential; many other managers would have been able to achieve the same.

3. If Guardiola left Bayern now, the longevity angle is equally flawed as he would appear to suffer the same short term syndrome many accuse Mourinho of. He could not cope with the pressure of Barcelona and would have jumped ship at Munich. His past history would suggest he would only last at Old Trafford for a few years and not guarantee the longer term stability many seek.


I'm one of those who is 100% happy with LVG's progress and the status of the club right now and am aghast at the criticism he is getting from some fans and ex-players. In fact, if LVG can deliver a league title and serious progress in the CL, I'd like him to stay a few more years so he can finish the job he started. I wholeheartedly believe he is on the right path and he has my full support.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Yep. I really like Louis but Pep is as close to a sure thing without the Mourinho bitchiness as possible. For the greater long term good, it would be done.

 

[sizzling sausages]

Yeah you do, if a better player in the same position becomes available you absolutely do.

I guess the analogy falls down because you only have one manager, whereas you have multiple players competing for one position. But if you have a fantastic centre back, say, but an upgrade becomes available, you buy the upgrade and bench the capable and loyal but inferior player. And sell him if he is struggling to get games or would prefer to play first team football.

It happens all the time.

Players who are doing what's asked of them are very often replaced by superior players.

Yeah, you both are probably right actually, tbf. Although I really should have said players that are doing a good job (like van Gaal is) rather than just someone that's doing what's asked of them. Then they're a lot more unlikely to be replaced.

 

[Adebesi]

Yeah, you both are probably right actually, tbf. Although I really should have said players that are doing a good job (like van Gaal is) rather than just someone that's doing what's asked of them. Then they're a lot more unlikely to be replaced.

The comparison that popped into my head first was Heinze and Evra. Heinze was playing really well, I dont think anyone would have singled the left back position out as a problem area. But Evra came along and ousted him. Its just the way it goes in football.

 

[Ødegaard]

Yes, we go for it!

 

[sun_tzu]

I don't see LVG going even when his contract is up - they will make him Director of Football with Giggs as a head coach.

I cant see us appointing anybody but giggs so unless pep fancies an assistant coaches role it wont happen - he will probably stay at Bayern if he is happy there.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Haven't we already announced that Giggs will be our next manager?

 

[Sky1981]

If pep got a 3 years contract and ditch us on the second year to manage barcelona mk2 or madrid or chelsea...

We would have cnut him to no end.

No, I'm ussually pragmatic but there's a limit to pragmatism.

 

[Adebesi]

If pep got a 3 years contract and ditch us on the second year to manage barcelona mk2 or madrid or chelsea...

We would have cnut him to no end.

No, I'm ussually pragmatic but there's a limit to pragmatism.

But this is the point, if we chose not to do it to him it wouldnt make it any less likely it would happen to us. Players and managers take the best opportunities when they arise, regardless of contract. Clubs do the same when it comes to players, I dont see why we shouldnt when it comes to managers as well.

I am saying this as someone who has advocated the "giving the manager time" strategy in both the last two managerial regimes. But this isnt a question of giving the manager time, its about securing the future. Especially considering there arent a massive number of top tier managers who could do the job around at the moment, and every time one of our rivals snaps one of them up, there is one less.

I see this as a bit like the British manager thing. If we hold ourselves up to a high moral standard that others dont have we are putting ourselves at a disadvantage.

 

[imperi]

But this is the point, if we chose not to do it to him it wouldnt make it any less likely it would happen to us. Players and managers take the best opportunities when they arise, regardless of contract. Clubs do the same when it comes to players, I dont see why we shouldnt when it comes to managers as well.

I am saying this as someone who has advocated the "giving the manager time" strategy in both the last two managerial regimes. But this isnt a question of giving the manager time, its about securing the future. Especially considering there arent a massive number of top tier managers who could do the job around at the moment, and every time one of our rivals snaps one of them up, there is one less.

I see this as a bit like the British manager thing. If we hold ourselves up to a high moral standard that others dont have we are putting ourselves at a disadvantage.

Clubs with a graveyard of managers are generally badly run. There is always someone better to find in this extremely opportunistic football world. So if Pep is not performing as we would want to in 1 year, the same sentiment holds and we should trade him for someone better. That is the problem of it all.. Also there is no long term planning anymore. Trainers like Guardiola or Van Gaal want it all to go their way, so they will not tolerate intervention. Changing strategies all the time, it will ruin the club on the long term and defines bad management.

 

[SirAF]

I would love to have Guardiola here but if Louie mounts a proper title challenge this season it wouldn't sit right with me to terminate him.

 

[SirAF]

The comparison that popped into my head first was Heinze and Evra. Heinze was playing really well, I dont think anyone would have singled the left back position out as a problem area. But Evra came along and ousted him. Its just the way it goes in football.

Nah, Heinze was never the same player after he did his knee.

 

[Adebesi]

Clubs with a graveyard of managers are generally badly run. There is always someone better to find in this extremely opportunistic football world. So if Pep is not performing as we would want to in 1 year, the same sentiment holds and we should trade him for someone better. That is the problem of it all.. Also there is no long term planning anymore. Trainers like Guardiola or Van Gaal want it all to go their way, so they will not tolerate intervention. Changing strategies all the time, it will ruin the club on the long term and defines bad management.

I understand where you are coming from. In this case I see it differently because we are not talking about changing Van Gaal because he isnt working, we are talking about a manager soon to retire and a great manager who (in this hypothetical scenario outlined in the OP) is available and may not be a year down the line. I would never want to start changing managers as often as Chelsea have, for example, but we wouldnt be. This is a very black and white way of looking at it.

If the question is should we sack Van Gaal now (or at the end of the season) because of results (if we got third, say), or style of football or something like that I would be less inclined to do it. In that case it is a classic question of giving the manager time. But this situation is about securing the manager we want, in a sense getting rid of the manager we have is almost incidental.

If the shadow of Giggs as our next manager didnt loom over the club so heavily I might be a bit more on the fence. I just think with Klopp having gone to Liverpool as well, we have to think carefully about our next step and I wouldnt want to leave too much to chance.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I don't see why not. How is sacking a manager to get a significantly better one wrong?

It's not. It's the assumption that Guardiola is a better manager than Van Gaal which is wrong.

 

[NK86]

It's not. It's the assumption that Guardiola is a better manager than Van Gaal which is wrong.

Assumption? How is that an assumption based on what each has achieved so far?

 

[Needham]

It's not. It's the assumption that Guardiola is a better manager than Van Gaal which is wrong.

Guardiola is indisputably a better manager for 2015. Which is not to say that LVG has completely lost it. But it's fanciful to think he is as acute in the present day game as Guardiola.

 

[MoBeats]

It would be bad for the club, it would look bad and it's just generally a shit idea. Especially as LvG has us pretty much unbeatable. Stupid stupid idea.
That'll be a no from me.

 

[Pyroblazer]

If we can do it like Bayern, make an agreement with Pep that he will join us in the summer, then yes. I like LvG's work and I don't have anything against him, but similiar to Bayern with Heynckes we need to think about the club first and van Gaal won't be here long-term anyway. Does it make sense to continue only for a year and to miss out the chance on Pep, who would be the perfect candidate after him and can give us a few years more? Van Gaal already said anyway that he is looking forward to retire and enjoy life with his wife, so maybe we don't even have to sack him, make an agreement with him that he will get money for his remaining year, can retire one year earlier and we are going with Pep. If we don't go for him then van Gaal will retire that year after anyway and we could be in a position where we don't find a proper replacement if Pep joins City and Ancelotti got a new job too. Bayern did the right thing, it was maybe not 100% fair for Jupp the way he need to make place, but Bayern made the right decision for the club long-term.

That said, it seems like Pep will stay at Bayern for 1,2 seasons more anyway, which could be good for us hopefully. I don't think he will be available this summer, but if then we need to act imo.

 

[dwd]

I would love to have Guardiola here but if Louie mounts a proper title challenge this season it wouldn't sit right with me to terminate him.

We would only terminate his contract, we wouldn't actually kill him, I hope.

 

[Drifter]

Moyes could also be available. The job is Giggs .

 

[SirAF]

We would only terminate his contract, we wouldn't actually kill him, I hope.

I don't know.. remember that Ed Woodward is The Equaliser!

 

[Sky1981]

But this is the point, if we chose not to do it to him it wouldnt make it any less likely it would happen to us. Players and managers take the best opportunities when they arise, regardless of contract. Clubs do the same when it comes to players, I dont see why we shouldnt when it comes to managers as well.

I am saying this as someone who has advocated the "giving the manager time" strategy in both the last two managerial regimes. But this isnt a question of giving the manager time, its about securing the future. Especially considering there arent a massive number of top tier managers who could do the job around at the moment, and every time one of our rivals snaps one of them up, there is one less.

I see this as a bit like the British manager thing. If we hold ourselves up to a high moral standard that others dont have we are putting ourselves at a disadvantage.

If we did this, nobody would care about giving youth a chance, no manager would care about anything other than trophies because we didnt honor thay part of the deal.

No manager would commit wholeheartedly on our cause, we'd be a full time high prestige high paying jobs and that is all.

 

[Spoony]

We'd be crazy to missed out on him.

 

[Adebesi]

If we did this, nobody would care about giving youth a chance, no manager would care about anything other than trophies because we didnt honor thay part of the deal.

No manager would commit wholeheartedly on our cause, we'd be a full time high prestige high paying jobs and that is all.

I dont see it, myself. I dont think this would be the result. But as I said to someone else above I can see where you are coming from and I dont like the idea of judging managers prematurely. But this would not be an indictment of Van Gaal's performance necessarily (depending on how he performs between now and the end of the season) but more a recognition of his age.

I just dont think this would be as big a deal as some are making out. As @Pyroblazer said above, it is possible the whole thing could be arranged quite amicably.

 

[Zarlak]

I'd sack him at the end of the season in order to get Pep, but I wouldn't sack him half way through the season because then we'd have no manager.

Well aren't you kind.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Assumption? How is that an assumption based on what each has achieved so far?

You want to base it on achievements? Has Guardiola made it to a CL final with Bayern? Has Guardiola ever done a rebuild of a club? Has Guardiola ever won the CL with kids? Has Guardiola won any prize wihthout having the best players?

I think Guardiola is a good manager, he manages to have his players execute a difficult system convincingly, but you can't judge a manager's achievements without looking at the kind of job at hand and at the quality of the players.

 

[Kaos]

Yes, easily.

 

[Hed Zitin]

He has a season left, let's secure the best manager possible for the future. It's not worth thinking short term and missing out on a great candidate for the longer term.

I worry the players will slack off knowing he's going and a new man will come in. We've seen it before with Sir Alex.

 

[Zarlak]

I like how we all cried laughing at Chelsea for sacking Avram Grant after winning a trophy and not being given a chance in favour of a manager of a higher calibre but yet a lot of you are happy to let go of a much, much, much better manager who has done a good job of sorting out the most concerning gaps in our team that we bemoaned SAF himself never fixing to bring in a manager who plays a very similar style of football to the one you're all currently in hysterics about in the FF's. That's not hypocritical at all.

 

[ChrisNelson]

I think it would be harsh to sack LvG just to bring in Pep. As great a manager as he is, he has unfinished business at Bayern and is unlikely to even be available for a while yet.
Plus if you look at LvG's record this season we're well set. There's no doubt in my mind we'd already be through the Champions League Group but for Shaw's injury in Eindhoven.
Then there's the defence which he seems to have worked wonders on - only 1 goal conceded in 7 games and this is an area which had been a weakness since Vidic/ Ferdinand stopped being good.
He's managed to hold on to DDG which I think we'd all given up on.
We're 2 points of the top of the League which is fantastic considering how well City & Arsenal have started the season.
If Pep was in charge would we be top? 5 points clear? I think we just need to let nature take its course, at the moment it's difficult to deny LvG is doing a good job. It reminds me a bit of Fergie's final season in charge, it may not be the greatest quality squad in PL history but it's in with a shot of the Title.

 

[kundalini]

LVG needs a serious title challenge in order to retain his job. If we finish a close 2nd or better then I would let him stay for the final year of his contract. Reaching the CL final would also be sufficient. If we finish a distant 3rd then I would be looking to see who would be willing to take the job. If a decent candidate wanted the job then I would fire LVG.

So far I have been completely underwhelmed by the football played and the results achieved since LVG took over. I would have expected Moyes (who I don't rate in the slightest) to get 4th had he spent £150m gross (£100m net) transforming the squad to his liking. I would have expected a decent manager to get 4th with only minimal changes (£0 net spend) to the squad Moyes/Giggs left. Had Giggs been given the job, I would have expected him to achieve 4th or better given we had no CL football.

The idea that LVG is preparing the ground for the next manager is complete nonsense. I'm sure the next manager will be absolutely delighted to have so many players aged 30+ (Schweinsteiger, Rooney, Young, Valencia, Carrick) with several years still on their contract. The deadwood (I don't like the expression) in the current squad is little different from that which LVG took over. LVG complains about the lack of pace in the side, having got rid of several players with genuine pace.

 

[sun_tzu]

The idea that LVG is preparing the ground for the next manager is complete nonsense. I'm sure the next manager will be absolutely delighted to have so many players aged 30+ (Schweinsteiger, Rooney, Young, Valencia, Carrick) with several years still on their contract. The deadwood (I don't like the expression) in the current squad is little different from that which LVG took over.

They probably wont be too disappointed to have martial and depay either

is LVG changing the youth set up / coaching methods as well - I always thought that was supposedly a big part of what we wanted him to do and he tends to get a lot of credit for improving the barca youth set up and of course came through the coaching ranks at ajax who had an amazing youth set up at the time?

 

[SoCross]

The idea that LVG is preparing the ground for the next manager is complete nonsense. I'm sure the next manager will be absolutely delighted to have so many players aged 30+ (Schweinsteiger, Rooney, Young, Valencia, Carrick) with several years still on their contract. The deadwood (I don't like the expression) in the current squad is little different from that which LVG took over. LVG complains about the lack of pace in the side, having got rid of several players with genuine pace.

Yeah so true. A pity Van Gaal isn't leaving behind more than a dozen players aged 26 and less for the next manager...

 

[Pyroblazer]

The idea that LVG is preparing the ground for the next manager is complete nonsense. I'm sure the next manager will be absolutely delighted to have so many players aged 30+ (Schweinsteiger, Rooney, Young, Valencia, Carrick) with several years still on their contract. The deadwood (I don't like the expression) in the current squad is little different from that which LVG took over. LVG complains about the lack of pace in the side, having got rid of several players with genuine pace.

Really? I think that's the one thing where pretty much every United fan should give LvG credit for. 5 players over 30 is not a problem at all and Carrick is the only one close to reitrement age-wise, a 30 or 31-year-old player is not really a huge problem at all, on the other side you have De Gea, Shaw, Darmian, Smalling, Jones, Blind, Schneiderlin, Pereira, Lingard, Adnan, Mata, Martial, Memphis, Wilson in our ranks, that's a pretty good foundation and he will also try his best to add more pace up front in his last year, no doubt about that.

 

[Maccaa]

I like how we all cried laughing at Chelsea for sacking Avram Grant after winning a trophy and not being given a chance in favour of a manager of a higher calibre but yet a lot of you are happy to let go of a much, much, much better manager who has done a good job of sorting out the most concerning gaps in our team that we bemoaned SAF himself never fixing to bring in a manager who plays a very similar style of football to the one you're all currently in hysterics about in the FF's. That's not hypocritical at all.

Completely agree with this. Pretty embarrassing with all the threads we have laughing at our rivals when our fans are coming out with stuff like this theirselves.

 

[Balu]

If we can do it like Bayern, make an agreement with Pep that he will join us in the summer, then yes. I like LvG's work and I don't have anything against him, but similiar to Bayern with Heynckes we need to think about the club first and van Gaal won't be here long-term anyway. Does it make sense to continue only for a year and to miss out the chance on Pep, who would be the perfect candidate after him and can give us a few years more? Van Gaal already said anyway that he is looking forward to retire and enjoy life with his wife, so maybe we don't even have to sack him, make an agreement with him that he will get money for his remaining year, can retire one year earlier and we are going with Pep. If we don't go for him then van Gaal will retire that year after anyway and we could be in a position where we don't find a proper replacement if Pep joins City and Ancelotti got a new job too. Bayern did the right thing, it was maybe not 100% fair for Jupp the way he need to make place, but Bayern made the right decision for the club long-term.

That said, it seems like Pep will stay at Bayern for 1,2 seasons more anyway, which could be good for us hopefully. I don't think he will be available this summer, but if then we need to act imo.

I don't think we would have terminated an existing contract though. It's speculation of course and we didn't handle it perfectly in the media, but in the end Heynckes' contract ran out and we don't even know if he wanted to continue or not.

 

[VeevaVee]

If LVG genuinely doesn't plan to stay any longer than another season and we'd have no chance of getting Guardiola at that point as stated, then it would kind of make sense wouldn't it?
If we didn't get him then anyone else is going to be a bigger gamble. He's the best option we potentially have.

 

[Ramshock]

If we could get Guardiola at the end of the season would you push LVG out the door a year early to make it happen?

Best thread ever right here, well done kiddo!